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Old 20th September 2009, 00:06   #31
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It depends. If i want a particular car which doesn't have an ABS/AB option, i will still buy it.

But if the manufacturer has another variant of the same model with ABS/AB, i would gladly choose that.

Having ABS/AB is always better but i wont turn away from my preference just bcoz it doesn't come with these features.

Instead of confusing the customer, the govt should just go ahead and make ABS/AB mandatory.

This is like selling cigarettes with a caution message on the pack. Hasn't stopped people from smoking, has it???

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Old 20th September 2009, 00:53   #32
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
What is implementation of the law ? In my city that has highest no. of cars per 1000 humans in Gujarat, this law is a waste.
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Instead of confusing the customer, the govt should just go ahead and make ABS/AB mandatory. This is like selling cigarettes with a caution message on the pack. Hasn't stopped people from smoking, has it???
Why do we need the government to tell us and enforce on us what is good for ourselves? Can't we decide for ourselves? I used to wear a helmet before it was mandatory for bikers in Mumbai. When I bought a car I wanted ABS and airbags. The one I ultimately bought does not have an airbag and I had spend considerable amount of time deliberating over it.
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Old 20th September 2009, 02:32   #33
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Why do we need the government to tell us and enforce on us what is good for ourselves? Can't we decide for ourselves?
Actually, no. While some might choose the ABS/AB equipped cars, there will always be those who will choose the cheaper lower-end variants.

And unlike seatbelts, you can't choose not to use ABS/AB. They will activate the moment there is a need.

And lastly, ABS/AB can only help you, if you take the time to understand how these features work. Driving a car with AB and not wearing your seatbelt is far more dangerous than driving a non AB car while wearing seatbelts.

I've noticed people pumping the brakes on an ABS equipped car or driving under the impression that ABS will make their cars stop no matter how short the braking distances are.

These people have no idea that ABS is designed to prevent the wheels from locking, so that they can safely steer the car, while max possible braking pressure is maintained.

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Old 20th September 2009, 07:24   #34
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To Shan2nu's point where people dont understand - this can be imparted over time.
- Folks did not even understand seat belts usage earlier. Heck my driver still complains it restricts his movement and vision. I have stopped arguing with him except use my vito he is not driving with out it
- Again, to you point, having ABS allows you to prevent skidding the car and wish you avoid the collision when slamming hard - certainly a boon if the unfortunate event occurs.
- Airbags: no 2 ways about it. Headon collision; chances are you will be less injured.

You do somethings out of understanding and somethings out of force/duty/love/responsibility.

In our country, people take LOTS and LOTS of time learning. See our spitting, urinating, railway tracks crossing and grbage dumping scene. Folks are taking measures and we ought to slowly and surely change everyone around us.
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Old 20th September 2009, 11:06   #35
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Folks did not even understand seat belts usage earlier. Heck my driver still complains it restricts his movement and vision. I have stopped arguing with him except use my vito he is not driving with out it
Thats exactly my point. There are so many people who think like your driver. Had you not made it mandatory for him to wear seatbelts, he would have continued not wearing them.

All im saying is, why are cars without ABS/AB sold in the market, even today? Why give the customer the choice of buying a car which is less safe?

If all cars were to come with ABS/AB, nobody would have to think twice before buying a car.

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Old 20th September 2009, 12:32   #36
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Thats exactly my point. There are so many people who think like your driver. Had you not made it mandatory for him to wear seatbelts, he would have continued not wearing them.

All im saying is, why are cars without ABS/AB sold in the market, even today? Why give the customer the choice of buying a car which is less safe?

If all cars were to come with ABS/AB, nobody would have to think twice before buying a car.

Shan2nu
There are three techniques i see which can make ABS and other safety devices on the main stream like its else where in the world.

1. Actually we have to blame it on the government. Despite the fact that we have close to 0.1million people dying a year due to road accidents we dont have safety norms in place. I know most new car launches go through the NHAI crash test whose norms are not well published.

As far as the cost is concerned a mass application of these technologies should remove the cost component to some extent. ABS today costs some where around 20k but if every car had one then it would cost much lesser. Only way we can easily deploy ABS in cars is by the government making it mandatory. Otherwise its going to be a uphill journey where neither the buyers nor the sellers are interested in anything that adds just cost now.

2. Honest Insurance companies. If our car Insurance companies charge more for cars that does not have any safety devices than people will seriously consider spending the 20k. But the question is are they evaluating the accidents and payouts with the fact that some safety device would have saved the payout?

3. A safety testing Institute. Like in Europe(NCAP) we could have a thrid party agent who is going to do the job of promoting safety in cars and other vehicles. This they will do by educating the people involved and also providing room for manufacturers to test their products on various safety aspects. So that they can advertise. They will also inspect various accident situations like the Insurance companies to set standards specific to our country.

If none of these steps are taken there is nothing much we can do if people buy non ABS fitted cars.
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Old 20th September 2009, 13:04   #37
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Thats exactly my point. There are so many people who think like your driver. Had you not made it mandatory for him to wear seatbelts, he would have continued not wearing them.

All im saying is, why are cars without ABS/AB sold in the market, even today? Why give the customer the choice of buying a car which is less safe?

If all cars were to come with ABS/AB, nobody would have to think twice before buying a car.

Shan2nu
That's a very slippery slope you are on right now. This isn't Europe where everyone can afford a car in the first place. Having it mandatory in India is a ridiculous idea.

Let's say the government made ABS and airbags mandatory. The Tata Nano would then cost a large amount extra. From a one lakh car, it would go to a two lakh car because these are not cheap technologies. Think of those who will therefore have to continue ferrying a family of 4 on a scooter. I'd rather see them in a Nano without ABS and airbags which is far safer.

They could make it mandatory for expensive cars but then all of these models above a certain price point already have ABS and airbags as standard features in at least one version. The best they could do is to ask manufacturers to have these two in all the versions if the car is above a certain price point. That too is a bit of a slippery slope in terms of deciding at what price point to enforce this law, but it is certainly a lot better than asking all carmakers to have airbags irrespective of price.

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Old 20th September 2009, 15:02   #38
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This is a very tricky question specially in a cost conscious country such as India. I will take my example itself. I might buy a new car in a month or two and for my Budget, the car Im interested in is the Getz Prime 1.1. This does not have the ABS/AB stuff, for which I have to dole out extra.

Suppose an Alto is available with ABS/AB, then that would be an attractive option for me even though my choice of a spacious hatch wont be met. The cost of an Alto with ABS/AB would still be within my reach.

I guess, atleast one variant with ABS/AB for each model would help.
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Old 27th September 2009, 13:48   #39
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Originally Posted by aarenes View Post
Here's my prespective.
Point is
Now that I am back, I looked for nothing less that ABS and Airbag variants of the car which mostly means top end variants. I drive 50% on highways and 50% in the city.

My heart wanted the Linea so bad but since the MJD E+ was darn expensive for me, opted for the Punto MJD E+. Nothing without Airbags and ABS for me going forward in my lifetime.

You may chose to put a price tag for your life, but most certainly not your co-passengers. Family changes perspective. With options available on almost all cars sold today, I would recommend go for a segment lower but dont compromise on these utmost necessary safety features. Else stretch your budget.
Well said, brother. Family does change perspective and ABS and airbags were on top of my list when I went shopping for our second car. The first one was a Swift Vdi ABS(I had to pull some strings to get an ABS variant at that time - it was very rare !! Shame on Maruti for not having a Zdi). Zeroed on the MJD Punto E-Pack, though it was slightly above my budget, nothing else would do.

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That's a very slippery slope you are on right now. This isn't Europe where everyone can afford a car in the first place. Having it mandatory in India is a ridiculous idea.
It is not so ridiculous, actually our country attaches such a low value to human life, that legistlation is sometimes the only way to go forward. Do you know that buses/trucks only started offering power steering after it was mandated by legistlation? Till then, what was preventing the manufacturers from offering it? Then again, it all boils down to the India attitude for getting everything cheapest, rest of the stuff be damned. That said, people still mostly(if at all) wear seatbelts because the law demands it, rather than for personal safety. I can understand the ignorant taxi driver doing it, but when educated folks refuse to belt up, I feel like

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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Let's say the government made ABS and airbags mandatory. The Tata Nano would then cost a large amount extra. From a one lakh car, it would go to a two lakh car because these are not cheap technologies. Think of those who will therefore have to continue ferrying a family of 4 on a scooter. I'd rather see them in a Nano without ABS and airbags which is far safer.
Firstly, the law does not allow family of 4 on a scooter, it is just that law enforcement turns a blind eye to it. If nano's could have had ABS, the cost for it would come down from 20k to 5k. Similar to airbags. Mass production and competition would make it affordable. World over, the Swift has only one model, with all the bells and whistles and importantly, ABS & Airbags. We get a stripped down Lxi, Vxi etc. Because, Indians would rather save that 50k and be sorry than spend it and be safe !! Everyone thinks, what is the probability that I will have an accident? Very small - so let me save that 50k. Or, as somebody wrote in this thread, I drive only in city, so I don't need it. 99.99% you don't, but what about that uncertain .01%? Do the people who think on these lines abhor life insurance as well?

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They could make it mandatory for expensive cars but then all of these models above a certain price point already have ABS and airbags as standard features in at least one version. The best they could do is to ask manufacturers to have these two in all the versions if the car is above a certain price point. That too is a bit of a slippery slope in terms of deciding at what price point to enforce this law, but it is certainly a lot better than asking all carmakers to have airbags irrespective of price.
Price point - that distinction is already there, without legistlation. As you said, customers of higher end cars have started demanding this feature, even if it is primarily percieved as a luxury feature rather than as a safety feature. How else do you explain manufacturers clubbing ABS in their high end variant only? Maruti tried to alter the game by offering at least ABS as option in their Vxi/Vdi range, but Indian public showed that we ae still to evolve.
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Old 27th September 2009, 14:33   #40
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Originally Posted by kuttapan View Post
It is not so ridiculous, actually our country attaches such a low value to human life, that legistlation is sometimes the only way to go forward. Do you know that buses/trucks only started offering power steering after it was mandated by legistlation? Till then, what was preventing the manufacturers from offering it? Then again, it all boils down to the India attitude for getting everything cheapest, rest of the stuff be damned. That said, people still mostly(if at all) wear seatbelts because the law demands it, rather than for personal safety. I can understand the ignorant taxi driver doing it, but when educated folks refuse to belt up, I feel like
+1 to that.
Note: India has the dubious distinction of having the highest number of deaths due to road accidents.
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Old 27th September 2009, 14:57   #41
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airbags and abs should be made mandatory yes - but at the same time, the roads and other infrastructure needs to keep pace with technological advances used the world over. If these two sets of developments go hand in hand, the Indian consumer will truly benefit.
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Old 27th September 2009, 19:06   #42
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They could make it mandatory for expensive cars - I really beg to differ with this comment.
Say the price point is 6 lakhs. Now, does this mean that the person who buys a car for 5 lakhs has no value of his life, an a person who buys one for 10 lakhs has his life priced higher?
I guess humanity demands that all lives be treated as priceless - be that of a prince or a pauper. Too bad this is flouted at every field possible in India - and our politicians show the way.
Strictly my personal opinion - ABS/Airbags should be made mandatory in EVERY vehicle sold in India. People shall then have no choice but to buy a car with safety features - to save their and their fellow drivers dear lives.
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Old 28th September 2009, 15:29   #43
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They could make it mandatory for expensive cars - I really beg to differ with this comment.
Say the price point is 6 lakhs. Now, does this mean that the person who buys a car for 5 lakhs has no value of his life, an a person who buys one for 10 lakhs has his life priced higher?
Look at it the other way - A person buying a car under 6 lakhs (please don't pick at the figure, I am just using your figure as an example), probably attaches a lower value to his life(he migh also feels that the chances of having an accident are negligible), as he feels that the money saved could be put to use elsewhere. While a person spending more, who has more disposable income feels that as he has the money anyway, so what is the point of skimping important features?

When my wife was telling hear colleagues (women) that we chose the Punto for it's safety features, they expressed amazement that it was even a consideration. Dumb, I should say.
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Old 28th September 2009, 16:52   #44
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In our country we donot value Human life at all. I think considering such a huge poupulation, human life is taken for granted. In developed countries, cars are designed and tested keeping in mind factors like impact to the pedestrian etc. Some cars even have pedestrian airbag and also a bonnet which cushions the impact.
ABS is a must. People buy the cars citing its only for city use and moreoften than not are using it on the highway.
Imagine a situation, you are negatiating a blind corner and once you are in the middle of a corner, you see a stray cattle / buffallo in the middle of the road. You slam the brakes and try to steer away. This is a typical situation and a car can easily topple in such a situation. The presence of ABS ensures that the wheels donot lock up and steering control is still available.

I would like to narrate an incident what my friend faced. He was driving in his Toyota Innova to Tirupati. It was aroung 5.15AM and drizzling. He was at around 110kmph. Suddenly he saw a truck stop some distance away, aroun 300 mts. He slammed the brakes and the wheels locked up big time. The vehicle skidded all the way and banged in to the truck. Luckily noting happned to anybody. By the way the repairs costed him 3.5 lacs. ABS would have defenitely avoided such a situation.

ABS all the way.
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Old 28th September 2009, 16:58   #45
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They could make it mandatory for expensive cars - I really beg to differ with this comment.
Say the price point is 6 lakhs.
Read my post again. I mentioned clearly that this is still a slippery slope. However, it definitely has fewer ramificiations. Why? Because the chap who is not able to afford a 6 lakh car (with ABS and airbags) can still afford a car! Whereas a chap who can't afford a Nano with ABS and airbags is left with no option but a two wheeler.

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Originally Posted by kuttapan View Post
It is not so ridiculous, actually our country attaches such a low value to human life, that legistlation is sometimes the only way to go forward. Do you know that buses/trucks only started offering power steering after it was mandated by legistlation? Till then, what was preventing the manufacturers from offering it? Then again, it all boils down to the India attitude for getting everything cheapest, rest of the stuff be damned. That said, people still mostly(if at all) wear seatbelts because the law demands it, rather than for personal safety. I can understand the ignorant taxi driver doing it, but when educated folks refuse to belt up, I feel like
Power steering in trucks is a very different case to safety in private cars. It doesn't apply here because trucks are pretty costly to begin with. When they buy trucks, power steering will hardly change the overall cost. However, a Nano with ABS will be far more expensive than one without. The difference is that now, you cannot afford the car because of the law.

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Firstly, the law does not allow family of 4 on a scooter, it is just that law enforcement turns a blind eye to it. If nano's could have had ABS, the cost for it would come down from 20k to 5k. Similar to airbags. Mass production and competition would make it affordable.
Whatever the law states, we all know four people travel on scooters. Stay in the real world. ABS and airbags cost a lot more than 20k or 5k. This is a quote from the Times and is published on Wikipedia

Quote:
Without these (ABS and airbags), the Nano would not even be considered for approval in Britain. Adding them would double its price in India, which is why they have been omitted.
Double the price. Think about that for a minute


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Originally Posted by kuttapan View Post
Price point - that distinction is already there, without legistlation. As you said, customers of higher end cars have started demanding this feature, even if it is primarily percieved as a luxury feature rather than as a safety feature. How else do you explain manufacturers clubbing ABS in their high end variant only? Maruti tried to alter the game by offering at least ABS as option in their Vxi/Vdi range, but Indian public showed that we ae still to evolve.
Sure, but legislation requiring it to be present in all variants would help. That way, at least you can buy a Lxi Swift and still get safety.

End of the day, making ABS and airbags mandatory across the board for all cars is a ridiculous idea. It will only deprive those who can just about afford a Nano now (and a huge number of people come under this bracket) of owning a car and they will make do with two wheelers. And whether they wear helmets or not, the chances of injury and death for these people are much higher on a two wheeler than in a non ABS and non airbag car. Not to mention the other benefits of owning a car which are lost to them because of the law. This is not Europe such that we can just copy their laws, enforce it, and let whatever happens happen. Our government has enough sense to frame laws keeping in mind the real situation and not an idealised one.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 28th September 2009 at 17:02.
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