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Old 28th September 2009, 17:01   #46
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Look at it the other way - A person buying a car under 6 lakhs (please don't pick at the figure, I am just using your figure as an example), probably attaches a lower value to his life(he migh also feels that the chances of having an accident are negligible), as he feels that the money saved could be put to use elsewhere. While a person spending more, who has more disposable income feels that as he has the money anyway, so what is the point of skimping important features?

When my wife was telling hear colleagues (women) that we chose the Punto for it's safety features, they expressed amazement that it was even a consideration. Dumb, I should say.
What if some one cannot spend more than 6 lakhs? Doesn't he have the right to demand safety from the car companies for him and his dear ones?

Blanket government enforcement is the only way to go forward. It may make us wait for another 6 months(just a rough number) to gather that extra 50000/- (another rough number) before taking that plunge to buy a new car, but ensure that the car shall be a safe one on the roads for us and others.
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Old 28th September 2009, 17:29   #47
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What if some one cannot spend more than 6 lakhs? Doesn't he have the right to demand safety from the car companies for him and his dear ones?

Blanket government enforcement is the only way to go forward. It may make us wait for another 6 months(just a rough number) to gather that extra 50000/- (another rough number) before taking that plunge to buy a new car, but ensure that the car shall be a safe one on the roads for us and others.
For the first guy, he does have the right to and there will always be cars with ABS and airbags below 6 lakhs. Making it mandatory above a price point will not mean that everything below that point won't have it. Let me even assume that the worst case scenario happens (it is almost an impossibility but even then let's consider it) and no car below 6 lakh has ABS and airbags. Let your hypothetical 6 lakh car buyer also wait a few months and then buy his new car with safety! In fact, you contradict yourself when you say that a prospective Nano buyer should wait for six months and get another fifty grand while your 6 lakh buyer cannot spend a penny over that figure.

Furthermore, while it may take six months for you to save fifty grand, a Nano buyer may take a couple of years to get that amount and buy his ABS and airbag equipped Nano. And during those two years, he could easily be killed by a speeding truck that crashes into his scooter while he has a half chance at life if he were driving a one lakh Nano. Even six months is a considerable period to put off buying your first car by. Because for those six months, your life is in constant danger.

Partial enforcement at least has some merits but it must be said that it is still extremely hard to make decisions such as which price point should we look at. Blanket enforcement, on the other hand, is flawed. Glaringly so. Blanket enforcement of airbags and ABS is analogous to asking a starving poverty stricken man to buy life insurance. What the hell is the point if he'll probably die of hunger anyway?

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 28th September 2009 at 17:44.
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Old 28th September 2009, 17:49   #48
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It's only in a country like ours where safety is an option.

There is no question that ABC + airbags make for a more relaxed driving experience. Sudden braking is something that is far more common within city limits than on the highway. Believe me there is nothing scarier than the thought of losing control of a car in an Indian city with so many pedestrians and road dwellers.

To get to the point, a car sans ABS or at least ONE airbag reflects the company's ethics and displays the exploitation of the average Indian mindset. Be smart and play not with the safety of your family/self. Insurance does little to calm the mind as a decent set of safety features.
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Old 28th September 2009, 17:58   #49
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For the first guy, he does have the right to and there will always be cars with ABS and airbags below 6 lakhs. Making it mandatory above a price point will not mean that everything below that point won't have it. Let me even assume that the worst case scenario happens (it is almost an impossibility but even then let's consider it) and no car below 6 lakh has ABS and airbags. Let your hypothetical 6 lakh car buyer also wait a few months and then buy his new car with safety! In fact, you contradict yourself when you say that a prospective Nano buyer should wait for six months and get another fifty grand while your 6 lakh buyer cannot spend a penny over that figure.

Furthermore, while it may take six months for you to save fifty grand, a Nano buyer may take a couple of years to get that amount and buy his ABS and airbag equipped Nano. And during those two years, he could easily be killed by a speeding truck that crashes into his scooter while he has a half chance at life if he were driving a one lakh Nano. Even six months is a considerable period to put off buying your first car by. Because for those six months, your life is in constant danger.

Partial enforcement at least has some merits but it must be said that it is still extremely hard to make decisions such as which price point should we look at. An analogy is life insurance. Blanket enforcement is like asking a starving poverty stricken man to buy life insurance. What the hell is the point?
Come on, our life is in constant danger every moment from our internal terrorists and hostile neighbors!

I only wanted to suggest that government should make it mandatory, as many people would still buy the non ABS/Airbag version of a car given a choice and save that 50k, even if they have that money. As for the ones who do not have that 50k in pocket, maybe they have to wait for some while. Thats it!
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Old 28th September 2009, 18:27   #50
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Should we not also consider the build quality of Car when talking about ABS/Airbags which are all essentially safety features.

I bring this point to highlight the fact that some car manufacturers which provide ABS/Airbags also use weak and light chasis which is not good...

Honda / Hyundai are known for providing ABS/Airbags is all models of their cars but their cars are of flimsy body which is prone to fatal damages during accidents.

On the other hand, Tata / Mahindra / Good old Amby cars are known to scunge on safety features like ABS/Airbags but the body quality is strong and more often than not, saving act during accidents.

So, I pose the question, Are ABS/Airbags only thing that define safety credentials of a Car?

I certainly don't think so and for that reason, ABS/Airbags, or lack thereof, would not deter my choice of the car IF overall safety credibility is good.
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Old 28th September 2009, 18:43   #51
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Originally Posted by akhilesh51 View Post
Should we not also consider the build quality of Car when talking about ABS/Airbags which are all essentially safety features.

I bring this point to highlight the fact that some car manufacturers which provide ABS/Airbags also use weak and light chasis which is not good...

Honda / Hyundai are known for providing ABS/Airbags is all models of their cars but their cars are of flimsy body which is prone to fatal damages during accidents.

On the other hand, Tata / Mahindra / Good old Amby cars are known to scunge on safety features like ABS/Airbags but the body quality is strong and more often than not, saving act during accidents.

So, I pose the question, Are ABS/Airbags only thing that define safety credentials of a Car?

I certainly don't think so and for that reason, ABS/Airbags, or lack thereof, would not deter my choice of the car IF overall safety credibility is good.
I guess by 'flimsy' you meant bodies crumpling under impact right?
thats what saves the occupants - the car crumple zones/collapsible steering etc. absorbs the shock under impact and saves the occupants.
Whereas in an amby, the shock is almost totally transferred to the occupants.
If you talk about low velocity dents/nicks/body damage, then an amby holds good no doubt. But I am sure it shall miserably fail a crash test.
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Old 28th September 2009, 19:05   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackasta View Post
Come on, our life is in constant danger every moment from our internal terrorists and hostile neighbors!
Lol!

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Originally Posted by blackasta View Post
I only wanted to suggest that government should make it mandatory, as many people would still buy the non ABS/Airbag version of a car given a choice and save that 50k, even if they have that money. As for the ones who do not have that 50k in pocket, maybe they have to wait for some while. Thats it!
I agree that if a guy is saving 50k and getting a car without ABS and airbags and spending that on a better engined car or a bigger vehicle or a car with nicer interiors, that is silly. All I am saying is spare the cheapest cars of this rule because they are at a rather unique point in our transport market. At this point, its either car without ABS/airbags or bike. Bike to car is a hugely positive jump in terms of safety, even if the car doesn't have many safety features, and making that unattainable to many is inconsiderate to them. This is why I am for the general principle of mandatory safety features but against the blanket enforment of the same.
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Old 28th September 2009, 19:15   #53
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Lol!

Bike to car is a hugely positive jump in terms of safety, even if the car doesn't have many safety features, and making that unattainable to many is inconsiderate to them. This is why I am for the general principle of mandatory safety features but against the blanket enforment of the same.
Agreed, especially on that bike to car part.
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Old 28th September 2009, 19:43   #54
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I said ->

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Firstly, the law does not allow family of 4 on a scooter, it is just that law enforcement turns a blind eye to it. If nano's could have had ABS, the cost for it would come down from 20k to 5k. Similar to airbags.
I actually paid a difference of 20k ex-showroom for my Swift Vdi with ABS, over a non ABS variant. With mass market acceptance, prices are surely going to come down. Therefore, my comment that prices for an ABS variant for NANO may not cost all that more. Note that I did not include airbags, but it is certainly not going to make the nano cost double, at the scale it will sell.

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Whatever the law states, we all know four people travel on scooters. Stay in the real world. ABS and airbags cost a lot more than 20k or 5k. This is a quote from the Times and is published on Wikipedia
Don't gobble up everything you read in the times. And wikipedia is certainly not the bible, it can have errors too. Update your facts, ABS costs only 20k more, at least for Maruti Swift.
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Old 28th September 2009, 19:54   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhilesh51 View Post
Should we not also consider the build quality of Car when talking about ABS/Airbags which are all essentially safety features.

I bring this point to highlight the fact that some car manufacturers which provide ABS/Airbags also use weak and light chasis which is not good...

Honda / Hyundai are known for providing ABS/Airbags is all models of their cars but their cars are of flimsy body which is prone to fatal damages during accidents.

On the other hand, Tata / Mahindra / Good old Amby cars are known to scunge on safety features like ABS/Airbags but the body quality is strong and more often than not, saving act during accidents.

So, I pose the question, Are ABS/Airbags only thing that define safety credentials of a Car?

I certainly don't think so and for that reason, ABS/Airbags, or lack thereof, would not deter my choice of the car IF overall safety credibility is good.
I think you have misunderstood the reason of having Airbag.

The body of the car may be as solid as a Tank. But the damage to occupants are normally caused by broken facia / steering and the occupant himself moving towards the same because of inertia. This is when the airbag inflates and avoids the occupants hitting the Facia.

As to ABS pls refer my earlier post.
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Old 28th September 2009, 20:54   #56
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ABS was introduced decades back in the west. More enhancing driveability is provided by EBD system which is recent. ABS is a must for those cruising above 80 kmph. Search on Google can fetch us info on comparison of ABS & normal braking system. ABS is a costly option right now, in India. It will be as common as ICE in cars in near future
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Old 28th September 2009, 21:54   #57
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Originally Posted by kuttapan View Post
Don't gobble up everything you read in the times. And wikipedia is certainly not the bible, it can have errors too. Update your facts, ABS costs only 20k more, at least for Maruti Swift.
Wikipedia and The Times are a lot more reliable than you extrapolating and guessing how much ABS and airbags cost. Get solid facts on how much extra it would cost on a Nano (and not a Swift) and then post. If not, you're wasting everyone's time with inaccurate info. You don't even know how much the airbags cost.

And let me say this clearly so you can understand it this time (this is the third time I have said it). What appears to be a small amount for a Swift buyer is a huge amount for a Tata Nano buyer. The price it would cost to add ABS and airbags on a Nano, according to your "calculations" or according to facts may vary but it sure as hell won't be cheap. Even 20k for ABS is huge when you put it in perspective of the Nano's price. Many current Nano buyers would have to make do with two wheelers for the whole family if some lawmaker actually passes a law as ridiculous as this which needs all cars to have these safety features. It seems you would rather blindly advocate ABS and airbags anyway as a blanket law without reasoning. Go ahead and keep posting the same thing but I can tell you two things: It won't happen and its a damn good thing that it won't happen.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 28th September 2009 at 22:12.
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Old 29th September 2009, 16:21   #58
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Wikipedia and The Times are a lot more reliable than you extrapolating and guessing how much ABS and airbags cost. Get solid facts on how much extra it would cost on a Nano (and not a Swift) and then post. If not, you're wasting everyone's time with inaccurate info. You don't even know how much the airbags cost.
Seems we are going on a tangent here. I have not given our inaccurate info anywhere. Note that I did not mention the absolute price of airbags, as I do not know. Thanks for pointing out my ignorance.

All I was saying is that, if Nano sells, let's say 10 lakh cars with ABS(assuming Tata can sell so much and that ABS is mandatory), it is a given that ABS will cost less than 20k(Yes, extrapolating, but I do not know anyone in the Tata Motors accounting department and neither Times nor wikipedia had the info on TATA nano ABS price, so I found it prudent to use a bit of intelligence ). Please read about mass market economics, it is not all that difficult to understand. Just remember how the cost of computers have come down, even when the technology inisde has gone up.
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Old 29th September 2009, 20:12   #59
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neither Times nor wikipedia had the info on TATA nano ABS price, so I found it prudent to use a bit of intelligence
The quote from the Times and Wikipedia states that a Nano with ABS and airbags will cost around double the current cost. Why is that so hard to understand? And computers and car features don't work in the same way. Why? Worldwide, ABS and airbags are mandatory. Yet no one has still found a way to make them as cheap as you and I would like it to be. What is the guarantee that when Tata makes a lot of cars, they will suddenly be able to make it so cheap?

Also think about this: If ABS and airbags are so cheap, then Tata would not hesitate in the least to add them to the car. Tata has considered and even advertised the safety of the Nano. The reason we don't have a variant of the Nano in India with ABS and airbags is because it is simply too expensive and makes the car disproportionately more expensive. Clearly, you understand economics. Then you'll also know that the percentage increase in the Nano's price will be much higher than for a Swift.

Even if you still can't digest the fact that ABS and airbags are expensive, consider this. For those people who can just about afford a Nano now, ABS and airbags made mandatory is effectively going to delay their car purchase by a certain period of time. It may even make the difference between them owning a Nano and riding around with all four members of the family on a two wheeler. Do not deprive them of safety they can get when they drive a car, even if its without ABS and airbags.
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Old 30th September 2009, 18:56   #60
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Also think about this: If ABS and airbags are so cheap, then Tata would not hesitate in the least to add them to the car. Tata has considered and even advertised the safety of the Nano. The reason we don't have a variant of the Nano in India with ABS and airbags is because it is simply too expensive and makes the car disproportionately more expensive. Clearly, you understand economics. Then you'll also know that the percentage increase in the Nano's price will be much higher than for a Swift.
Pls don't make Tata holier than they are. Does Vista have airbags? Indica only started sporting airbags, after Tata's city rover stint, where airbags were a necessity.

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Even if you still can't digest the fact that ABS and airbags are expensive, consider this. For those people who can just about afford a Nano now, ABS and airbags made mandatory is effectively going to delay their car purchase by a certain period of time. It may even make the difference between them owning a Nano and riding around with all four members of the family on a two wheeler. Do not deprive them of safety they can get when they drive a car, even if its without ABS and airbags.
Ok Sir, no airbags/ABS for Nano, then. I would like the Nano to do well and I am sure it is going to sell much more in the barebones config, rather than with all the bells and whistles. But whoever is well off and buying the Nano as a toy, please remember to order airbags and ABS. Hopefully, Tata will listen.
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