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Old 11th October 2009, 19:04   #61
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Rehan and ported head-

Waiting to see what actually happend today?Some more pics and reports?
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Old 11th October 2009, 19:12   #62
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Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
Rehan and ported head-

Waiting to see what actually happend today?Some more pics and reports?
Here are the pictures, videos and report.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/int-l-...7-onwards.html
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Old 11th October 2009, 19:22   #63
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Why do we have two parallel threads running for the same event?Why can't we have one thread with it all?
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Old 11th October 2009, 20:24   #64
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Originally Posted by ported_head View Post

One of the engineers, demonstrated it to us by inducing bump travel in one of the wheel sides with his hands. However, this hardly reciprocated in any sort of movement on the linkages for the other wheel side.

This is because of the geometry of the bell crank lever and the hydraulic damper on the other wheel side, right? So this would then also act as an anti roll bar? Since the connection of the bell crank lever, via the pushrod, is to the lower wishbone.

But it would also depend on the kind of leverage, and whether it's a rising/decreasing rate of suspension, right? Also, their setup must be softer for these road shows in order to increase mechanical grip?

The calculation of spring rate for this sort of a setup seems really complex. I mean, you would have to consider the springs in the bell crank, the torsion bar, and the large monoshock. Can anybody shed any more light on how to go about this.
I think you got it. Spring rate would be lowered for street driving because a typical street would be notoriously bumpy compared to an F1 track.

To calculate wheel rate you need add up all the rates and leverages. For a single wheel bump the bell crank spring, the torsion bar and the main spring are all in parallel. The main coil spring has two springs that are in series. Also you have to add the rate from the bending of the CF upper wishbone which would be in parallel. Double wheel, leave out the torsion bar. Main coil preload is used to tweak ride height. I am wondering where they are mounting the downforce spring (the one that wacked Massa). BTW, the right way to design a spring is torsion so I would imagine that they are all torsion of some sort.
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Old 11th October 2009, 23:41   #65
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You guys, thanks for an absolutely fantastic thread covering every aspect of the car and the day's proceedings exhaustively. Those of us who couldn't make it have the next best thing!


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Originally Posted by hillram View Post
Awesome review and pics of the Red Bull Car.Reminds of a real GP taking place in Mumbai on Sunday.
Mumbaikars you sure are lucky and do carry some St.Andrew's Crosses (Scottish Flags) !!!!
Fixed!
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Old 12th October 2009, 12:03   #66
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Thanks for the detailed report Rehaan
It was simply amazing to see the details you have put in.
Keep it up
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Old 12th October 2009, 20:26   #67
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Hats Off Rehan and Dippy for a great thread and jawdropping photos. This is what Team Bhp is about.
They should have one of these events in Bangalore
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Old 12th October 2009, 20:41   #68
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Originally Posted by Dippy View Post

The F1 Steering Wheel
D - Engine Braking
How do you electronically control engine braking? Do they run a retarder of some sort?
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Old 12th October 2009, 22:09   #69
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Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
How do you electronically control engine braking? Do they run a retarder of some sort?
Since they use pneumatic valves, there's many easy ways to do it... like simply reduce duration for a start. (guessing here)
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Old 12th October 2009, 23:00   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Since they use pneumatic valves, there's many easy ways to do it... like simply reduce duration for a start. (guessing here)
Wow! Never thought of that! Awesome.

So in theory they could even get the engine braking of a jake-brake??

cya
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Old 12th October 2009, 23:32   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Since they use pneumatic valves, there's many easy ways to do it... like simply reduce duration for a start. (guessing here)
Er. Had a doubt there. The cams & followers are still mechanical, right? IIRC, pneumatic valves would only help in reducing the peak lift load & valvetrain stress caused due to mechanical springs. So how would you reduce the duration? Variable cams, yes, but at those rpms?

Engine braking would only come in post 12-13K RPM in most situations; now this is where it gets interesting. Higher peak load on the poppets, if varied with shut throttle could result in increased engine wear. Could this be an additional factor for engine failures too?
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Old 13th October 2009, 14:46   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veyron1 View Post
Variable cams, yes, but at those rpms?
Variable valve timing's prohibited, Article 5.6.3 (2009 technical regulations) states that "Variable valve timing and variable valve lift systems are not permitted".

Quote:
Originally Posted by veyron1 View Post
The cams & followers are still mechanical, right?
Yes, all engines appear to have mechanical cams. Article 5.14.5 states that "camshafts must be manufactured from an iron based alloy. Each camshaft and lobes must be machined from a single piece of material. No welding is allowed between the front and rear bearing journals".

However Article 5.9 allows actuation by electronic, hydraulic, & pneumatic means for A) electronic solenoids uniquely for the control of engine fluids, B) components providing controlled pressure air for a pneumatic valve system, C) a single actuator to operate the throttle system of the engine, & D) components required as part of KERS.

There appears to be nothing in the regulations prohibiting a completely pneumatic valve system.
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Old 13th October 2009, 18:05   #73
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Depends if its fully electro pneumatic or just a pneumatic spring replacing a coil spring. Full electro would have no cams at all.

There is a lot of secrecy around F1 tech and lot of the info is speculation.

BTW, you can also influence engine braking (lower effect) with fuel and ignition timing.

Last edited by Mpower : 13th October 2009 at 18:12.
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Old 13th October 2009, 21:46   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by im_srini
There appears to be nothing in the regulations prohibiting a completely pneumatic valve system.
Hm. Could it be that Renault's already running camless electro-hydrarulic poppets...?? That seems to be fine as per the listed regs..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
BTW, you can also influence engine braking (lower effect) with fuel and ignition timing.
Fuel shut-off at those RPMs would risk lack of lubrication, wouldn't it? Complete ignition cut off could help, yes, but...lot of trade offs. Unless you can vary compression. Without variable cams, all I can imagine are adjustable combustion chambers to do that. And I don't think electro-pneumatic valves are being run, simply due to the fact that solenoid functionality & reliability is suspect at such high RPMs; of course, I'm speculating too ...
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Old 13th October 2009, 21:53   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
Wow! Never thought of that! Awesome.

So in theory they could even get the engine braking of a jake-brake??

cya
R
I guess in theory yes. I've stood at turn1 in Indy which is a heavy braking zone and these engines sound like they have marbles in them during braking. Misfiring, hissing, spittingm, popping. Somehow you dont hear these things on TV
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Originally Posted by veyron1 View Post
Fuel shut-off at those RPMs would risk lack of lubrication, wouldn't it? Complete ignition cut off could help, yes, but...lot of trade offs....
Depends...if you are using fuel for lube. with hardened seats, maybe not so much. oil pump is still working. BTW, the newer road cars also use DFSO, (decel fuel-shut off)
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