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Old 24th June 2014, 16:38   #586
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
Hi!
As I checked the engine I notice an unplugged cable hanging around....
A pic of that unplugged hanging cable would help.
Quote:
I guess this will be the reason for this issue. But where I have to plug it in?
Refer the below picture on the set-up (for 4 Cylinder F10D Engine)
Alto Issues-alto_f10d_ddli_2.jpg
Image courtesy: Flip few pages back here (Alto Issues)

As you can see, the 4 cylinder F10D will have 2 coils mounted on 2 Cylinders and each coil supplying power to 4 plugs.

While underneath the coil itself is a stem that goes into one cylinder (thus 2 coils having 2 stems), there is an extended cable with another stem to power the second cylinder.

Quote:
Very strange... I took a photo. The cable is between the drivebelt box and cylinder head you see the end of the cable at the left side of the photo. Could somebody check where it has to be plugged in?
Slowly pull that cable out to see if the other hanging end comes handy. If yes, Plug that in.

Last edited by paragsachania : 24th June 2014 at 16:40.
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Old 24th June 2014, 18:33   #587
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
A pic of that unplugged hanging cable would help.
Refer the below picture on the set-up (for 4 Cylinder F10D Engine)
Image courtesy: Flip few pages back here (Alto Issues)

As you can see, the 4 cylinder F10D will have 2 coils mounted on 2 Cylinders and each coil supplying power to 4 plugs.

While underneath the coil itself is a stem that goes into one cylinder (thus 2 coils having 2 stems), there is an extended cable with another stem to power the second cylinder.


Slowly pull that cable out to see if the other hanging end comes handy. If yes, Plug that in.
Hi paragsachania!

Sorry, my photo was not clear. I guess the problem is not an ignition cable.... see the red arrow to the plug I mean.... where does this belong to? It comes from the ignition section but whjere I have to plug it?
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Old 24th June 2014, 19:03   #588
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
Hi paragsachania!

Sorry, my photo was not clear. I guess the problem is not an ignition cable.... see the red arrow to the plug I mean.... where does this belong to? It comes from the ignition section but whjere I have to plug it?
I don't think that piece of wire has got anything to do with the Ignition coil as it looks. Seems like a grounding wire for some accessory (Horn/Remote Locking hooter etc).

If the Dashboard is displaying malfunction indicator, you better remove all the ignition coils, pull out the plugs, clean it and refit.

More likely the problem will get resolved.

It can either be a bad plug (dead) or a cable not making contact with one of the plugs.

Last edited by paragsachania : 24th June 2014 at 19:05.
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Old 24th June 2014, 19:31   #589
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
I don't think that piece of wire has got anything to do with the Ignition coil as it looks. Seems like a grounding wire for some accessory (Horn/Remote Locking hooter etc).

If the Dashboard is displaying malfunction indicator, you better remove all the ignition coils, pull out the plugs, clean it and refit.

More likely the problem will get resolved.

It can either be a bad plug (dead) or a cable not making contact with one of the plugs.
To check the whole plugs is what I wanted to do first and then I noticed this wire which comes directly from the ignition section..... Itīs hard for me to believe that this cable has no sense....
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Old 24th June 2014, 19:36   #590
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
To check the whole plugs is what I wanted to do first and then I noticed this wire which comes directly from the ignition section..... Itīs hard for me to believe that this cable has no sense....
If I notice your picture carefully, the bolt is a grounding point for that cable (with that ribbed case), and that hanging wire with that black connector seems like a cable from some accessory (mentioned earlier) which also has used the same ground point.

I can only check the same in my WagonR (F10D again) and confirm if I too have such a cable and follow the source and let you know. Otherwise, You must still check the plugs anyways.
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Old 24th June 2014, 19:51   #591
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
If I notice your picture carefully, the bolt is a grounding point for that cable (with that ribbed case), and that hanging wire with that black connector seems like a cable from some accessory (mentioned earlier) which also has used the same ground point.

I can only check the same in my WagonR (F10D again) and confirm if I too have such a cable and follow the source and let you know. Otherwise, You must still check the plugs anyways.
Yes, I understand what you mean now....
Let me explain: The hanging wire comes alone out of the ripped case.
Itīs just 1 line! The silver bolt/screw has nothing to do with the cable. Looks a bit confused on the photo. I would appreciate it you could check this at your f10d. You will see then what I mean. Glad to find somebody with this engine.

Last edited by DeOetelaar : 24th June 2014 at 19:52.
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Old 24th June 2014, 20:46   #592
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Post Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
The hanging wire comes alone out of the ripped case.
Itīs just 1 line !
Hello DeOetelaar,

The location of the connector is typically where you'd see the horn electrics go.

But this connector appears to be part of the main ignition harness.

The major sensors on this engine are A) MAP sensor, B) Coolant Temperature sensor, C) Inlet Air Temperature sensor, D) Throttle Position sensor, E) CamShaft Position sensor, F) O2 sensor & G) CrankShaft Position sensor.

The harness has connectors for all these sensors, in addition 4 connectors for the fuel injectors & 2 connectors for the DDLI coils.

You could jack up the car & check underneath if this connector has an obvious counterpart.

If this connector isn't related to any regular electrical item it could be for the Speed sensor or the Crankshaft Position sensor ( I'm just guessing here ).

If all your electrics ( Horn, Lights, Radiator fan, etc. ) work & you're able to start the engine, but your MIL is still ON, here's a link to a series of posts (Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed) on diagnosing the issue without a Tech-2 or an SDT.

I think I have a picture of a new harness, will post it once I've located it !

Last edited by im_srini : 24th June 2014 at 21:01.
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Old 25th June 2014, 10:10   #593
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
Hi paragsachania!

Sorry, my photo was not clear. I guess the problem is not an ignition cable.... see the red arrow to the plug I mean.... where does this belong to? It comes from the ignition section but whjere I have to plug it?
Hi DeOetelaar,

I had the Alto VX 1.1 for a while. The wire that is hanging loose is 99.9% from the O2 sensor which is mounted on the exhaust manifold. Also, given the length of the wire that is hanging loose, that seems to be the most probable sensor/plug to reach. The size of the connector on the wire too points towards that. Towards the front of the car, there would be a metal plate with a "HOT" warning inscribed on it. The O2 sensor is located on it or just below it.

Hope this helps.

IndianV2

Last edited by indianv2 : 25th June 2014 at 10:13. Reason: Added a required detail.
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Old 25th June 2014, 13:50   #594
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
Hello DeOetelaar,

The location of the connector is typically where you'd see the horn electrics go.

But this connector appears to be part of the main ignition harness.

The major sensors on this engine are A) MAP sensor, B) Coolant Temperature sensor, C) Inlet Air Temperature sensor, D) Throttle Position sensor, E) CamShaft Position sensor, F) O2 sensor & G) CrankShaft Position sensor.

The harness has connectors for all these sensors, in addition 4 connectors for the fuel injectors & 2 connectors for the DDLI coils.

You could jack up the car & check underneath if this connector has an obvious counterpart.

If this connector isn't related to any regular electrical item it could be for the Speed sensor or the Crankshaft Position sensor ( I'm just guessing here ).

If all your electrics ( Horn, Lights, Radiator fan, etc. ) work & you're able to start the engine, but your MIL is still ON, here's a link to a series of posts (Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed) on diagnosing the issue without a Tech-2 or an SDT.

I think I have a picture of a new harness, will post it once I've located it !
Hello im_srini,

good to have you on board!
Thanks for the detailed information.
I connected now a diagnostic tool to check the fault memory.
Misfire in Cylinder no. 1 and 2. Which cylinders are 1 & 2 for a proper check?
I erased the fault memory and drove now 40km. The MIL is still off.
The car runs much better. Nearly as good as before. The only thing occures is that the car has sometimes problems with acceleration. Mainly between 1000-2000rpm. You want to speed up but it hangs and then suddenly itīs like a boost. While driving it jerks sometimes also.
Hmmm... the last days were wet here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indianv2 View Post
Hi DeOetelaar,

I had the Alto VX 1.1 for a while. The wire that is hanging loose is 99.9% from the O2 sensor which is mounted on the exhaust manifold. Also, given the length of the wire that is hanging loose, that seems to be the most probable sensor/plug to reach. The size of the connector on the wire too points towards that. Towards the front of the car, there would be a metal plate with a "HOT" warning inscribed on it. The O2 sensor is located on it or just below it.

Hope this helps.

IndianV2
Hi IndianV2,

Thanks for your hint. If this wire belongs to the oxygen sensor in indian models then itīs maybe needless for me as paragsachania mentioned.
Here in Europe this Alto has 2 sensors. One before the convertor at the exhaust manifold and one after the convertor. I removed the "HOT" plate completely while I had massive trouble removing the first oxygen sensor some time ago. In Europe this sensor has 4 wires and the sensor is located on the right side of the exhaust manifold. Itīs the other side and so unreachable for the wire we are talking about I think. I checked again the reachable area for this wire but there is nothing...
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Old 25th June 2014, 15:17   #595
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Post Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
I connected now a diagnostic tool to check the fault memory.
Misfire in Cylinder no. 1 and 2.
Which cylinders are 1 & 2 for a proper check ?
Hello DeOetelaar, I'm currently away from home & will not have access to the Service-Manual till this weekend.
If I remember correct, the No. 1 cylinder is on the crankshaft pulley side, i.e. the timing belt end ( opposite side of the transmission ).
The firing order is 1-3-4-2.
For a misfire, typical culprit would be the spark-plugs, you could also check the 2 DDLI coils.
In the F10D, one DDLI coil sparks cylinders 1 & 4, the other one sparks 2 & 3.
It seems unlikely that both DDLI coils have developed an issue ( since the misfire is on cylinders 1 & 2 ).
One thing I have noticed is that the outer shell of the coil can develop cracks & cause unwanted sparking ( leakage ) between the coil & the head.
It's best to check when it's dark since these sparks would be barely noticeable.
It would also help to check the connectors which connect the ignition harness to the coils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
The only thing occures is that the car has sometimes problems with acceleration.
Mainly between 1000 - 2000 rpm.
You want to speed up but it hangs and then suddenly itīs like a boost.
While driving it jerks sometimes also.
A couple of things come to mind:
You could check the accelerator cable for play & easy movement.
Also, check the throttle butterfly for easy movement.
Another place to check would be the fuel filter ( for debris ).
Another source of jerks, particularly when setting off from a stop, is worn engine mounts.
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Old 25th June 2014, 17:49   #596
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
Hello DeOetelaar, I'm currently away from home & will not have access to the Service-Manual till this weekend.
If I remember correct, the No. 1 cylinder is on the crankshaft pulley side, i.e. the timing belt end ( opposite side of the transmission ).
The firing order is 1-3-4-2.
For a misfire, typical culprit would be the spark-plugs, you could also check the 2 DDLI coils.
In the F10D, one DDLI coil sparks cylinders 1 & 4, the other one sparks 2 & 3.
It seems unlikely that both DDLI coils have developed an issue ( since the misfire is on cylinders 1 & 2 ).
One thing I have noticed is that the outer shell of the coil can develop cracks & cause unwanted sparking ( leakage ) between the coil & the head.
It's best to check when it's dark since these sparks would be barely noticeable.
It would also help to check the connectors which connect the ignition harness to the coils.

A couple of things come to mind:
You could check the accelerator cable for play & easy movement.
Also, check the throttle butterfly for easy movement.
Another place to check would be the fuel filter ( for debris ).
Another source of jerks, particularly when setting off from a stop, is worn engine mounts.
If it starts with cylinder No.1 is on the left side I will have a closer look at this then. I checked several connections already and all look like they are OK. Engine Mounts is a good advice. If you stop to accelerate at higher rpm and the engine will brake I noticed some jolting.... well all comes together and itīs time for a new car I think....

btw. I noticed the pics in your garage. The old white lady looks great. You added some nice things. I also noticed your new Alto. It has the same engine as the new Alto (A-Star) here in Europe. Good to know. Maybe I will buy an Alto again. My generally Alto spare parts problem is solved due to the Nissan Pixo hopefully.
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Old 26th June 2014, 13:48   #597
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Hi!
I think the matter with the bad running engine has been solved. Today the car rocked as before. Strange issue.
Hopefully it will keep the performance.
The weather was very cold and wet here before. Well I thought indian cars are able to survive a monsoon.
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Old 27th June 2014, 15:22   #598
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Smile Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
I noticed the pics in your garage.
The old white lady looks great.
She does, doesn't she ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
I also noticed your new Alto.
It has the same engine as the new Alto (A-Star) here in Europe.
Yes, the engine in the Alto K10 is the same as in the erstwhile A-Star.
However, I think the cars meant for export have the K10BB engine, which has Variable-Valve-Timing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
I think the matter with the bad running engine has been solved.
Today the car rocked as before.
The weather was very cold and wet here before.
Well I thought indian cars are able to survive a monsoon.
Good to know your Alto's back on its feet.
The rain's usually not a problem, but the cold typically is.
The F10D engine is very simple, if not basic, hence extremely reliable & forgiving.
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Old 29th June 2014, 15:54   #599
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Post Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
As actual issue I have trouble with the brakes.
Suddenly the brake pedal has too much tolerance/range till the brake will work.
I think there are some possibilities within the brake system what this could be. (Main) brake cylinder ?
Hi Frank,
According to the Service-Manual, if there is excessive play in the brake pedal, the things to be checked are:
A) Rear brake linings - there is an inspection port behind the rear brake drums ( usually covered with a rubber plug ), you can use these to check the thickness of the brake linings
B) Air in the brake lines - Needs a regular brake bleed job
C) Clearance between some 'rod' within the brake booster & another 'rod' within the master cylinder
Will post pics later in the day...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeOetelaar View Post
As I checked the engine I notice an unplugged cable hanging around....
I guess this will be the reason for this issue. But where I have to plug it in ?
Could somebody check where it has to be plugged in ?
In my Alto, there's a similar connector that plugs into another connector on the A/C Compressor.
Not sure what it is for though, couldn't find anything relevant from a hurried look through the Service-Manual.
Again, will post pics later...
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Old 30th June 2014, 19:36   #600
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
Hi Frank,
According to the Service-Manual, if there is excessive play in the brake pedal, the things to be checked are:
A) Rear brake linings - there is an inspection port behind the rear brake drums ( usually covered with a rubber plug ), you can use these to check the thickness of the brake linings
B) Air in the brake lines - Needs a regular brake bleed job
C) Clearance between some 'rod' within the brake booster & another 'rod' within the master cylinder
Will post pics later in the day...
Hi im_srini,

The reason was a massive loss of brake fluid.
There must be a leak somewhere. I had refilled the brake fluid and check every day the level. Itīs ok for now. But itīs not a long term solution of course. But at the moment I donīt know where the fluid vanished. I canīt see a significant loss at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
In my Alto, there's a similar connector that plugs into another connector on the A/C Compressor.
Not sure what it is for though, couldn't find anything relevant from a hurried look through the Service-Manual.
Again, will post pics later...
I havenīt A/C and so this might be the reason.
No A/C = One wire too much....
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