Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th October 2009, 18:21   #61
Senior - BHPian
 
nitrous's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UAE/Lon/Madras
Posts: 6,966
Thanked: 282 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
no its not.I'm positive its the 475 block with a dohc head and delphi common rail, and that its a popular misconception that they are derived from the TUD5.
Do they have identical bore and stroke values?
nitrous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2009, 18:55   #62
Senior - BHPian
 
greenhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: TN-14
Posts: 6,833
Thanked: 1,309 Times
Default

I think there is a small difference. one is 1396cc and the other is 1405cc.
greenhorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2009, 22:30   #63
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

The indica engine is definitely derived from the TUD5 . The indigo dicor also have the 1.4 power plant . So i am guessing it has to be the same block .
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2009, 22:44   #64
Senior - BHPian
 
greenhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: TN-14
Posts: 6,833
Thanked: 1,309 Times
Default

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tml#post215888 (What Indian cars are available abroad?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
I'm afraid none of your sources is authentic and reliable. There is a lot of trash available on the Internet that needs to be filtered, before forming opinions. Among the sources you quote are some car-hire companies! What more can one say.

There is a popular misconception that Indica's engine is Peugeot-derived. Partly, it is attributable to European journalists who, when called upon to review the Indica/City Rover, could not believe (nor wanted their readers to believe) that a third world company could design and manufacture cars. Hence, they misinterpreted Indica's French connection to mean that its engine was Peugeot-derived.

As a matter of fact, the Indica engine was designed and developed by Tata Motors indigenously. Had they copied Peugeot TUD-5, they would have been sued by the French company. On the other hand, had Tata Motors produced the engine under licence from Peugeot, they would not have concealed this fact. Rather, they would have highlighted this and benefitted from Peugeot's goodwill.

While designing the Indica, Tatas always had the international car market in mind. Therefore, they got the Indica engine "validated" from a French certifying agency to ensure that the engine gets certified as a Tata original and nobody challenges it as an unauthorised copy. That is the only French connection the Indica engine has had. It seems, some people mistook the connection for a collaboration with Peugeot or worse, a reverse engineering by Tata Motors, China-style. Come on guys, don't belittle the Tatas. Their car may not be the best in the market, but for years, they've had and still have, the best auto R&D facility in India, Maruti included. Their efforts should be encouraged by all Indians.
greenhorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2009, 10:27   #65
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,638 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
The indica engine is definitely derived from the TUD5 . The indigo dicor also have the 1.4 power plant . So i am guessing it has to be the same block .
Can you quote some source? I know its mentioned on Wikipedia, but even I can edit wikipedia to say that the indica does 0-100 in 5 seconds.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2009, 12:00   #66
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Can you quote some source? I know its mentioned on Wikipedia, but even I can edit wikipedia to say that the indica does 0-100 in 5 seconds.

Try googling . I read in an earlier post that the European media was the one which published that the indica engine was the same as the TUD5 engine .

Why have the Tatas not denied it or peugeot denied it ? Of course , you may say that it might not matter , but i think in Europe it does matter .Peugeot would not allow their name to be slandered across in eu .

Forget the indica , If Tatas had so much of expertise in designing engines why did they have to transisiton to Fiat engines ?

The Tatas before the indica launch or after the launch of Indica have not released an indigenously designed engine .. so I believe the Indica engine is definitely a derivative of some other engine .
the bore and stroke of indica might have been reduced to reduce the displacement . the bore of tu3 and the bore of indica is the same though .
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2009, 12:10   #67
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,638 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Try googling . I read in an earlier post that the European media was the one which published that the indica engine was the same as the TUD5 engine .
Thats what the earlier post said, its a misconception with some section of media

Quote:
Why have the Tatas not denied it or peugeot denied it ? Of course , you may say that it might not matter , but i think in Europe it does matter .Peugeot would not allow their name to be slandered across in eu .
If Peugot had claimed Royalties, only then Tata will offer a press release, otherwise why? Lots of things get published in media, many of them rumours, about many countries, yet companies do not deny or agree to all of the,
Quote:
Forget the indica , If Tatas had so much of expertise in designing engines why did they have to transisiton to Fiat engines ?
Fiat has been selling cars all over the world, why did they come to to Tata to sell their cars here?
Its called technology sharing. When two countries enter an agreement like this, they try to get the best. Fiat engine is better than what tata managed in house. So it went with Fiat.
Dicor engine can go 90BHP on power, but then Tata would have had to design a gearbox from ground up to handle the additional torque.
Quote:
The Tatas before the indica launch or after the launch of Indica have not released an indigenously designed engine .. so I believe the Indica engine is definitely a derivative of some other engine .
Huh, this is funny. So any time a company comes with an engine, its supposed to be a derivative. In a way all engines are derivative of the Otto Diesel engine invented more than 100 years ago.
As for engine design now, the game has changed.. Instead of reinventing the wheel mfrs are now collaborating. For example Bosch and Delphi supply common rails to many companies. Even competitors collaborate
Just because Tata collaborated with Fiat, it does not mean it cannot design engines on its own. Its just more cost effective to leverage existing tech
Here is a chart you may find interesting which will show you even companies like GM are using engines of other mfrs where they deem fit
DiCOR - What went wrong?-cargenealogyv1c.jpg
Quote:
the bore and stroke of indica might have been reduced to reduce the displacement . the bore of tu3 and the bore of indica is the same though .
Indica 1.4 engine block is capable of making 100bhp in petrol form(Tata indigo XL petrol is an example), and 90bhp in the diesel form. There is no way you can achieve such on TUD engine. Moreover, it revs upto 5000rpm.
If Tata had copied Peugot engine, peugot would have filed a lawsuit.
If tech was licensed, it would have been advertised. In automotive industry, its clearly mentioned when tech is licensed, nobody keeps licensing agreements top secret, and its not possible too
What European media is saying "Tata copied TUD5". If that was the truth Peugot would have gone to court.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 29th October 2009 at 12:11.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2009, 12:13   #68
Senior - BHPian
 
greenhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: TN-14
Posts: 6,833
Thanked: 1,309 Times
Default

@ greatmana - just because enough people repeat it does not mean it is the truth. I'd prefer a reputed verifiable source, or someone who has first hand experience with both engines.
Do you ? I'm curious how you got this info

Last edited by greenhorn : 29th October 2009 at 12:15.
greenhorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2009, 14:23   #69
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

[quote=tsk1979;1554925]Thats what the earlier post said, its a misconception with some section of media

If Peugot had claimed Royalties, only then Tata will offer a press release, otherwise why? Lots of things get published in media, many of them rumours, about many countries, yet companies do not deny or agree to all of the,

Well, the design might have been sold , just like the renault dies and expect peugeot and Tata to be tight lipped .


Fiat has been selling cars all over the world, why did they come to to Tata to sell their cars here?

Fiat has been selling technology as well. example would be swift diesel . I think it dosent matter to Fiat wether they sell vehicles or technology . All that matters is the bottom line , That is what i think .

Its called technology sharing. When two countries enter into an agreement like this, they try to get the best. Fiat engine is better than what tata managed in house. So it went with Fiat.


Dicor engine can go 90BHP on power, but then Tata would have had to design a gearbox from ground up to handle the additional torque.

That is what i am trying to point out . they need to design GB , clutches , Engines ,but they have never done . The reason why AL is the most preffered vehicle of late in the CV segment is the constant evolution of their GB , clutches , engines etc . Do you think the indica and the dicor have the same clutch and the gearbox ?


Huh, this is funny. So any time a company comes with an engine, its supposed to be a derivative.
I never said that it was a derivative , all i said was I read it online on many sites

In a way all engines are derivative of the Otto Diesel engine invented more than 100 years ago.

There has been so much of technological advancements that the otto engine can be equated to the period when man lived in the caves . My point was that the engine may not have been designed by Tata , but must have been a derivate of the TUD5 ,considering the post and the pre launch of the Indica . . IDEA did the body and similarly the engine and the GB could have been sourced . That is what i want to point out .

As for engine design now, the game has changed.. Instead of reinventing the wheel mfrs are now collaborating. For example Bosch and Delphi supply common rails to many companies. Even competitors collaborate
Just because Tata collaborated with Fiat, it does not mean it cannot design engines on its own. Its just more cost effective to leverage existing tech .

that was the point . Tata might have gone in for a derivative of the TUD5 rather than design on its own due to cost factors . Designing a motorcycle engine itself costs around 5-6 million dollars . Even the Tata nano engine was designed by Bosch . If the Tatas cant design a small petrol engine even after 10 yrs of manufacturing cars for the Nano ,how do you expect them to have designed the diesel engine 10 yrs back ?


Indica 1.4 engine block is capable of making 100bhp in petrol form(Tata indigo XL petrol is an example), and 90bhp in the diesel form.
There is no way you can achieve such on TUD engine. Moreover, it revs upto 5000rpm.

The diesel indica revs at 5000 rpm ?or the petrol one ? or the dicor one ?


Last edited by greatmana2000 : 29th October 2009 at 14:31.
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2009, 09:08   #70
Senior - BHPian
 
greenhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: TN-14
Posts: 6,833
Thanked: 1,309 Times
Default

Ok, i stumbled onto a list of turbos, which lists the Garret GT1444V for a 90 bhp 1.4L Tata Diesel Engine. and this was in 2006 or 7. Not to be confused with the petrol 1.4L blocks or the current 1.3L quadrajet engine.
GT1444V indica - Google Search
The specs are not limited to one site alone. its all over the web. So what happened to this particular engine ?
greenhorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2009, 00:20   #71
Newbie
 
Manpreet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 1
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

Hi DerAlte ,I have gone through with numerous problem with my 2.2ltrs Dicor yes the fuel injection nozzle have failed in my case they have changed the entire nozzle set twice that too within 6 months time, In second time they changed the upper half head completely thanxs to their excellent warranty service which has covered all till now.
And as far reliability is concerned, metallurgically its rugged no doubt.

i have face problems with turbo & power steering hose pipe, diesel return rail pipes which are of good quality but connected with very inferior quality of connectors which tend to crack and leak.
Tata vehicle are genetically born with few nig nags but the service stations plays an important role here, if they are technically sound you will not come to know about 95% of your car problem which they tend to rectify before it bubbles out.
But no more cribbing basically it’s a good value for money all you have to do is to get it tune with your taste of interest.
Now after 70,000 kms in two years its running absolutely fine and I am having a good time with my truck.
I have done two three modification by myself in suspension which have prove to be good till now.

Last edited by Eddy : 15th November 2009 at 01:16. Reason: Remoing formatting tags. Pl do not copy-paste from an external editor. Thanks
Manpreet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2010, 20:05   #72
BHPian
 
rpmx1000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 392
Thanked: 29 Times
Question Why was Tata's 1.4 DICOR a design lemon?

Folks,
I am genuinely curious as to why do folks on the forum feel that the Tata 1.4 DICOR was a design lemon as has been confidently stated in some threads in the forum. I searched (on tbhp as well as outside) and could not find the answers. AFAIK, it is still doing duty in the Indigo CS which is selling reasonably well (atleast in Bangalore).It also had a VGT tuned like the Fiesta TDCi and had good low-end torque as per reports. The top speed and refinement were also OK compared to the TDI.

I also saw some ads by Bangalore TML dealers that say it has an ARAI certified mileage of 23.57 kpl compared to 19.xx for the QJD.

I'm sure there are a lot more guys in the know. Can the gurus educate me? I personally feel the Indigo CS is a good value buy with the DICOR. Want to get the right perspective from a curiosity point of view.If was really bad, would'nt Tata have withdrawn it? And please please substantiate with facts.I want the true picture to come out.
rpmx1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2010, 20:18   #73
Senior - BHPian
 
svsantosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hosur
Posts: 3,309
Thanked: 1,388 Times
Default

Read this. (Indica DICOR - Taken for a spin, and then ripped.)

I had a good feedback on the Dicor. It sure felt like a Indica on Steriods, but sold too few to even raise a Lemon Tag. Yes, It is rumoured that engine did have LOTS of initial troubles. Bookings for Indigo CS Dicor was stopped for 2-3 months, and after some major changes (unknown to us) the Dicor is doing its rounds in small #s.

Had it been a tad smoother, it may have taken TATA to a new level, afterall this was and is the only Desi-CRDI -- but it was not to be...!!
svsantosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2010, 20:23   #74
Senior - BHPian
 
greenhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: TN-14
Posts: 6,833
Thanked: 1,309 Times
Default

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ent-wrong.html (DiCOR - What went wrong?)

all the indica dicor owners have some sort of issue, ranging from unintended acelleration during ac cutoff, to full fledged lawsuits. You havent seen the maintenance costs either.

plus there is the point of marginal utility. For a car with a USP of more for less, the dicor was less for more.

rpmx, if you dont mind merge this with my previous thread
greenhorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2010, 20:23   #75
BHPian
 
unni.ak's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 777
Thanked: 80 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmx1000 View Post
It also had a VGT tuned like the Fiesta TDCi and had good low-end torque as per reports.
Small correction, Fiesta has an FGT.
unni.ak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Honda Accord 3.0 V6 - What went wrong? Tejas@perioimpl Sedans 39 30th April 2014 21:59
The toyota 2010 recalls: what went wrong? What happened to the 'Toyota Way'? greenhorn The International Automotive Scene 6 11th May 2010 22:52
High Idling RPM. What went wrong? saurabhkum Technical Stuff 8 25th October 2007 20:00
What went wrong with Hyundai CRDI moodswings The Indian Car Scene 23 9th February 2007 16:53


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 09:57.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks