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Old 24th May 2010, 15:30   #106
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^^^
Not all DIcor went wrong. I have seen many friends driving them with out any problems for past 2 years.
and rajasthan is not the place where we have top quality fuel. Also mixing is very common.
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Old 24th May 2010, 15:51   #107
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Originally Posted by pranav_mankad View Post
I own an Indigo LX ( Not XL ) which has Dicor 1.4. Its been 3 years and I have not faced any issues with the engine - just thought of sharing my ownership experience for the engine in question.
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Originally Posted by wanderernomad View Post
Same is the case with me, I own a 1.4 DICOR and no issues till now since Aug 07.
Thats very nice to know.

And I own a Tata Safari 2.2 thats reliable. You probably have a different opinion on this.
We're exceptions.
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Old 25th May 2010, 07:58   #108
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Originally Posted by wanderernomad View Post
When you say problematic DICOR engines do you mean TATA only or you have used it as a generic term? I have DICOR engines of both TATA and Mahindra and am yet to face any fuel related problem despite filling up at some of the most atrocious and dubious places to fill. lol.
DiCOR is a Tata brand, same as CRDe for Mahindra, CRDi for Hyundai and TDCi for Ford. All of them use the common rain direct injection tech.

I should have been more specific. The 1.4L DICOR version of the 475DI engine used in the Indigo/Indica have been said to have issues, mostly with fueling system. I've driven a DiCOR Indigo CS, and it was so much better than the regular TDi. But, my mechanic who used to work at a Tata A.S.S, advised against the purchase, saying that the particular example had oil consumption issues. He also advised against DiCOR in general, saying that too many cars had trouble.

I'm aware that there are guys like wanderernomad, who have had no issues with their engines at all. I am happy for him, and I respect his opinion. But I feel that someone who works at a service center and sees thousands of vehicles come and go, would be in a better position to make a generalised opinion. I have known him personally for years.

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Then how come the Scorpio CRDe engines have been running on the same fuels for years now without any of the similar complaints. There is no excuse for Tata's shoddy quality control. They key difference is that Tata sources it's CRDe pumps from Lucas/Delphi and the Mahindra ones are from Bosch. Guess Delphi is not upto scratch here.
I have a friend who works at Bosch on ABS/EBD. He told me that when Tata approached them for technology, the first thing they wanted to know was if they had any off-the-shelf (read - low cost) products. Bosch told them that they didn't do that, that they tuned the system for each car.

I think that Tata tries to buy tech like that, and this has caused problems. Like the initially problematic Hitachi Fuel injection they had for the MPFi petrol Indica, or the Delphi common rail kit. Delphi doesn't seem to have done much R&D on the 475 DiCOR, and it shows up as inconsistency.

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
How about the CBU CRDe models like Range Rover, Merc, BMW, Volvo etc.. Shoudn't they also have the same issues with the fuel supply being imported completely along with the rest of the car?
I think the key issue here is price. Tata wants everything at the lowest cost, which is what the customer wants too. Let's not forget that Tata is the only Indian manufacturer that offered common rail tech at the sub-5 lakh (OTR) price point, on the Indica DiCOR. I agree that they didn't do it right, but credit is due for trying.

Last edited by vivekgk : 25th May 2010 at 08:03.
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Old 25th May 2010, 09:47   #109
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Well it would be wrong to say that Delphi or Tata do not optimize or do research.

Also presence of Bosch Injector service and huge investment suggest that such problems do occur. If you are happy with Bosch in India the actual credit goes to Maruti for Selling more then 2 million Swifts majority of which are CR Diesel and also FIAT for using Bosch in popular engine With such huge userbase general understanding of engine is better among Service personal and also it is possible for Bosch to have a very good service network.

About A.S.S person not recommending DiCoR I would say it is reflection of their utter incompetence , It is true that you can find Diesel Mechanic for Old Indica engine in every nook and corner and for Common Rail engine you should keep at-least 100 meter away from roadside shack.

But that is not a reason enough to keep away from a refined engine.

So in end it boils down to service , If you have noticed on this board Dicor Engine owners and Tata vehicle owners in general from Bangalore are generally happier compared to others in Southern region, and it is not just coincidence that Tata A.S.S is best over here compared to other places , Upgrades / updates were first done in Banaglore.

FYI Concord motors topped in J.D Powers survey this year.
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Old 25th May 2010, 10:38   #110
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wow, this thread is still in debate mode? I wonder why. I think because a percentage of people did not have problem we can assume there is not problem.
Well in automotive speak, as long as greater than 5% of cars have a problem, it is considered a major problem.
And its not that Tata does not admit there is a problem.
All safari 2.2s went for a ECU software change after every second safari went in for an injector change due to service light issues.
Mine went through that cycle quite a number of times.
Finally based on user R&D, not the R&D which they were supposed to do before launching, they realized its a software issue.
I know a lot of posts will not come "Toyota also had software issues". Well tell me, if tomorrow toyota cars start having high failure rates, will it be okay for everybody to have high failure rates?

Coming back to the topic, Tata works in super low cost mode when it comes to suppliers. Suppliers(there are quite a few of them in this forum), are told clearly, quality is secondary, bring down the price first.

Moreover, even though Tata claims to spend millions on R&D(and probably does), a lot of R&D is done at customer end.

Coming back to DICOR, Tata itself moved away to Fiats engine. Why? there is a lot of royalty and profit sharing involved in these deals, any mfr will always want to have its own engine wherever possible. If the DICOR was problem free, why would tata abandon the DICOR in its future products?

Its funny, the mfr has no belief in the 475 block based DICOR, and people go ga ga over it.

Tata has made 2 great Jugaads, one is the 1.4 DICOR and the other other was 3.0 Safari DICOR jugaad. 2.2 safari was the only engine which was "designed", and that too with AVL.

Surprisingly, thanks to the robust underpinnings of the 407 truck engine, the second really worked, but the former(475) was a fiasco. The engine could do 90bhp, but they could not find a gearbox to mate with it. The while drivetrain had reliability issues, and Delphi, well Delphi has its own financial ghosts cropping up now and then.

In its race for a cheap tech Tata bet on the wrong horse, and soon, the only Delphi injected engine willl be the 2.2 safari.
Even that is suspect, as rumours are abound that there will be a 1.9L fiat engine which will do duty in the newer models.

So tata is ditching the DICOR in favor of Fiat engines. So nothing really went wrong. Tata was desperate to field a common rail car quickly. They knew volumes will be low, taxi market will still buy the IDI indica or turbo indica. So they went with Delphi for the cheapest piece of kit.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 25th May 2010 at 10:40.
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Old 25th May 2010, 13:13   #111
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Ok I agree with what all has been written above. Plus there is no point arguing on this issue. Yes TATA has more inherent problems with its components than maybe any other manufacturer on Indian Roads today. But this does not translate into something "wrong" with their DICOR engines. As far as mechanics are concerned I ahve seen that they tend to rubbish the new technologies outright and if you press them hard enough for a reason they come up with some real gems.
If switching to FIAT engines is any criteria then maybe even Maruti has failed with their engines, maybe? I would only say that changing to newer or better technology available is a sign of growing awareness and responsibility of a manufacturer and not essentially translates into something wrong with the indigenous product of their own.
During the last ASEAN rally all TATA vehicles had one problem or the other and mostly were electrical related while there were none with Mahindras. But IMHO I think it means shoddy quality control practsies rather than something wrong with the way the electricals have been engineered. BUt as I said earlier lets stop arguing over this thing and put it to rest as TATAS have done, lol.
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Old 25th May 2010, 13:47   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderernomad View Post
Ok I agree with what all has been written above. Plus there is no point arguing on this issue. Yes TATA has more inherent problems with its components than maybe any other manufacturer on Indian Roads today. But this does not translate into something "wrong" with their DICOR engines. As far as mechanics are concerned I ahve seen that they tend to rubbish the new technologies outright and if you press them hard enough for a reason they come up with some real gems.
Well when we say "something wrong" it means they are having more failures and problems than normal. Its wrong, not something right
Quote:
If switching to FIAT engines is any criteria then maybe even Maruti has failed with their engines, maybe?
It will be impossible for Maruti to have a problem with any of their diesel engines. After all they do not have any diesel engine, So no bamboo no flute, right
Quote:
I would only say that changing to newer or better technology available is a sign of growing awareness and responsibility of a manufacturer and not essentially translates into something wrong with the indigenous product of their own.
All mfrs prefer own engines, unless they lack an engine comparable to the engine on sale. Since Tata is going FIAT way, future support and maintenance for the 1.4 will start becoming an issue.

Quote:
During the last ASEAN rally all TATA vehicles had one problem or the other and mostly were electrical related while there were none with Mahindras. But IMHO I think it means shoddy quality control practsies rather than something wrong with the way the electricals have been engineered. BUt as I said earlier lets stop arguing over this thing and put it to rest as TATAS have done, lol.
Quality is the a part of the engineering process, not something external. So if QC is shoddy, it translates to poor engineering. Good companies consider QC folks to be part and parcel of R&D, not some external certifying body who are there just to cause trouble.
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Old 25th May 2010, 14:44   #113
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It is not that Tata has abandoned the 1.4L block DiCOR, as some people here seem to be assuming. From 53.5 PS NA to 65 PS Turbo to 70 PS TDI (all 1405 CC, 8V) to the current 1396 CC 16V VGT-equipped DiCOR, Tata has improved the 1.4 block substantially over the years. This process will continue in future, notwithstanding the collaboration with Fiat. Bosch is keen to increase its footprint among TM engines and who knows, future versions of 1.4 might well be Bosch-based. After all, Tata didn't go with Delphi for the ultra cheap Nano! A 1.5 L version of the 1.4 L block also exists. So take it easy guys, the desi engine is here to stay!

Incidentally, the recently introduced BS-4 CS is also DiCOR-equipped and will perhaps increase the engine's popularity.

Last edited by directinjection : 25th May 2010 at 14:55.
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Old 26th May 2010, 20:02   #114
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Well as per my discussion with a senior engineer , Bosch CR components are used in Multijet engines in Tata and Fiat vehicles and they also suffer from same fate due to adulterated fuel but Bosch has good service facilities for injector cleaning. An A.S.S can get the injector cleaned in same day from Bosch. An injector cleaning machine costs carores of rupees and Bosch has established service network at all major centres. Where as Delphi lacks this backup , Delphi just replaces injectors under warranty may be because the installed base is not as big as bosh the kind of investment required in service network is not put in.
@Amit: Service is secondary to the problem. My point was the the Scorpio CRDe is not prone to this issue so the matter of resolving it becomes moot.

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Also with CRDI engines operating at lower pressure this problem is less severe so while older Scorpio CRDe fared quite well mHwack is more vulnerable.
I do agree that the second gen CRD engines with higher pressure injectors are more prone to problems with bad fuel. However, both mhawk and 2.2 VVT safari has the second gen CRD technology. But no mhawk owner on team-bhp has reported a fuel injector issue, but Safari 2.2 VVTI owners have had issues related to the injector.
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Old 26th May 2010, 21:14   #115
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Coming back to DICOR, Tata itself moved away to Fiats engine. Why? there is a lot of royalty and profit sharing involved in these deals, any mfr will always want to have its own engine wherever possible. If the DICOR was problem free, why would tata abandon the DICOR in its future products?

Its funny, the mfr has no belief in the 475 block based DICOR, and people go ga ga over it.

Tata has made 2 great Jugaads, one is the 1.4 DICOR and the other other was 3.0 Safari DICOR jugaad. 2.2 safari was the only engine which was "designed", and that too with AVL.

So tata is ditching the DICOR in favor of Fiat engines. So nothing really went wrong. Tata was desperate to field a common rail car quickly. They knew volumes will be low, taxi market will still buy the IDI indica or turbo indica. So they went with Delphi for the cheapest piece of kit.
Correct me if i'm wrong here. But isn't the CR4 engine on Indigo e-CS the renamed DiCOR itself? Atleast the tech. specs. seem to point so.
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Old 27th May 2010, 08:50   #116
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@ amit: this is what i tried to explain before but dint want to get into an argument. buddy, i have a friend who works in mahindra & the only engine issue is some mHawks has been excessive oil consumption. my mHawk has never had an engine issue. according to him, this has been solved & is not present in the refresh scorpios.

AFAIK, there was never any injector issue in the mHawks. its not just about me or "the bunch of mHawk owners in T-BHP" but its about mHawks in general.

my brother had a 2.2 DICOR which we sold off & main reason was the engine itself!

anyways, it summed up by TSK really well. if the DICOR has an issue, it has an issue... big deal! we can accept that fact & tatas should be aware of that & do a lot more R&D & QC.

Last edited by raj_5004 : 27th May 2010 at 08:52.
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Old 27th May 2010, 11:02   #117
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Originally Posted by dkamath View Post
Correct me if i'm wrong here. But isn't the CR4 engine on Indigo e-CS the renamed DiCOR itself? Atleast the tech. specs. seem to point so.
yes, but the Dicor variant is sold only in areas where necessity dictates ( BSIV only regions). Elsewhere, the TDI is still available

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
we can accept that fact & tatas should be aware of that & do a lot more R&D & QC.
And we should add, "at their own expense"

Last edited by greenhorn : 27th May 2010 at 11:04.
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Old 27th May 2010, 13:09   #118
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yes, but the Dicor variant is sold only in areas where necessity dictates ( BSIV only regions). Elsewhere, the TDI is still available
Then,Why Do We See CR4 Ad in Local newspapers in Kerala(AFAIK,No BS-IV Fuels available here)? The Ad Seems as if A "New" Engine is Launched For Indigo CS e-series with "outstanding" ARAI Verified Fuel Efficiency of 23kmpl.

Last edited by deepclutch : 27th May 2010 at 13:12.
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Old 27th May 2010, 13:27   #119
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they are advertising and selling it ( there was an eGLX in the showroom here, eLX is still not in stock here), but they're pushing the TDi more (check out vivekgk's purchase thread)
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Old 27th May 2010, 21:52   #120
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Coming back to the topic, Tata works in super low cost mode when it comes to suppliers. Suppliers(there are quite a few of them in this forum), are told clearly, quality is secondary, bring down the price first.
The quality control issue and the servicing issue is not really a DiCOR issue, it is then? It's a Tata issue. No sense blaming the engine design when shoddy quality is to blame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
Coming back to DICOR, Tata itself moved away to Fiats engine. Why? there is a lot of royalty and profit sharing involved in these deals, any mfr will always want to have its own engine wherever possible. If the DICOR was problem free, why would tata abandon the DICOR in its future products?
Because the Multijet already had a huge service/user base thanks to Maruti? This was a brilliant move by Tata, to be able to tell prospective customers that the car had the same engine as the Swift diesel. Worked out well for everyone.

And the point of re-opening this thread was to discuss the fact that Tata has re-introduced it's common-rail 1.4 litre engine under a new name - CR4. They're just not putting the DiCOR brand on it now. So, I would disagree that Tata has 'abandoned DiCOR' since the engine is used in three models, not one - Safari, Grande and Xenon. Maybe they've renamed it for the Indigo CS e-series, but it isn't abandoned by a long shot. Let's get the facts right, folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
About A.S.S person not recommending DiCoR I would say it is reflection of their utter incompetence , It is true that you can find Diesel Mechanic for Old Indica engine in every nook and corner and for Common Rail engine you should keep at-least 100 meter away from roadside shack.

But that is not a reason enough to keep away from a refined engine.

So in end it boils down to service , If you have noticed on this board Dicor Engine owners and Tata vehicle owners in general from Bangalore are generally happier compared to others in Southern region, and it is not just coincidence that Tata A.S.S is best over here compared to other places , Upgrades / updates were first done in Banaglore.

FYI Concord motors topped in J.D Powers survey this year.
Excellent observations. I think you're right. The problem with the DiCOR has primarily been the lack of competent, trained maintenance personnel. Also, people are not used to 'taking care' of a Tata, whereas most Maruti owners are first time owners who treat their car like it's made of glass.

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
they are advertising and selling it ( there was an eGLX in the showroom here, eLX is still not in stock here), but they're pushing the TDi more (check out vivekgk's purchase thread)
Update on this front. The eLX is finally here at Trivandrum, kind of. There is a lone Porcelain White eLX at Kulathunkal Motors. Costs approx. 50K more than the regular LX TDi. Truly fabulous engine, and the TDi doesn't hold a candle to it, according to the sales guy (whom I know, btw). The vehicle was unloaded just two days back, and it has been taken for one TD. Considering buying it (finances permitting). It's fully loaded, electric mirrors, two-tone interiors, Clarion MP3 4-speaker stereo with optional Bluetooth etc. It's excellent value, because you're getting a new-gen VGT common rail diesel, and lots of stuff for the 50K extra. ARAI fuel consumption is 23 kmpL.

Tata is really stingy about sending the BS4 models down south. There are two eGLX and one eLX in the showroom. Total of three vehicles in two lots!

Last edited by vivekgk : 27th May 2010 at 21:59.
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