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Old 13th January 2012, 09:35   #256
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Default Re: Slow oil leak

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Originally Posted by JustCause View Post
My Alto has been leaking oil from the drain nut area. I have been observing this from mid-December. The oil leak is gradual with no stains formed overnight if I place a paper underneath. I cleaned the sump area in the 2nd week of December and it was clean till I observed it today morning. I could gather a drop of oil on my finger.

I cleaned the area again & there was no further leakage when I checked in the afternoon. I also took it to a neighborhood garage & the mechanic said that the washer of the drain plug is gone & the engine oil will become useless if I intend to replace the washer. The oil level (dipstick) as of now is 3mm below the max mark.

I currently have Mobil1 synthetic oil filled & my service is due in June 2012. Would it be advisable to wait till service or should I get the washer & the oil changed prematurely?
Normally the oil can be refilled, especially if it is not old.

In case you do not want to risk it, try local remedies -
. Clean the drain plug thoroughly with a cloth.
. Wipe the area dry with face tissues.
. Use chewing gum (thoroughly chewed!) around the base of the plug to seal small openings.

For all practical purpose the minor leak will be sealed. When you get the oil changed, ask the mechanic to inspect the drain hole for any deformations, and correct them if possible. Then use proper washer to seal the drain plug. Please check the drain plug for leaks after filling new oil. If it still leaks, change the sump, as the drain hole is now deformed beyond redemption.
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Old 13th January 2012, 13:35   #257
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Default Re: Slow oil leak

Hey mate,

You can easily wait till the next service or even till the leak is negligible. This seems to be another problem with Altos, I have seen enough with such minor leaks. Mine too has one, albeit for the gearbox. But what washer is he talking about which would render the existing oil useless? Did he give any more information in this regard?

Drive safe.

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Would it be advisable to wait till service or should I get the washer & the oil changed prematurely?

Last edited by blackfire_9 : 13th January 2012 at 13:37.
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Old 13th January 2012, 17:07   #258
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Default Re: Slow oil leak

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
Normally the oil can be refilled,.... If it still leaks, change the sump, as the drain hole is now deformed beyond redemption.
Is it possible for the sump hole to develop deformation after just two oil changes?

I'll fill up semi synth on my next oil change & observe for leaks.

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it.


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Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
But what washer is he talking about which would render the existing oil useless
It is the drain plug washer. He said so because after removing old oil, it is not advisable to fill it back. Once removed some dirt/dust might spoil the oil. There is also, the possibility of some spillage which would make the oil level low after filling it back.

I am going to clean the area now with soap water so that all oily residue is washed off.

Thanks.

Last edited by JustCause : 13th January 2012 at 17:08.
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Old 13th January 2012, 17:56   #259
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Default Re: Slow oil leak

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Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
Hi DeOetelaar, true, the Ajusa catalog mentions 2 head-gaskets for the K10A, however this page mentions 2 versions of the K10A engine - a naturally aspirated version with ~67 Bhp & a turbo-charged version with ~100 Bhp. These numbers appear to match the Bhp numbers mentioned against the 2 K10A head-gaskets in the Ajusa catalog.

Coming back to the F10D head-gasket I have here, its width is 32.5 cms long & its height is 13.2 cms. Here are a few pics of the head gasket along with a measuring scale.

Hoping these pics will clear the confusion...
Hi im_srini,
Thanks for the pictures. These are very helpful and I agree that it should be cleared now finally. I just have a small ruler here to check but my gasket has the same high and the holes have the same wide. I think I will give it to the garage now.

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
I think you have the right gasket. Do check against Srini's pictures though. And drop a line to the manufacturers about the mislabeling.
I think we are now at 100%. There should be no doubt left. Yes I will drop them a line.

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Originally Posted by JustCause View Post
I currently have Mobil1 synthetic oil filled & my service is due in June 2012.
Just one thought .... why full synthetic? I donīt know the prices in India but here itīs very very expensive and there is no need. For an Alto 10w should be enough.
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Old 13th January 2012, 19:01   #260
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Default Re: Slow oil leak

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Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
Just one thought .... why full synthetic? I donīt know the prices in India but here itīs very very expensive and there is no need. For an Alto 10w should be enough.
I use it for the added smoothness it gives to a coarse engine. Yes, it costs Rs 1000/liter but, it makes the engine an iota more responsive too. I also found 0W40 to be significantly good on wintry morning starts.

@all

I cleaned up the sump area with soap water. I have cleaned it up to the best of my reach(car was not jacked up). Here are the pics.

Alto Issues-13012012094.jpg
Alto Issues-13012012095.jpg

Last edited by JustCause : 13th January 2012 at 19:02.
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Old 13th January 2012, 19:26   #261
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Default Re: Slow oil leak

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Originally Posted by JustCause View Post
Is it possible for the sump hole to develop deformation after just two oil changes?
As the drain hole is at the bottom and not protected, it can be damaged if a large object hits it - brush against a boulder, or the edge of a crater. Once hit at an oblique angle the drain plug can deform the hole slightly to induce a leak.

This can also be the reason, once you changed to synthetic oil
Motor Oil: Synthetic vs. Non-Synthetic - Popular Mechanics

In my opinion synthetic oil is an overkill for normal use, unless you are running at high revs constantly, or traveling in regions of extreme cold/heat. Secondly most of the synthetic oils have the same service interval as mineral oil.

Myth #9: Synthetics last forever.
Untrue. Although some experts feel that synthetic basestocks themselves can be used forever, it is well known that eventually the additives will falter and cause the oil to require changing. Moisture, fuel dilution and acids (the by-products of combustion) tend to use up additives in an oil, allowing degradation to occur.
However , by "topping off", additives can be replenished. Through good filtration and periodic oil analysis, synthetic motor oils protect an engine for lengths of time far beyond the capability of non-synthetics.

What is Synthetic Motor Oil
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Old 13th January 2012, 20:28   #262
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Default Re: Slow oil leak

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
Once hit at an oblique angle the drain plug can deform the hole slightly to induce a leak.

This can also be the reason, once you changed to synthetic oil

In my opinion synthetic oil is an overkill for normal use, unless you are running at high revs constantly, or traveling in regions of extreme cold/heat. Secondly most of the synthetic oils have the same service interval as mineral oil.
Now, that you mention it, I found slight oil stains on the valve door gasket, right under the oil filler cap where it was written 12VALVE. The oil had seeped from the gasket to outside and was doing so gradually. This was after my first synthetic oil change at 6K kms & 1yr of ownership. I was prepared for leakage after reading about synthetic oil's characteristics on old engines (the 800cc motor is almost 2 decades old).The seepage was slow to moderate at first, but it subsided later on & never reappeared.

Delhi has climatic extremes,so, I thought synthetic made more sense & also, I was getting better engine response.

I will change to Castrol Magnatec or equivalent semi synth at my next oil change, just to see if the seepage stops.

Last edited by JustCause : 13th January 2012 at 20:32.
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Old 14th January 2012, 07:21   #263
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Default Re: Slow oil leak

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Originally Posted by JustCause View Post
Now, that you mention it, I found slight oil stains on the valve door gasket, right under the oil filler cap where it was written 12VALVE. The oil had seeped from the gasket to outside and was doing so gradually. This was after my first synthetic oil change at 6K kms & 1yr of ownership. I was prepared for leakage after reading about synthetic oil's characteristics on old engines (the 800cc motor is almost 2 decades old).The seepage was slow to moderate at first, but it subsided later on & never reappeared.
The "old" in this context really means old - en engine with lots of KM on the odo, not a new engine but of older generation! The slight stain you observed can happen when they spill a little oil on the sides of the neck while filling.

The leak from the drain nut area can happen only a) if the washer is damaged / missing, b) if they have cross threaded the drain nut while tightening and c) if there was a hit in that area while driving.

Last edited by Gansan : 14th January 2012 at 07:22.
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Old 14th January 2012, 19:39   #264
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Default Re: Slow oil leak

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Originally Posted by JustCause View Post
I use it for the added smoothness it gives to a coarse engine. Yes, it costs Rs 1000/liter but, it makes the engine an iota more responsive too. I also found 0W40 to be significantly good on wintry morning starts.
What do you call winter and climatic extremes? For me itīs winter if I start my Alto at about minus 10 degree celsius. Never had a problem with 10w oil. I think every oil better than 10w would be a problem or in worst case harm the engine. The Alto engines are no high tech machines so they love 10w oil.

Recommendation: Go for a 10w/15w oil from a good brand (mobil, castrol, q8, valvoline...) and with the saved money go to the cinema with your kids or have a luxury dinner with your wife/girlfriend....
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Old 14th January 2012, 20:45   #265
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
What do you call winter and climatic extremes? For me itīs winter if I start my Alto at about minus 10 degree celsius. Never had a problem with 10w oil. I think every oil better than 10w would be a problem or in worst case harm the engine. The Alto engines are no high tech machines so they love 10w oil.
This is what was suggested by Aroy too. A 'better'/costly oil might actually be causing problems. What oil do you suggest, 10W40 (Default Maruti Oil)or 5W50. I am actually concerned whether the switch from synthetic to mineral will cause even more peculiar problems. Or do I gradually switch to semi synth & then to mineral?

I do agree that the Rs. 3000 price differential is HUGE when comparing Synthetic to regular mineral/Semi Synth. So,I hereby promise to use it productively.

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
The "old" in this context really means old - en engine with lots of KM on the odo, not a new engine but of older generation!
I meant Engines which were of the mineral oil era. These F8 series engines were originally meant for mineral oil & at most, semi synthetic. I read it online on a reputed website that:

1) If Kms wise old engine, previously running on mineral oil is made to run on synthetic, the issue of oil leak crops up.

2) If an engine utilizing old technology is made to run on modern synthetic oil, there is a good chance of oil leaking.

3) If mineral & synthetic oil are mixed. For eg. If synthetic oil in an engine is topped up with regular mineral oil, it leads to oil leak & some gasket issues.

As you can see from pics, there has been no external hit on the sump area. The marks on the nut are tool marks caused by the mechanic. So, it is either the gasket or the sump threads itself.

Do you use 10W40 mineral oil in your Alto?

And the leak on the Valve gasket was identical to that as seen in GPA's ownership thread. Oil was not spilled, it was gradually seeping out.

Last edited by JustCause : 14th January 2012 at 20:48.
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Old 14th January 2012, 20:51   #266
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by JustCause View Post
Do you use 10W40 mineral oil in your Alto?
I don't use synthetic, but I know people who do. They don't seem to have any issues.

I use Shell Helix HX-5 (mineral, 15W40, API-SL)

Last edited by Gansan : 14th January 2012 at 20:53.
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Old 15th January 2012, 06:13   #267
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by JustCause View Post
This is what was suggested by Aroy too. A 'better'/costly oil might actually be causing problems. What oil do you suggest, 10W40 (Default Maruti Oil)or 5W50. I am actually concerned whether the switch from synthetic to mineral will cause even more peculiar problems. Or do I gradually switch to semi synth & then to mineral?

Do you use 10W40 mineral oil in your Alto?
Well Maruti 10w40 should be a good option whatever brand of oil is inside.
I donīt get any Maruti oil here.....
My last oil was 5w40 which I got cheap and I would not use this again. I had a bad feeling. I just bought 5 litres 10w40 of Liquid Moly (Made in Germany - donīt know if itīs available in India) which will be filled in after the head gasket has been repaired. Before I had different brands filled in by my garage (donīt know if semi synthetic or not) but always 10w40. Well it seems that the Altos do like all 10w and below oils.
Donīt craze with the oil matter you donīt drive a Porsche.

Last edited by DeOetelaar : 15th January 2012 at 06:17.
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Old 23rd January 2012, 02:40   #268
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Hi all!
Well with your help the head gasket is now repaired and it was the right one!

But there are still a few issues. The engine light above the immobilizer is still on. What exactly does this mean? What I have to do?
See here my tacho area in this post
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2588517 (Alto Issues)


The second is that the ignition cable to the spark plug of cylinder 2 is broken. Is this anything special or is this just a standard ignition cable which I found at NGK? I see just one order number. Are there different lenghts?


The mechanic has used a cable for VW which he found in his garage. Well it works but itīs not a solution at all.

Regards
DeOetelaar
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Old 23rd January 2012, 14:22   #269
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
Hi all ! Well with your help the head gasket is now repaired and it was the right one !
Glad that that issue has been solved

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Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
The engine light above the immobilizer is still on. What exactly does this mean ? What I have to do ?
The "check engine light" or MIL (for Malfunction Indicator Light) as Maruti-Suzuki calls it, is indicating that the ECU has detected issues with one or more of the engine sensors. You'd need a Tech-2 (a GM diagnostic tool) for this, or you could "jump" a couple of terminals in the "monitor coupler" (in the fuse & relay box in the engine bay). You can get more information regarding this by reading from this post (Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed) onwards...

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Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
The second is that the ignition cable to the spark plug of cylinder 2 is broken.
The Alto uses 2 DDLI coils for ignition, the F10D engine has wasted spark ignition - basically the first DDLI coil provides spark for the first & fourth cylinders, the second DDLI coil provides spark for the second & third cylinders. Here's a pic...

Name:  Alto_F10D_DDLI_0.JPG
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I think the same DDLI coils are used for the F10D Alto & Wagon-R, the G13B Swift, & the G16B Baleno. Will post the part numbers tonight...

Last edited by im_srini : 23rd January 2012 at 14:25.
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Old 23rd January 2012, 19:03   #270
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Default Re: Alto Issues

I think I saw this late, but I have also used Synthetic in my car a couple of times before switching to semi-synthetic.

I had used Mobil 1 & hadn't faced any issues, except that the motor had seemed to have had gulped down a can of Red Bull

But then the only reason I didn't use them more was because they didn't seem economically viable for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
I don't use synthetic, but I know people who do. They don't seem to have any issues.

I use Shell Helix HX-5 (mineral, 15W40, API-SL)
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