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Old 23rd October 2009, 01:31   #1
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Default A few questions about Fuel!

I had a few doubts regarding fuel. Would love to have them answered in points. A search didn't yield satisfactory results. Here goes
1. Why do people say that one MuST fill fuel at the same pump? Does changing brands (considering that they are of the same good quality) make a difference? Does an engine get 'used' to a particular brew?
Does changing pumps do harm to the car?
WHAT is this theory of one pump, one fuel? Can anyone explain?

2. When does one start using fuel additives? I mean, at what point in the cars life? Are they necessary? What if they're used from day 1? Are they detrimental to the engine?

3. Does brim to brim filling of fuel mean that one has to top up the tank to it's entirety? (to the absolute top of the tank till its about to overflow!)


More questions. But will wait till I get answers to the ones posted.
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Old 23rd October 2009, 04:30   #2
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These are not answers to your question- rather telling why I do what you have asked

1. I have tried filling at quite a few pumps in the city and have identified from personal experience as well as hearsay that certain pumps are good. I have stuck to one, primarily because I have not had a bad fueling experience, and when I do refuel elsewhere (say, when travelling), I notice a marked difference in the engine's sound and behavior (revv, power delivery)

2. I have never believed in fuel additives. Have always considered them as a marketing gimmick of the oil companies to make better margins. More so because my car's manufacturer and several others have recommended against additives (mine's a Getz CRDi)

3. That's how I fill- almost till it overflows, I can actually see the fuel in the neck of the fuel tank!

I will be following this thread, as I would like to know if there is any logic in what I'm doing- or if am doing something wrong
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Old 23rd October 2009, 05:19   #3
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with Phoenix on his 1st n 3rd views. However, with regards to Fuel additives, I observe a considerable improvement in the engine rev and also feel the ride to be smoother than before with the usage of Fuel additives.

My ride is a 2001 Ford Ikon petrol and the A.S.S (Lathangi) did recommend me of an addtive when complained about the engine smoothness.

-Pr
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Old 23rd October 2009, 06:45   #4
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Quote:
frankmehta : 1. Why do people say that one MuST fill fuel at the same pump?
* Consistency.
* When you have been using a specific pump, you have satisfied over time, the quantity & quality of the product you are getting.
* You have also been able to observe your vehicles behaviour with the fuel at that pump
* If you consider the quality & quantity of the fuel to be steady each time you have filled up, then any changes in behaviour (FE, power delivery) will then be more easily noticed and will possibly be due to some change in the vehicle. It will be easier to notice to such changes, & take appropriate action.
* If the above does happen, you will also try fuel at another trusted pump to make sure that the engine / vehicle needs a check.

Quote:
frankmehta : Does changing brands (considering that they are of the same good quality) make a difference? Does an engine get 'used' to a particular brew?
Changing brands does not make a difference, and engine does not get used to a particular brew. If I were to get pure, unadultrated fuel at any brand of pump, I will go to any company's bunk.

But from what I understand, Most bunks adultrate. Hence the engine's behaviour is not the same for fuel at different bunks.

It is we who get used to this response of the engine, and stick to the bunk/s who's fuel gives the engine response we want.

Also, companies are know to have some customised additives/detergents and some people may prefer to use fuel from a specific company.

Eg : Chevron has detergents added to it's fuel.
Indian Oil's diesel feels different than diesel from BP. I prefer IOL's diesel, so I go there. Not that it makes a difference to the vehicle or engine.

Quote:
frankmehta : Does changing pumps do harm to the car?
No. Unless you get badly /highly adultrated fuel which can cause a bad engine response during using that fuel.

Quote:
frankmehta : WHAT is this theory of one pump, one fuel? Can anyone explain?
What's the context, and is it different from #1 above ?

Quote:
frankmehta : 2. When does one start using fuel additives? I mean, at what point in the cars life? Are they necessary? What if they're used from day 1? Are they detrimental to the engine?
* Can be used at any time.
* Not necessary
* Not detrimental
* Additional benefits, like keeping injectors clean. Helps, but will not add to the fuel's or the engines abilities.

Quote:
frankmehta : 3. Does brim to brim filling of fuel mean that one has to top up the tank to it's entirety? (to the absolute top of the tank till its about to overflow!)
Best way to ensure you are filling up to same level each time. This is required if you are the one who measures FE. Auto-cut off works on sensors, and can be a little different each time, depending on air inside the tank. There is an element of inconsistency in the auto-cut off method.

In cars, FE is measured by top-up to top-up. (in bikes, it is reserve to reserve most times). When you do a top-up, you know visually till what level you have filled the tank. Next time you fill, you can fill up to the same level. So this way your point-of-reference to measure the amount of fuel filled is consistent. Consequently, your FE measurements will also be consistent.
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Old 23rd October 2009, 08:35   #5
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@frakmehta,
I agree with most points discussed here.The most important thing is to find a fuel bunk selling non spurious fuel.But diesel or petrol from various manufacturer's can vary because of the processes used.These are subjected to a quality test
eg:For Diesel:
1)Parameter National standard Date of effect Test Method
Biodiesel 1 5.0% volume by volume (max) 1-Mar-09 EN 14078
Sulfur 500 ppm (max) 31-Dec-02 ASTM D5453
50 ppm (max) 1-Jan-06
10ppm (max) 1-Jan-09
Cetane Index 46 (min) index 1-Jan-02 ASTM D4737
Derived Cetane Number (of diesel containing biodiesel) 51.0 (min) 21-Feb-09 ASTM D6890
Density 820 (min) to 860 (max) kg/m3 1-Jan-02 ASTM D1298
820 (min) to 850 (max) kg/m3 1-Jan-06
Distillation T95 370C (max) 1-Jan-02 ASTM D86
360C (max) 1-Jan-06
Polyaromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) 11% m/m (max) 1-Jan-06 IP391
Ash 100 ppm (max) 1-Jan-02 ASTM D482
Viscosity 2.0 to 4.5 cSt @ 40C 1-Jan-02 ASTM D445
Carbon Residue (10% distillation residue) 0.2 mass % max 16-Oct-02 ASTM D4530
Water and sediment 0.05 vol % max 16-Oct-02 ASTM D2709
Water (all diesel containing biodiesel) 200 mg/kg (max) 21-Feb-09 ASTM 6304
Conductivity @ ambient temp 50 pS/m (Min) @ambient temp (all diesel held by a terminal or refinery for sale or distribution) 16-Oct-02 ASTM D2624
Oxidation Stability 25 mg/L max 16-Oct-02 ASTM D2274
Colour 2 max 16-Oct-02 ASTM D1500
Copper Corrosion (3 hrs @ 50C) Class 1 max 16-Oct-02 ASTM D130
Flash point 61.5C min 16-Oct-02 ASTM D93
Filter blocking tendency 2.0 max 16-Oct-02 IP 387
Lubricity 0.460 mm (max) (all diesel containing less than 500ppm sulfur) 16-Oct-02 IP 450

As you can see that traces of other substances can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.hence i would say that for a particular engine a particular brand of diesel might suit better.I can see a difference in how my Safari engine performs with IOC diesel and Shell.Also parameters like lubricity,filter blocking characteristic,water content,Cetane value etc can impact the performance of the engine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
I had a few doubts regarding fuel. Would love to have them answered in points. A search didn't yield satisfactory results. Here goes
1. Why do people say that one MuST fill fuel at the same pump? Does changing brands (considering that they are of the same good quality) make a difference? Does an engine get 'used' to a particular brew?
Does changing pumps do harm to the car?
WHAT is this theory of one pump, one fuel? Can anyone explain?

2. When does one start using fuel additives? I mean, at what point in the cars life? Are they necessary? What if they're used from day 1? Are they detrimental to the engine?

3. Does brim to brim filling of fuel mean that one has to top up the tank to it's entirety? (to the absolute top of the tank till its about to overflow!)


More questions. But will wait till I get answers to the ones posted.

Last edited by freewheelburnin : 23rd October 2009 at 08:41.
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Old 23rd October 2009, 10:53   #6
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@FWB, thanks for these details.
Quote:
freewheelburnin : As you can see that traces of other substances can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.hence i would say that for a particular engine a particular brand of diesel might suit better.I can see a difference in how my Safari engine performs with IOC diesel and Shell.
Add to this that no two vehicles are alike. They are handled differently, and will be in a different state. Two vehicles using the same fuel from the same pump will behave differently. With a single vehicle, using fuel from different bunks of the same company can still show different behaviour if the two bunks are handling their fuel differently. Eg: Fuel from a COCO bunk will be different from fuel from some other bunk of the same company.

Take this to the next level : same vehicle, different companies : the behaviour will be more different. And even more so when you bring into the picture two differnt vehicles with fuel from two different bunks.
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Old 23rd October 2009, 12:12   #7
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On contraray of what is been discussed, I do have some views.

I bought Swift DDiS in Aug 2009. Initially, I filled Shell Diesel. The vehicle was very rough and not so responsive. Also, with Shell Diesel some vehicles develop smoke in exhaust. After using up Shell, and as suggested by M.A.S.S; i started using IOC Normal Diesel. The engine became lot more smooth and more responsive. I am happy with IOC Normal Diesel.
I have used System D. The engine will be much more refined and response improves till the additive is present. As per M.A.S.S, additives develops corrosion in long run. So, stopped using System D. Only IOC Normal Diesel.
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Old 23rd October 2009, 12:26   #8
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In fact many diesels are much better off with fuel without additives. I understand that Pete'd cars have a smoke problem with premium fuels.
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Old 23rd October 2009, 12:30   #9
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I have the same experience as blackstallion. I drive an Elantra and i am not happy with Shell Diesel. The vehicle does not run smooth and the engine noise is more. I have observed that with IOC extra mile super diesel the engine sound is low and the car is a lot responsive. This was case with my friend who owns an Accent Diesel so I stick with XtraMile only though it is a about 2-3 rs more than the normal diesel.
Also Shell does not have Super Diesel.
Any idea which is a good diesel additive? I have heard Gulf products are extremely good.
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Old 23rd October 2009, 12:42   #10
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@Blackstallion / VMC / SGIITK : as mentioned in the above posts, you need to figure out which brand of fuel & which additive suits your vehicle best, and use that combination.
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