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Old 21st October 2011, 22:04   #121
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Default Re: Alto Issues

the Alto 1.1 had four cylinder and was the same motor that was put in Wagon R and first Generation Estillo. So the power to weight was good with that engine. It was way powerful and nimble. The price difference between Alto LX and VX was way too much. But average joe at that time didn't knew that VX had one cylinder more than the LX.
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Old 21st October 2011, 23:48   #122
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by swarnava.m View Post
As per my experience, the 1.1 is a free runner when you drive without AC. The moment the AC is switched on, the lag is immense and the engine becomes so sluggish.
Shouldn't be the case. Drive the older WagonR and compare.

The 1.1 had some severe (handling) problems, but straight line power wasn't one of those. (I'd love to test it out against the K10. In a rolling start, I'm sure the 1.1 would come out ahead.)

Both the Alto 1.1 and the 5 speed 800 were scrapped because these did not fit in with Maruti's ideas of positioning and price.

How much has the car run? When was the last time you changed the gearoil?

Regards
Sutripta

Last edited by Sutripta : 21st October 2011 at 23:53.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 00:02   #123
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Shouldn't be the case. Drive the older WagonR and compare.

The 1.1 had some severe (handling) problems, but straight line power wasn't one of those. (I'd love to test it out against the K10. In a rolling start, I'm sure the 1.1 would come out ahead.)

Both the Alto 1.1 and the 5 speed 800 were scrapped because these did not fit in with Maruti's ideas of positioning and price.

How much has the car run? When was the last time you changed the gearoil?

Regards
Sutripta
The car has currently clocked 62k, and gear oil was last changed at around 58k. And the issue about the AC isn't new, it's been there ever since I started driving the car, which would be somewhere around 2-3 years back. Since then, I have been using the car most of the time, and I rarely drive with the AC on. Before that, my father used the car, and he used the AC all the time.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 12:15   #124
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by swarnava.m View Post
Well how does the performance of the engine change when the AC is switched on? Especially in lower gears, in the city. As per my experience, the 1.1 is a free runner when you drive without AC. The moment the AC is switched on, the lag is immense and the engine becomes so sluggish. That would be the only negative point about my car.
Well in the K10, even with one person, the AC makes the car sluggish below 30 km/h in third. After 60 there is no effect (I tested it a number of times by switching the AC on and off while driving at 60).

With AC on I do not go below 15 km/h in second. Without AC you can merrily start in second. So it boils down to lot more load at lower speeds with AC on. On highways if you down shift at 60-70 in second you can zoom through till 100 for overtaking, AC or no AC.

On the whole for B2b traffic with AC first and second is the norm. Once you cross 30 you can shift rapidly to third, fourth and fifth (30, 45, 60).
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Old 22nd October 2011, 15:07   #125
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
Well in the K10, even with one person, the AC makes the car sluggish below 30 km/h in third. After 60 there is no effect (I tested it a number of times by switching the AC on and off while driving at 60).

With AC on I do not go below 15 km/h in second. Without AC you can merrily start in second. So it boils down to lot more load at lower speeds with AC on. On highways if you down shift at 60-70 in second you can zoom through till 100 for overtaking, AC or no AC.

On the whole for B2b traffic with AC first and second is the norm. Once you cross 30 you can shift rapidly to third, fourth and fifth (30, 45, 60).
Alrite, thanks for that. Sounds very similar to my car, then.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 16:14   #126
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Default Re: Alto Issues

^^I am surprised. These are the traits of the 800cc Alto. I had expected the 1.1 and the K10 to be much better.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 18:16   #127
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^^I am surprised. These are the traits of the 800cc Alto. I had expected the 1.1 and the K10 to be much better.
The 1.1 and K10 are definitely better than the 800, but these are small engines, mated to very powerful AC now a days. With M800 the AC was puny and barely cooled, hence it loaded the engine less. With K10 the AC is powerful and you pay the price in terms of performance. Even my Esteem would be relatively sluggish at low speeds with AC. It is only when you go to larger engined cars that AC has less bearing on performance at low speeds.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 18:26   #128
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
The 1.1 and K10 are definitely better than the 800, but these are small engines, mated to very powerful AC now a days. With M800 the AC was puny and barely cooled, hence it loaded the engine less. With K10 the AC is powerful and you pay the price in terms of performance. Even my Esteem would be relatively sluggish at low speeds with AC. It is only when you go to larger engined cars that AC has less bearing on performance at low speeds.
Completely agree with Aroy. In my captiva and accord, the difference is barely noticeable. It seems like the car just doesn't care whether the AC is running or not.

In addition, contrary to what I have read on many threads in this forum, the difference in FE while using AC is major. While driving without AC and 5 people in the car I get an FE of 15-16 kmpl, with AC it drops as low as 12. In cars with larger engines, (eg. Captiva) there is hardly any change in the FE, as per my experience.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 19:45   #129
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
The 1.1 had some severe (handling) problems,
Sutripta
This is because the extra HP were pushing the other parts like the suspension to its limits. Alto 800 is touted as a better handler but, as soon as we plant the K10 engine in it, we see handling problems, simply because the extra power is not matched by better brakes & a tuned suspension.

The 1.1 sold internationally had an ABS kit.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 21:16   #130
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by swarnava.m View Post
The car has currently clocked 62k, and gear oil was last changed at around 58k. And the issue about the AC isn't new, it's been there ever since I started driving the car, which would be somewhere around 2-3 years back.
An Alto 1.1 is difficult to get hold of. So it might be difficult for you to do a A-B comparison. But do compare with a normal Alto and a (older) WagonR to find out if your car really has a problem, or your expectations are unrealastic.

Re: GBox. I can think of two reasons why shift quality will deteriorate as the day progresses.
A) The gear oil thinning out is exposing the problems of a well worn gearbox. (remember the old dishonest 2nd hand car dealers trick of thicker gear oil + sawdust. But at 62K, GB should have no problem).
B) As the car heats up, for some reason the clutch is not disengaging properly. Needs to be checked.

Are you sure the right grade of gearoil was put in when it was changed? Or any time previously.

@JustCause: Mix of causes. Undertyred. More power. But (I feel) most importantly, significant change in weight distribution)

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 22nd October 2011, 23:17   #131
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
An Alto 1.1 is difficult to get hold of. So it might be difficult for you to do a A-B comparison. But do compare with a normal Alto and a (older) WagonR to find out if your car really has a problem, or your expectations are unrealastic.

Re: GBox. I can think of two reasons why shift quality will deteriorate as the day progresses.
A) The gear oil thinning out is exposing the problems of a well worn gearbox. (remember the old dishonest 2nd hand car dealers trick of thicker gear oil + sawdust. But at 62K, GB should have no problem).
B) As the car heats up, for some reason the clutch is not disengaging properly. Needs to be checked.

Are you sure the right grade of gearoil was put in when it was changed? Or any time previously.

@JustCause: Mix of causes. Undertyred. More power. But (I feel) most importantly, significant change in weight distribution)

Regards
Sutripta
I'll have to check with my service engineer about the gear oil. Will update on this by next week, that's when the service is due.

And yes, a 1.1 Alto is extremely rare. I have spotted very few on the road. Might get hold of a WagonR, and have a comparison done. Although, I might be expecting too much, for as you said, some of my friends do have the opinion that they are unrealistic.

About the clutch, last time I had taken the car to the workshop for an issue with the fuel filter, I asked the guy to take a drive, and after a round, he suggested that the clutch needs replacing. Though this sounded overly improbable to me, it may just be the case that the clutch has an issue. Will get that checked as well this time.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 23:26   #132
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Default Re: Alto Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
The 1.1 had some severe (handling) problems, but straight line power wasn't one of those. (I'd love to test it out against the K10. In a rolling start, I'm sure the 1.1 would come out ahead.)
The handling of both the Altos, the 800 and 1100 are identical. But the 1100 with its higher power and refined (compared with the 800) engine is capable of achieving higher speeds and therefore would create a virtual deficiency which is only illusory. This can be overcome with a tyre upgrade. The 1100 came with 155x70x12 compared with the 800's 145x80x12 OE fitment, which itself enabled the 1100 to handle better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarnava.m View Post
I rarely drive with the AC on. Before that, my father used the car, and he used the AC all the time.
BTB I remember one of your your post in another thread regarding some garage guy advising a clutch replacement and you decided against. How is the clutch now/ Kindly post an update.

Last edited by rajeev k : 22nd October 2011 at 23:32. Reason: correction
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Old 23rd October 2011, 00:23   #133
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post

Both the Alto 1.1 and the 5 speed 800 were scrapped because these did not fit in with Maruti's ideas of positioning and price.

Yes but both were excellent purpose built cars. Probably the best from Maruti stables. Only a 1.3 zen from Maruti could have topped this. Unfortunately they dint ring the bell with the average customer who was too uninformed to know what extra was he getting for his buck.

Lucky for me I bought both & both are a hoot to drive even after 10 yrs.

Going by the number of k10's on road I guess the scene has changed now and customer is much wiser today with access to a plethora of forums on line and auto magazines on stand.

Between I agree that 800 alto is better handler than 1.1 alto. Weight distribution is a bit messed up in 1.1 but its power and driveability more than makes up for it.

Also I find the 800cc 12 valve motor more refined and rev-happy than 1.1. Any thoughts on that.

cheers

vishwas
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Old 23rd October 2011, 08:56   #134
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
The handling of both the Altos, the 800 and 1100 are identical. But the 1100 with its higher power and refined (compared with the 800) engine is capable of achieving higher speeds and therefore would create a virtual deficiency which is only illusory. This can be overcome with a tyre upgrade. The 1100 came with 155x70x12 compared with the 800's 145x80x12 OE fitment, which itself enabled the 1100 to handle better.



BTB I remember one of your your post in another thread regarding some garage guy advising a clutch replacement and you decided against. How is the clutch now/ Kindly post an update.
I am not sure about the tyres as you have mentioned, as my car came factory fitted with 145x80 R12 tyres, but I am sure that going for an upsize will improve the handling immensely.

About the clutch, I am still driving on the same clutch. The car is going to the workshop next week for servicing, as well as a little body work and replacement of the front strut assembly (both sides). Will take a final call about the clutch then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishwaschettri View Post
Also I find the 800cc 12 valve motor more refined and rev-happy than 1.1. Any thoughts on that.
I wouldn't be too sure about that, as after driving the 800c alto, I feel it is very much underpowered (maybe because I am too used to the 1100).
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Old 23rd October 2011, 13:35   #135
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Default Re: Alto Issues

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Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
The handling of both the Altos, the 800 and 1100 are identical.
Not my impression/ opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishwaschettri View Post
Yes but both were excellent purpose built cars. Probably the best from Maruti stables. Only a 1.3 zen from Maruti could have topped this.
....
Also I find the 800cc 12 valve motor more refined and rev-happy than 1.1. Any thoughts on that.

cheers

vishwas
A person after my own heart!
I went to buy the 1.1. Got put off by the handling. Bought the M800 5 speed instead. Downgraded from a Zen. Was (and still am) happy with that decision. Which is why I haven't sold the 5 speed. Plan to use it in winter. (Use an Alto K10 now. The spiritual successor to the Zen).

The 1.1 revved as hard, but there is something about the 3 pots (both F8 and K10). These beg to be revved hard. I oblige, and smile.

Regards
Sutripta
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