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Old 3rd August 2012, 18:22   #316
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

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Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
Zen 2003 MPFI Euro II , 78000Kms
I have a issue with my zen which is refusing to go away since last few months.
When the car gets to working temperatures and in traffic snarls / hot days the issue arises only at slow speeds or during move from idle .I will try to explain i am standing in traffic i press clutch press accelerator and just as i am letting go of clutch i get this loud jolt (as if the car just dies down on me) to make me move back and forth along with car (like newbie riders who are unable to control clutch). So i often have to slip the clutch a bit or give the car a bit more gas to avoid this bucking down.
Till now i have changed spark plug s, fuel filter , injectors , ignition coil , IAC Valve , Throttle body with TPS sensor , also a gas relief valve (orange and black in color) located above fuel tank (fuel tank has to removed to replace this) . All wiring connectors , battery , alternator , raditator temp sensor etc have been checked are all in excellent working condition.
The car run fine with no hesitation or jolt on highway speed / rainy days / night .It does not have any idle issues .The Suzuki scanning tool shows everthing is perfect . The petrol tank is clean no water , rust etc .Also filter and fuel pumps works fine as was seen upon dismantling at MASS.

I had started using IOCL Extra Premium about 6 months back (adding System G to that also ) but i dont think issue could be because of that .Do You?

Any thoughts please since i am only left with fuel pump , FPR to replace ?
I am totally against the wall feel like i go and buy a new car if i am unable to solve it .

I am facing the same issue with my 2004 Zen. When parked in hot sun for a while, the car jolts as though it has run out of breath for a minute or two. If you rev the engine hard, the problem goes away.

Did a compression test and found everything to be OK. But being a Stock Zen, my car still manages to touch 160 without a fuss. By the way, I have clocked 124,400 kms.
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Old 24th December 2012, 10:21   #317
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Default Dry (?drive) Shaft noise?

My Zen just went for a routine service @ 172000km, the only notable complaint being some noise from the front axle while taking a full turn of the wheel, especially during 'U' turns. There was no noise on straight driving or usual turns.
The suspension was just checked as the struts and some other parts had been replaced at the same MASS, and they were aware of it.
The S.A. & supervisor said it was noise coming from the ?drive (I heard dry!!) shaft, and the only solution was to replace the axle. However, he also said that since the noise appears only on fully locking into a turn and not otherwise, one option was to just wait and see how it progresses. When I asked about the risks, he said the only thing that may happen is that the steering may not "return" back automatically after a full turn and I will have to manually rotate to bring it back.
Does anyone have any experience with this issue and how to go about it? Thanks.
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Old 24th December 2012, 13:01   #318
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

Yes if its the kat kat sound at full lock, it is indeed the drive shaft. Don't bother to repair, just replace it. Costs around 3.5k for the M800, not sure what it costs for the Zen.
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Old 24th December 2012, 22:23   #319
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Default Re: Dry (?drive) Shaft noise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen2001 View Post
My Zen just went for a routine service @ 172000km, the only notable complaint being some noise from the front axle while taking a full turn of the wheel, especially during 'U' turns. There was no noise on straight driving or usual turns.
The suspension was just checked as the struts and some other parts had been replaced at the same MASS, and they were aware of it.
The S.A. & supervisor said it was noise coming from the ?drive (I heard dry!!) shaft, and the only solution was to replace the axle. However, he also said that since the noise appears only on fully locking into a turn and not otherwise, one option was to just wait and see how it progresses. When I asked about the risks, he said the only thing that may happen is that the steering may not "return" back automatically after a full turn and I will have to manually rotate to bring it back.
Does anyone have any experience with this issue and how to go about it? Thanks.
Hi Zen2001,
I have gone through the same experience...
My MASS diagnosed the same, in my car the noise would come when the steering is turned fully to the right and if the road is uneven...one can hardly notice the noise...i have driven for more than 10,000 kms after the so called diagnosis...My car runs fine without changing the axle.

If your steering is not returning back , then get your wheel alignment checked. i dnt have any such problems

the quote given to me for the drive-shaft/axle was Rs7500 + 3k to 4k labour.

Alternatively, you can also re-do the grease packing around the universal joints at a local mechanic shop.
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Old 25th December 2012, 04:28   #320
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Default Re: Dry (?drive) Shaft noise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen2001 View Post
My Zen just went for a routine service @ 172000km, the only notable complaint being some noise from the front axle while taking a full turn of the wheel, especially during 'U' turns. There was no noise on straight driving or usual turns.

The S.A. & supervisor said it was noise coming from the ?drive (I heard dry!!) shaft, and the only solution was to replace the axle. However, he also said that since the noise appears only on fully locking into a turn and not otherwise, one option was to just wait and see how it progresses.
Yes, that's definitely a Drive Shaft problem. No doubts about that.

If the sound is heard while making a Right U turn, then the left side Drive shaft has gone bad. If its heard while doing a Left U turn, then the Right side Drive shaft needs to be replaced.

In most cases, only one side fails (very very rarely both). Each side can be independently replaced and not as a pair.

MGP price of the drive shaft for Zen is Rs 3800 (One side) here in Chennai.

Alternatively, if you have a good mechanic -- You could just replace the CV joint alone (commonly called as Bell) within the drive shaft. There is a brand called GSP that makes these kits (CV Joint Kit) for many Indian cars. This kit for Zen costs about Rs 900.

But note that, MASS would not replace the Bell alone. They will only replace the whole drive shaft.
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Old 25th December 2012, 11:49   #321
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen2001 View Post
My Zen just went for a routine service @ 172000km, the only notable complaint being some noise from the front axle while taking a full turn of the wheel, especially during 'U' turns. There was no noise on straight driving or usual turns.
The suspension was just checked as the struts and some other parts had been replaced at the same MASS, and they were aware of it.
The S.A. & supervisor said it was noise coming from the ?drive (I heard dry!!) shaft, and the only solution was to replace the axle. However, he also said that since the noise appears only on fully locking into a turn and not otherwise, one option was to just wait and see how it progresses. When I asked about the risks, he said the only thing that may happen is that the steering may not "return" back automatically after a full turn and I will have to manually rotate to bring it back.
Does anyone have any experience with this issue and how to go about it? Thanks.
I have heard this noise in my Zen (@175k kms now) and replaced the drive shaft at least two times that I remember of. It costed around 4k IIRC. Looks like we are lucky to not have inflation hit on these prices as I see the same price even now. Initially, the sound comes only during full turn. If you wait long enough, you'll start hearing it even before the steering reaches full turn, especially when you are turning reasonably fast. Except for the sound, it is not really a big thing to worry about and you can probably wait a little longer to replace it. I've driven at least 10-15k km without replacing it after hearing the noise and did not encounter any issues. From what I remember as my mechanic's explanation, it is the wear and tear on the ball inside the socket causing the ball to get a little smaller and hence becoming a little loose within the socket. Over time, you'll start hearing this sound more because you need not make the full turn to hear it. I would suggest you to replace it whenever you find the sound irritating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T1000 View Post
Hi Zen2001,
I have gone through the same experience...
My MASS diagnosed the same, in my car the noise would come when the steering is turned fully to the right and if the road is uneven...one can hardly notice the noise...i have driven for more than 10,000 kms after the so called diagnosis...My car runs fine without changing the axle.

If your steering is not returning back , then get your wheel alignment checked. i dnt have any such problems

the quote given to me for the drive-shaft/axle was Rs7500 + 3k to 4k labour.

Alternatively, you can also re-do the grease packing around the universal joints at a local mechanic shop.
Quote seems to be for both sides, and MGP definitely comes as left side and right side separately. Are you hearing the sound when the steering is fully turned to both sides?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon View Post
MGP price of the drive shaft for Zen is Rs 3800 (One side) here in Chennai.

Alternatively, if you have a good mechanic -- You could just replace the CV joint alone (commonly called as Bell) within the drive shaft. There is a brand called GSP that makes these kits (CV Joint Kit) for many Indian cars. This kit for Zen costs about Rs 900.

But note that, MASS would not replace the Bell alone. They will only replace the whole drive shaft.
Either leave it as is or replace, better not to repair it, as the reliability from then on depends on how perfectly it was assembled back by the mechanic. I don't think 4k is too high a price to compromise the peace of mind. Repair would definitely involve more labour costs than replacement and the actual difference may be max 2k.

Last edited by zenren : 25th December 2012 at 11:51.
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Old 25th December 2012, 18:59   #322
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
I have heard this noise in my Zen (@175k kms now) and replaced the drive shaft at least two times that I remember of. It costed around 4k IIRC. Looks like we are lucky to not have inflation hit on these prices as I see the same price even now. Initially, the sound comes only during full turn. If you wait long enough, you'll start hearing it even before the steering reaches full turn, especially when you are turning reasonably fast. Except for the sound, it is not really a big thing to worry about and you can probably wait a little longer to replace it. I've driven at least 10-15k km without replacing it after hearing the noise and did not encounter any issues. From what I remember as my mechanic's explanation, it is the wear and tear on the ball inside the socket causing the ball to get a little smaller and hence becoming a little loose within the socket. Over time, you'll start hearing this sound more because you need not make the full turn to hear it. I would suggest you to replace it whenever you find the sound irritating.



Quote seems to be for both sides, and MGP definitely comes as left side and right side separately. Are you hearing the sound when the steering is fully turned to both sides?
Yes,Quote is for both sides. MASS never replaces anything on one side, be it axle, lower arm or shocks...they always replace a pair or a set..i was happy that he didn't convince me to change my neighbors car axle :-)

Before he narrowed down to axle, i was tricked to change all steering linkages for 6k, which was working fine. the sound was still coming then he asked me to change the axle.

The sound is audible only on full right turn.
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Old 25th December 2012, 23:42   #323
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhorn View Post
Yes if its the kat kat sound at full lock, it is indeed the drive shaft. Don't bother to repair, just replace it. Costs around 3.5k for the M800, not sure what it costs for the Zen.
Thanks, atleast confirms that MASS is not recommending unwanted replacements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by T1000 View Post
Hi Zen2001,
I have gone through the same experience...
My MASS diagnosed the same, in my car the noise would come when the steering is turned fully to the right and if the road is uneven...one can hardly notice the noise...i have driven for more than 10,000 kms after the so called diagnosis...My car runs fine without changing the axle.

If your steering is not returning back , then get your wheel alignment checked. i dnt have any such problems

the quote given to me for the drive-shaft/axle was Rs7500 + 3k to 4k labour.

Alternatively, you can also re-do the grease packing around the universal joints at a local mechanic shop.
I too have driven 3-4k km after the noise actually made its first appearance on full right turns, but there is no other problem otherwise. About the steering not returning, the supervisor said that it may happen in the long run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon View Post
Yes, that's definitely a Drive Shaft problem. No doubts about that.

If the sound is heard while making a Right U turn, then the left side Drive shaft has gone bad. If its heard while doing a Left U turn, then the Right side Drive shaft needs to be replaced.

In most cases, only one side fails (very very rarely both). Each side can be independently replaced and not as a pair.

MGP price of the drive shaft for Zen is Rs 3800 (One side) here in Chennai.

Alternatively, if you have a good mechanic -- You could just replace the CV joint alone (commonly called as Bell) within the drive shaft. There is a brand called GSP that makes these kits (CV Joint Kit) for many Indian cars. This kit for Zen costs about Rs 900.

But note that, MASS would not replace the Bell alone. They will only replace the whole drive shaft.
Thanks for this information. Need to inquire about the feasibility and quality of repair [if at all done] in our local area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
I have heard this noise in my Zen (@175k kms now) and replaced the drive shaft at least two times that I remember of. It costed around 4k IIRC. Looks like we are lucky to not have inflation hit on these prices as I see the same price even now. Initially, the sound comes only during full turn. If you wait long enough, you'll start hearing it even before the steering reaches full turn, especially when you are turning reasonably fast. Except for the sound, it is not really a big thing to worry about and you can probably wait a little longer to replace it. I've driven at least 10-15k km without replacing it after hearing the noise and did not encounter any issues. From what I remember as my mechanic's explanation, it is the wear and tear on the ball inside the socket causing the ball to get a little smaller and hence becoming a little loose within the socket. Over time, you'll start hearing this sound more because you need not make the full turn to hear it. I would suggest you to replace it whenever you find the sound irritating.



Quote seems to be for both sides, and MGP definitely comes as left side and right side separately. Are you hearing the sound when the steering is fully turned to both sides?



Either leave it as is or replace, better not to repair it, as the reliability from then on depends on how perfectly it was assembled back by the mechanic. I don't think 4k is too high a price to compromise the peace of mind. Repair would definitely involve more labour costs than replacement and the actual difference may be max 2k.
Yes, it's more an issue of me noticing the noise, like the worn out joint creaking and crying out for some rest! Lets hope nothing more! Initially the sound was definitely only from RHS, now I suspect it may be even starting on the LHS. If this progresses, I guess replacement with original spares will be the way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T1000 View Post
Yes,Quote is for both sides. MASS never replaces anything on one side, be it axle, lower arm or shocks...they always replace a pair or a set..i was happy that he didn't convince me to change my neighbors car axle :-)

Before he narrowed down to axle, i was tricked to change all steering linkages for 6k, which was working fine. the sound was still coming then he asked me to change the axle.

The sound is audible only on full right turn.
Probably for such long standing wear and tear, replacement sounds a better and safer option. Of course, other sources of trouble need to be checked and rectified.
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Old 25th February 2013, 15:59   #324
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

Crossed the landmark!

Feels like fun has just started!
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Old 12th January 2014, 20:47   #325
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

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Back in my zen days, I used to service the carbs every 20k kms irrespective of its working or not and it had helped me with a trouble free carb when i sold the vehicle at 67k kms. I used to get it done at a small independent garage who used to specialize only on engine tuning.
Hi Jaggu, could you please help us (another bhpian - Shridhar also has the same query in another thread).

Pls let know the garage from where you got the carbs serviced, & I pray that he is there even now.

Thanks.
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Old 13th January 2014, 10:38   #326
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

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Hi Jaggu, could you please help us (another bhpian - Shridhar also has the same query in another thread).

Pls let know the garage from where you got the carbs serviced, & I pray that he is there even now.

Thanks.
He is there but unfortunately this garage is in Kerala, which i presume would not help you. Carb cleaning and tune up can be done by any good mechanic. In Bangalore you can try Stephen, he is on the side of the ulsoor lake and operates his small garage set up from the water service station he owns.
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Old 13th January 2014, 15:13   #327
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
He is there but unfortunately this garage is in Kerala, which i presume would not help you. Carb cleaning and tune up can be done by any good mechanic. In Bangalore you can try Stephen, he is on the side of the ulsoor lake and operates his small garage set up from the water service station he owns.
Hi Jaggu, thanks for the info! Can you tell us where exactly near ulsoor lake or share a screenshot of a google map for the location?

I want a trusted mechanic to have a look at my car before MASS robs me dry! My carb keeps gasping for air for the first km or so every time I start the engine from cold.
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Old 13th January 2014, 19:55   #328
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

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My carb keeps gasping for air for the first km or so every time I start the engine from cold.
If its okay once the temperature gets to normal, then that is the expected behaviour for carb Zen. Let it warm up with the choke for 30-45 seconds before starting to drive during cold start and you should be fine.

If you can maintain the choke zone rpm with the accelerator while driving, then you can warm up the car while driving too. Another easy way to prevent it is to increase the fuel flow, but that would bring down the FE due to richer fuel mixture being burnt always. Most mechanics would do the second option if you complain about the 'gasping'.
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Old 14th January 2014, 00:57   #329
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

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Another easy way to prevent it is to increase the fuel flow, but that would bring down the FE due to richer fuel mixture being burnt always. Most mechanics would do the second option if you complain about the 'gasping'.
Exactly! My mechanic has made it so rich that I can literally smell it in the air. In bangalore winter conditions, my '99 zen starts at the first hint, without any choke needed. I believe this is bleeding the FE. Please correct me if I am wrong. By the time I have completed 10 kms run, the idling is so high you cannot make out that it is a ZEN (Zero engine noise). My neighbour's even older ZEN is silently parked even at mid-night, I dare not do that.

Ofcourse, I could have got the mixture adjusted in the normal service too, but am I missing anything? (in any case the carb needed the servicing, has not been touched for every long, some pipes are even missing)
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:00   #330
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Default Re: Zen and the art of maintaining it

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Exactly! My mechanic has made it so rich that I can literally smell it in the air. In bangalore winter conditions, my '99 zen starts at the first hint, without any choke needed. I believe this is bleeding the FE. Please correct me if I am wrong. By the time I have completed 10 kms run, the idling is so high you cannot make out that it is a ZEN (Zero engine noise). My neighbour's even older ZEN is silently parked even at mid-night, I dare not do that.

Ofcourse, I could have got the mixture adjusted in the normal service too, but am I missing anything? (in any case the carb needed the servicing, has not been touched for every long, some pipes are even missing)
Carb overhaul would be the best way forward. There is no point in doing carb cleaning without re-adjusting to lean mixture as a rich mixture is always going to result in incomplete combustion and lead to carbon deposits in the carburettor which would make the whole effort short lived.

BTW, since the winter is almost over, you can probably wait a couple more weeks before tuning to lean mixture so that you don't have to excessively load your starting motor during a cold start.

Another important factor when it comes to engine noise is the mileage on the odo. An older car need not have clocked more distance and would be newer as far as the engine condition is concerned.

P.S: I've always had the leanest mixture and the result was replacement of the starting motor every 5-6 years.

Last edited by zenren : 14th January 2014 at 09:02.
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