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Old 11th December 2011, 18:48   #226
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
And itīs funny that the new Alto (A-Star) has about the same price here as the old Alto. that nearly eveAlternatively I would buy the Nissan Pixo (also A-Star) which is a bit cheaper here. It interesting ry Alto is equipped with AC. Here just the Comfort Edition does AC have but itīs expensive. I would like to have AC even we have very hot temperatures seldom. Is the AC reliable?
The old Alto continues to be produces here and is the largest selling car here for long. The K19 is only an added version to keep up the sales chart. A Star is named so only in India.
In India three versions of the Alto were sold side by side, The Maruti 800, the Zen and the Alto. All were Alto to the world. Even this is the case with Hyundai's cars, the Accent and the Santro different versions are sold even now. Ford also followed suit with the Fiesta now. When the new Fiesta was launched the old Fiesta was named Fiesta classic.
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Old 14th December 2011, 02:25   #227
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Exclamation Re: Alto Issues

@all who could help me

Well finally I found somebody who will exchange the head gasket after I showed him a print out of the manual posted here. Now I wanted to order the head gasket set which was available 2 weeks ago but now itīs not listed anywhere. I searched everywhere.

Now I have still questions:
1. Does anybody know whose are the manufacturers of the sets? Might by helpful. I found "Elring" for example. They have gaskets for all Altos but not for the FF 1.1!

2. What else except the Head Gasket do I need? Do I also need the bolts or can the old ones used? Does a head gasket set contain bolds? I found an offer for a "Fibermax" gasket but it seems that itīs only the gasket and no set.

3. In which other cars the F10D Engine was build. (Wagon R?) This might be helpful if a shop offers the gasket for another car with the same engine.

4. Do I need any special tool or is a standard set of tools enough?

5. Do the head need to be chipped/machined (hope you understand) or is there usually no need for this procedure?

Thanks for you help.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anky View Post
The Ac is great and chills the car in a couple of minutes and even in the harshest of summers at around 35to 37 dec C cools the car in five to seven minutes . The car is available in 3 Trims . Std(no PS/AC) lx(AC no PS) and lxi(AC and PS). Also the lx and lxi came with heaters as standard . Never used them in mumbai though . Of Course we have nappys in india , the onlly time she dint wear one she peed in the car .
I also used the child seat to drop her to school everyday . Now not reqd regular seats are fine for her .
So heaters are no standard in India? Or do you mean a park heating?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
AC is a must for our climate, very few cars will be bought without it. And yes, it is very effective and reliable. It saps the power of the 800 cc in lower RPMs, but does not affect the VX and K10 models so much.
We have here in summer usually 23-28 degrees C. Over 30 degrees is very seldom. My next car should have an AC but I donīt want it if it has to be serviced too often. Sounds like Maruti has a big experience with AC if nearly every car has one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
The old Alto continues to be produces here and is the largest selling car here for long. The K19 is only an added version to keep up the sales chart. A Star is named so only in India.
In India three versions of the Alto were sold side by side, The Maruti 800, the Zen and the Alto. All were Alto to the world. Even this is the case with Hyundai's cars, the Accent and the Santro different versions are sold even now. Ford also followed suit with the Fiesta now. When the new Fiesta was launched the old Fiesta was named Fiesta classic.
In Germany this is not common (I think all here have too much money). I noticed that Skoda has manufactured the old edition of the Octavia (In India "Lara" I think) along with the new edition. But it was just available in some neighbour countries. Same to Citroen with their Xara which was still available after launch of the C4. Of course not in Germany. We can buy the new expensive ones.....
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Old 14th December 2011, 10:23   #228
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
We have here in summer usually 23-28 degrees C. Over 30 degrees is very seldom. My next car should have an AC but I donīt want it if it has to be serviced too often. Sounds like Maruti has a big experience with AC if nearly every car has one.
I meant not just Maruti but all cars sold here! In Chennai, your summer daytime temperatures will be experienced only in winter! Even then,the nighttime temperatures may go down to ~ 16 deg C, but that's about it!

My Alto is 30 months old and the AC has not been serviced so far. Actually it is a AC + Heater combination. Meaning it has no thermostat controlled temperature setting, but mixes hot air with cold to keep your desired setting. Turn the knob fully to the left for ice cold air, and fully right for piping hot air!

Last edited by Gansan : 14th December 2011 at 10:30.
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Old 14th December 2011, 13:34   #229
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Just changing the head gasket requires the gasket and some shellac glue (most mechanics use it, but may not be essential).

I used to do a lot of engine jobs way back in early seventies, but after MUL started production, never had an opportunity. From what I remember

. Studs in the block can be reused a couple of times. But that was for cast iron block/head. If the stud is taken out of an aluminum block, theoretically you should change it, but in India, we just put it back after cleaning the hole. In case the threads in the block are stripped, you are in for a big expense - redrilling and tapping oversized threads + machining new studs with oversized threads on one side and normal ones on the other.

. The studs go through the head, so if they are not removed they remain there. You can put in new nuts if you feel that they will help, but it would be better to use a spring washer with an old nut.

. To check the flatness of the head the common trick
- make two copies of the head gasket from butter paper (baking paper?)
- put a 2-4mm thick layer of plasticine between these two gaskets
- screw in the head, say to 30% of final torque.
- take the head off, and check the uniformity of the plasticine. If the thickness variation is less than half the head gasket thickness, the the head gasket will absorb the slight unevenness, else you have to find out what is warped - the head or the block and take remedial action.

. Normally you will have to clean the head/block where ever the old gasket has stuck. Do it with a wooden spatula, as a metallic blade can easily shave the aluminum. It will take quite some time, but saves a lot of money (in case the head is shaved and requires machining).

. Please carry out a compression check on each cylinder, before opening the head, to check if any thing else requires attention - valve seats, piston rings and piston.

In India, we normally change the piston/ring and the engine bearings if we open the engine at around 100K kilometers. In rare case when exhaust valves seats are damaged, valves need replacement and seats are also ground.
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Old 14th December 2011, 16:01   #230
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Red face Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
@all who could help me

Well finally I found somebody who will exchange the head gasket after I showed him a print out of the manual posted here. Now I wanted to order the head gasket set which was available 2 weeks ago but now itīs not listed anywhere. I searched everywhere.

Now I have still questions:
1. Does anybody know whose are the manufacturers of the sets? Might by helpful. I found "Elring" for example. They have gaskets for all Altos but not for the FF 1.1!

2. What else except the Head Gasket do I need? Do I also need the bolts or can the old ones used? Does a head gasket set contain bolds? I found an offer for a "Fibermax" gasket but it seems that itīs only the gasket and no set.

3. In which other cars the F10D Engine was build. (Wagon R?) This might be helpful if a shop offers the gasket for another car with the same engine.

4. Do I need any special tool or is a standard set of tools enough?

5. Do the head need to be chipped/machined (hope you understand) or is there usually no need for this procedure?

Thanks for you help.



So heaters are no standard in India? Or do you mean a park heating?


We have here in summer usually 23-28 degrees C. Over 30 degrees is very seldom. My next car should have an AC but I donīt want it if it has to be serviced too often. Sounds like Maruti has a big experience with AC if nearly every car has one.



In Germany this is not common (I think all here have too much money). I noticed that Skoda has manufactured the old edition of the Octavia (In India "Lara" I think) along with the new edition. But it was just available in some neighbour countries. Same to Citroen with their Xara which was still available after launch of the C4. Of course not in Germany. We can buy the new expensive ones.....
The base version does not have an heater all others have one . The heater is an electronic and does not take radiator heat , but has a heating coil . In service manual . I have the manual.
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Old 14th December 2011, 22:41   #231
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Default Re: Alto Issues

My comments in bold letters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
Now I have still questions:

2. What else except the Head Gasket do I need? Do I also need the bolts or can the old ones used? Does a head gasket set contain bolds? I found an offer for a "Fibermax" gasket but it seems that itīs only the gasket and no set.
Bolts are not part of packing kits.
3. In which other cars the F10D Engine was build. (Wagon R?) This might be helpful if a shop offers the gasket for another car with the same engine.
Old WagonR had this engine.

5. Do the head need to be chipped/machined (hope you understand) or is there usually no need for this procedure?
What is required is a minimal grinding with a surface grinder. If at all there is any defects.
So heaters are no standard in India? Or do you mean a park heating? We have here in summer usually 23-28 degrees C. Over 30 degrees is very seldom. My next car should have an AC but I donīt want it if it has to be serviced too often. Sounds like Maruti has a big experience with AC if nearly every car has one.
India is a tropical country so AC is a requisite in summer. The southern states do not have a Winter as experienced in the north of India. So heaters are not needed there.

Last edited by rajeev k : 14th December 2011 at 22:43.
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Old 17th December 2011, 08:16   #232
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
My Alto is 30 months old and the AC has not been serviced so far. Actually it is a AC + Heater combination. Meaning it has no thermostat controlled temperature setting, but mixes hot air with cold to keep your desired setting. Turn the knob fully to the left for ice cold air, and fully right for piping hot air!
So the AC is always active? Is there any switch to turn off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
Just changing the head gasket requires the gasket and some shellac glue (most mechanics use it, but may not be essential).

I used to do a lot of engine jobs way back in early seventies, but after MUL started production, never had an opportunity. From what I remember

. Studs in the block can be reused a couple of times. But that was for cast iron block/head. If the stud is taken out of an aluminum block, theoretically you should change it, but in India, we just put it back after cleaning the hole. In case the threads in the block are stripped, you are in for a big expense - redrilling and tapping oversized threads + machining new studs with oversized threads on one side and normal ones on the other.

. The studs go through the head, so if they are not removed they remain there. You can put in new nuts if you feel that they will help, but it would be better to use a spring washer with an old nut.

. To check the flatness of the head the common trick
- make two copies of the head gasket from butter paper (baking paper?)
- put a 2-4mm thick layer of plasticine between these two gaskets
- screw in the head, say to 30% of final torque.
- take the head off, and check the uniformity of the plasticine. If the thickness variation is less than half the head gasket thickness, the the head gasket will absorb the slight unevenness, else you have to find out what is warped - the head or the block and take remedial action.

. Normally you will have to clean the head/block where ever the old gasket has stuck. Do it with a wooden spatula, as a metallic blade can easily shave the aluminum. It will take quite some time, but saves a lot of money (in case the head is shaved and requires machining).

. Please carry out a compression check on each cylinder, before opening the head, to check if any thing else requires attention - valve seats, piston rings and piston.

In India, we normally change the piston/ring and the engine bearings if we open the engine at around 100K kilometers. In rare case when exhaust valves seats are damaged, valves need replacement and seats are also ground.
Hi Aroy,
Thanks for this very detailed posting with all the hints.
Good to know that new bolds are not necessary.Well I will translate it all just for me for a better exactly understanding and for the guy who will do the work and maybe would help him. Usually he repairs VW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anky View Post
The base version does not have an heater all others have one . The heater is an electronic and does not take radiator heat , but has a heating coil . In service manual . I have the manual.
What I do not understand is that there is no hot air? I thought taking the air from radiator would be the simplest even you donīt need it in south india.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
My comments in bold letters.
Good to know with the kit. So I am going to buy just the gasket which I found here in Germany (but not the kit).

@all
Seems that many of you have a big experience with the Alto. Well no wonder - half india drives this car.
Just to be sure I just want to describe the symptoms my Alto has.
The problems with my Alto started with just a fizz / bubbling while starting the engine. It seemed that there was air in the cooling system.
Then days/weeks later in the morning the engine runs very bad after starting but this stopped after driving a minute or two. The engine works as always then. I guess water was in the engine. One day then after driving some time the engine was a bit more hot as usual. As I noticed that I stopped the car immediately to cool down. It wasnīt of course in the red area. Are these the typical symptoms a Maruti Alto has which a bad cylinder head gasket?
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Old 17th December 2011, 11:31   #233
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Can anybody help me regarding the correct procedure to remove the driver side door panel. Mine has the power window unit fitted to it.
Want to refit the said panel as the guys at MASS did not fit it properly when they replaced the Power window machine.
Excerpts from service manual will be appreciated.
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Old 17th December 2011, 11:37   #234
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
So the AC is always active? Is there any switch to turn off?
Just to be sure I just want to describe the symptoms my Alto has.
The problems with my Alto started with just a fizz / bubbling while starting the engine. It seemed that there was air in the cooling system.
Then days/weeks later in the morning the engine runs very bad after starting but this stopped after driving a minute or two. The engine works as always then. I guess water was in the engine. One day then after driving some time the engine was a bit more hot as usual. As I noticed that I stopped the car immediately to cool down. It wasnīt of course in the red area. Are these the typical symptoms a Maruti Alto has which a bad cylinder head gasket?
Yes there is an AC ON?OFF switch.

The symptoms are atypical of gasket failure and they do not pertain to the Alto alone. After opening the head tell the mechanic to thoroughly check the cylinder head and the cylinder block faces for any abnormality. There can be some deformation on the cylinder head face if the engine had overheated. (Did the problem arose immediately after an overheating?)
This is where you need to rectify with a surface grinder for which you have to take the head to a well equipped machine shop.
Further if the valves are removed from the cylinder head it is advisable to change the valve stem seals. Try to use OE or of good make or otherwise lube oil may seep through to the combustion chamber. Confirm if these seals are included in the gasket kit. The gasket kit would comprise of gaskets for the inlet and exhaust manifolds too. A full gasket kit for a full engine overhaul is not necessary a de-carbonising kit or a half kit if available would suffice.

Needless to say; get the work done by an experienced guy.

Last edited by rajeev k : 17th December 2011 at 11:45.
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Old 19th December 2011, 06:41   #235
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by samsag12 View Post
Can anybody help me regarding the correct procedure to remove the driver side door panel. Mine has the power window unit fitted to it.
Want to refit the said panel as the guys at MASS did not fit it properly when they replaced the Power window machine.
Excerpts from service manual will be appreciated.
Hi,
I donīt know if I understand your problem right but I had to remove it as I replaced the door handle. It was simple and I am really not an expert. All I need was a screwdriver. There a just a few screws I remember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
Yes there is an AC ON?OFF switch.

The symptoms are atypical of gasket failure and they do not pertain to the Alto alone. After opening the head tell the mechanic to thoroughly check the cylinder head and the cylinder block faces for any abnormality. There can be some deformation on the cylinder head face if the engine had overheated. (Did the problem arose immediately after an overheating?)
This is where you need to rectify with a surface grinder for which you have to take the head to a well equipped machine shop.
Further if the valves are removed from the cylinder head it is advisable to change the valve stem seals. Try to use OE or of good make or otherwise lube oil may seep through to the combustion chamber. Confirm if these seals are included in the gasket kit. The gasket kit would comprise of gaskets for the inlet and exhaust manifolds too. A full gasket kit for a full engine overhaul is not necessary a de-carbonising kit or a half kit if available would suffice.

Needless to say; get the work done by an experienced guy.
Aha... here we differ between an manually- and automatic AC. When the manually one is ON there is very cold air and in Winter there is no need to turn on. At the automatic you can enter the temperature you want directly and it will push the car to this. Thatīs all. We are not in a big need of AC.

The car had not been overheated. I was careful. The symptoms appeared very slowly and actually itīs still not a problem to drive with it a short distance. Pace and accelaration are ok so I think the valves are ok. I donīt found the kit here just the simple head gasket. I think I will order it hoping that the rest is ok.
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Old 19th December 2011, 21:31   #236
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
.. here we differ between an manually- and automatic AC.
The second one is the automatic climate control. It is not standard on any variant of Alto in India

Last edited by rajeev k : 19th December 2011 at 21:44.
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Old 21st December 2011, 13:01   #237
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Symptoms of a gasket leak

. Oil in water. Check the radiator for traces of oil.
. Abnormal engine oil consumption. About 1/2L or more every 5K km.
. Cold starting problems. Takes much longer to start compared to normal.
. Low compression in one or more cylinders. Best to check this first.
. Fuel consumption will increase. At least 25% more than normal.

If the rings are worn out, then all symptoms disappear when the engine gets hot. If the hot engine runs perfectly, take it for a long ride, say a couple of 100 kilometers, driving at 100km/h. Fill the tank to the brim, once it is hot, and then fill it again after the run. If the FE is good (> 17) and the engine does not overheat, then it is the rings/piston, else it is the gasket.
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Old 29th December 2011, 09:46   #238
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Default Re: Modding an Alto

Dear Alto owners,
It is my observation that in models made between 2006 to 2008, the Front door B pillar metallurgy is poor. In many cars I have observed, one can see paint bubbles and pitting starting from the bottom of the B pillar. I am attaching a picture of my own car suffering from this weird problem.

Maruti : Are you listening?
Attached Thumbnails
Alto Issues-img00104201112290749.jpg  

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Old 31st December 2011, 18:59   #239
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
The second one is the automatic climate control. It is not standard on any variant of Alto in India
Hi rajeev,
there is no one need for that in my opinion. If itīs hot I just want cool air and turn the ac on. A friend of mine has the automatic one and itīs always running. He is claiming that his car consumes too much fuel - No wonder.
If my next car would be again an Alto (A-Star) I would like to have an AC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
Symptoms of a gasket leak

. Oil in water. Check the radiator for traces of oil.
. Abnormal engine oil consumption. About 1/2L or more every 5K km.
. Cold starting problems. Takes much longer to start compared to normal.
. Low compression in one or more cylinders. Best to check this first.
. Fuel consumption will increase. At least 25% more than normal.

If the rings are worn out, then all symptoms disappear when the engine gets hot. If the hot engine runs perfectly, take it for a long ride, say a couple of 100 kilometers, driving at 100km/h. Fill the tank to the brim, once it is hot, and then fill it again after the run. If the FE is good (> 17) and the engine does not overheat, then it is the rings/piston, else it is the gasket.
Hi Aroy,
I checked the motor oil some time ago and it look more liquid as oil usual should look like. I guess there is water from the cooling system inside.
I canīt check the oil comsumption because I donīt use the car at the moment.
Cold starting problems does the car have. It starts and then the engine runs very bumpy. After a few minutes when itīs getting warmer it runs smooth like ever. But if I will drive some longer time (maybe over 10 or 20 minutes) itīs getting hot. I have noticed once that the indicator was higher (but not in the red area) than usual and stopped the car immediately for cool down. Since that day the car parks in front of my house waiting for repairing. Thanks for your help.
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Old 1st January 2012, 15:05   #240
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Default Re: Alto Issues

One thought. Have you checked the cooling system - blocked radiator tubes, stuck thermostat and/or leaking pipes. This usually happens in cars which are quite old, as with time the water channels and passages accumulate rust/deposits, which in turn affects cooling. But that will not impact cold starting only long runs in warm weather.

If possible get the cylinder compression checked, both dry and after injecting a bit of oil. You may have sticking valves as the idling smoothens out once hot. This is how Engine Compression Testing

http://www.amazon.com/KD-Tools-KDT24.../dp/B000K1GBZW
This and others shown are quite inexpensive so you may even buy one. I bought similar one thirty years back KD Tools 3305 - Universal Compression Tester Kit | SJDiscounttools.com
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