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Old 17th September 2009, 20:44   #1
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Default DiCOR - What went wrong?

Dicor was one of the eagerly awaited engines from tata. Apart from Mahindra, its the only indigenous common rail implementation i can think of.

I think the 3.0L dicor came first, was a moderate sucess, the Indigo 1.4L Dicor was launched. Not too enthusiastic. 2.2L VTT Dicor launched - fairly good response.

Safari Dicors are far better than their TCIC equivalents. Not so much for the indigos. Power is up a measly 2bhp, and torque too only a few clicks more. Less turbo lag and supposedly better FE is the only saving grace.

Dicors are not quite as reliable as their TCIC equivalents. More complex too. The delphi components running the show behind Dicor Engines are rumoured to be not as reliable as bosch stuff. You cant add a tuning box and dial up the power and torque without sacrificing reliablity( if you have it in the first place). A well known tuner refuses to touch Tata Dicor cars.

Cost is also no cakewalk. While on an average, and indica dicor is 30k more than its TCIC equivalent, an indigo Dicor is 50k more than the TCIC. Maintenance cost is no great shakes. 2k for a fuel filter, as opposed to 200 for a TCIC indigo engine.

Whether the Indigo vista will come with Dicor or a TDi engine is still to be determined, though we've had hints that it will not be a dicor.
Sumo Grande was not exactly a hit. Tata launches a 'turbo' variant. Too little too late?

Today, the Indigo XL is De-Dicor ized.

Makes me wonder about the Dicor engine, especially the indigo one.Why didnt it take off? was the problem due to the delphi equipment? Does it have a future ? I'd really like tata to develop their own ( and viable) common rail tech tech for small displacement engines, but doesnt look too good at the moment.

Or is it going to abandon dicor, and do to fiat, what it did to Mercedes back in the day ?
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Old 17th September 2009, 23:31   #2
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Well, a little over an year ago, when we were buying the Indigo CS just after its launch, we had initially wanted to go in for the DiCOR version.
However the sales guy who is a friend told us to buy the TDi instead, stating that the DiCOR has some teething problems and also expensive to maintain.

We did not think much about it after that and bought the TDi. So I think it was a pricing perception problem.
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Old 17th September 2009, 23:49   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Dicor was one of the eagerly awaited engines from tata. Apart from Mahindra, its the only indigenous common rail implementation i can think of.

I think the 3.0L dicor came first, was a moderate sucess, the Indigo 1.4L Dicor was launched. Not too enthusiastic. 2.2L VTT Dicor launched - fairly good response.

Safari Dicors are far better than their TCIC equivalents. Not so much for the indigos. Power is up a measly 2bhp, and torque too only a few clicks more. Less turbo lag and supposedly better FE is the only saving grace.

Dicors are not quite as reliable as their TCIC equivalents. More complex too. The delphi components running the show behind Dicor Engines are rumoured to be not as reliable as bosch stuff. You cant add a tuning box and dial up the power and torque without sacrificing reliablity( if you have it in the first place). A well known tuner refuses to touch Tata Dicor cars.

Cost is also no cakewalk. While on an average, and indica dicor is 30k more than its TCIC equivalent, an indigo Dicor is 50k more than the TCIC. Maintenance cost is no great shakes. 2k for a fuel filter, as opposed to 200 for a TCIC indigo engine.

Whether the Indigo vista will come with Dicor or a TDi engine is still to be determined, though we've had hints that it will not be a dicor.
Sumo Grande was not exactly a hit. Tata launches a 'turbo' variant. Too little too late?

Today, the Indigo XL is De-Dicor ized.

Makes me wonder about the Dicor engine, especially the indigo one.Why didnt it take off? was the problem due to the delphi equipment? Does it have a future ? I'd really like tata to develop their own ( and viable) common rail tech tech for small displacement engines, but doesnt look too good at the moment.

Or is it going to abandon dicor, and do to fiat, what it did to Mercedes back in the day ?



And what makes you think 3.0L Dicors were moderate success. Everyone started gunning for Safari's only for the 3L Dicor when it started, It would have sold the same manner if TATA's would not have got 2.2 L prematurely.

Most Safari guys on this forum still have lot of respect for the 3.0L Dicor whatever it may be. They were infact the most trouble free Dicors that ever exists

Can we make this thread a bit specific since we are only talking about the Indigo
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Old 18th September 2009, 09:04   #4
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Talking 2008 Indigo dicor lx(top end)

Hi I have the lx 2008 dicor indigo and it is a better engine than the tdi but has reliablity issues... I have seen the check engine light more times in my indigo than my alto of 5 yrs....Also has over heating problems ....coolant gets over very fast ...no i checked no leaks...and the engine is much noisier than before and a fwe squeaks and rattles here & there.
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Old 18th September 2009, 10:04   #5
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@ Pavan kadam - Said so because i see a lot of TCIC and 2.2 Dicor Safaris around, but spotting a 3.0 DiCOR is rare.

Just curious, is it based on the 3.0 Di mill from the 407/sumo?

Last edited by greenhorn : 18th September 2009 at 10:07.
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Old 18th September 2009, 10:22   #6
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Greenhorn, the thread title is confusing - are you asking what went wrong with the Indigo Dicor or the Dicor in general?

On a different note, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Safari 3.0L Dicor & yes, the basic engine was the TATA 407 one - bulletproof reliability & amazing hauling power.

Last edited by suman : 18th September 2009 at 10:29.
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Old 18th September 2009, 10:22   #7
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The fact that you dont see the 3.0 dicors too much is because this version was in the market for only a short span by which time it was replaced by the 2.2 . But with the number of Dicors we get to see on the roads nowadays I dont think there are as many issues that you might be hinting at. Can you be more specific in terms of your observations on the dicor engine.

The TCIC defenitely is more reliable considering that its a time-tested block and the Dicor is a relatively new engine and hence the durablity presumably cannot be at par with the older TCIC but considering other factors such as NVH, better mileage, more powerful engine and better torque of 320nm on 1700 rpm as compared to 190nm on 3000 rpm of tcic, still feel that Dicor still stands its ground, unless there have been any major observations on the reliablity front. Maybe T-Bhp Dicor owners can throw more light on their observations so far.

also just went through this thread (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ns-thread.html) just now which discusses on the issues with the dicor but in the 3, 4 pages that i have managed to go thru , there are only discussion on niggling issues but there is no mention of anything majorly wrong on the engine as such.

And like suman mentioned earlier, is your question on the Dicor vehicles or the Dicor engine as such. If you are talking of Dicor vs TCIC cars then yes defenitely as a package both have their share of numerous niggling issues.

Last edited by Rotorhead : 18th September 2009 at 10:35.
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Old 18th September 2009, 10:33   #8
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Suman, I'm asking about Dicor tech in general.
1. reliablity - as seen with some indigos and safaris
2. Cost effectiveness - as seen with the indigos and the sumo grande.

The dicor works in the Safari, since its a premium SUV, but Common rail tech is not exactly rocket science, so i was wondering why it was tata was having so much problems implementing it in their value offerings - both reliability and cost wise.
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Old 18th September 2009, 11:00   #9
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Have to agree with Pawan and Suman.

I used to own a 3.0 Safari Dicor and loved it. Agreed, the quality control of everything else in the car was way below the mark. The clutch was heavy, there was always a struggle shifting into first gear and i personally had a very bad experience with the Tata dealer (Shaman Motors - Bombay) with the fuel tank leaking during delivery, etc.

However, the engine was super. Power band was optimized, third gear was endless, turbo kicked in very reliably and i never had any problems in the 40,000 kms that i did in the 2 years that i owned the car. The car, even when fully loaded with passengers and luggage showed no strain and cruised effortlessly. No complaints about the engine whatsoever.

The only reason i sold it was that i tore my left ankle ligament and was advised not to use the heavy clutch for atleast six months and also my daily long distance trips were now off. And to add to it, i was getting a very sweet deal on it. I still miss the car and am a regular follower of the Safari pics thread.
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Old 18th September 2009, 11:07   #10
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Common rail tech has been around for long now I believe the first common-rail fuel injection was developed in 60's and was in commercial cars in 1997. And from that it has come a very long way .

I believe in India pocket rules the head and with Tata heavily banking upon taxi segment for sales I believe more than technology cost factor of the cars shuns them from putting a common rail engines in cars like indica and indigo. Safari etc are in other bracket and probably fit and finish has troubled this brand rather than engines. Yes definately CRDI will be costlier taking into consideration the high pressure injectors using peizo-electric controlled valves as opposed to individual low-pressure injectors.

Even for Grande it is VFM issue rather than engine issue. Believe me 2.2VTT in Grande and Safari are way ahead of Mahindras CDRE or mHawk. I am talking of engines and not the fuel saving techniques put around it .

Turbo charged engines have been tried tested and abused over the years and so definately the reliability wise they are much better than CRDI. But that does not bloat the reliabilty of the CRDI in any way. It is tech which is coming up big time in India and next years I think will be ruled by these engines
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Old 18th September 2009, 11:31   #11
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@greenhorn, this seems to be a general gripe about Tata vehicles and not engines with DICOR or the injection technology called DICOR.

1. How many instances are there where the DICOR injection system has failed?
2. How many instances are there where the engine has failed due to the diesel injection system? Or for that matter where the engine has failed?
3. What the DICOR system got to do with Tatas doing something to FIAT on the lines of whatever you may seem to think they did to Mercedes Benz?
4. What part of the DICOR system have you seen being unreliable?
5. What exactly do you mean by 'cost effectiveness' of the DICOR system?

DICOR tech is specifically the electronically-controlled diesel injection system, not even the sensors used to measure the ambient parameters. Perhaps we should be more specific and objective here? Or was the intention only to foment more gripes in general against Tata vehicles?
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Old 18th September 2009, 11:35   #12
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I tend to agree with green horn.
There are 2 issues here.
1. Tata does not seem to have got the recipe right for dicor. Save 3.0 in safari which i believe reliability of the old 407 engine rather masks the relibility issues of the dicor experiments of tata or we have too little sample space to have a decent analysis because it was in market for a limited period of time.
In most other models we do seem to have issues.

2. Tata may be reluctant to put more energy to get it right because TCIC may be just meeting their revenue needs/targets. At the dealerships they are not really ppushing it hard. (my cousin was told "DICOR ella gaadi craze irovrge saar, family-ge alla"... DICR is for the people with craze of vehicles, not for families)
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Old 18th September 2009, 11:45   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Just curious, is it based on the 3.0 Di mill from the 407/sumo?
To the best of my knowledge, YES. The 3.0 dicor mill in safari is from the 407 truck that is very famous for hauling a huge amount of load. This unit is inherently torquey and bottom end torque is excellent. Safari 3.0 was a good cruiser due to torquey nature of motor, in top gear, Safari 3.0 was geared to do around 50 kmph / 1000 rpm.

The same motor is found is Sumo and the version is called Spacio. This was to fight mahindra offering for rural segments.
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Old 18th September 2009, 11:50   #14
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I don't think it is a problem with the DICOR engine. As others have pointed out Common Rail Technology is common place now and not rocket science. Tata has issues with it's quality control and vendor management. The DICOR and non DICOR versions have equal QC issues. However the no-DICOR, i.e the older IDI Tata Engines are cheap to maintain and quite old tech without ECU etc so not much goes wrong with it.

The DICOR engine is a mucn more complex unit with various sensors working in harmony, hence poor QC has a bigger impact on the DICOR engine than on the IDI engine.
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Old 18th September 2009, 11:57   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
I don't think it is a problem with the DICOR engine. As others have pointed out Common Rail Technology is common place now and not rocket science. Tata has issues with it's quality control and vendor management. The DICOR and non DICOR versions have equal QC issues. However the no-DICOR, i.e the older IDI Tata Engines are cheap to maintain and quite old tech without ECU etc so not much goes wrong with it.

The DICOR engine is a mucn more complex unit with various sensors working in harmony, hence poor QC has a bigger impact on the DICOR engine than on the IDI engine.
I completely agree with 4x4 addict.
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