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Old 12th November 2009, 07:48   #16
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I thought Turbo (any for that matter of fact; Fixed/VGT) are high precision equipments and should be disassembled only while being scrapped. Even for Intercooler cleaning, all it needs is the pressure jet of water to dislodge the dirt from the fin and nothing major.

Please strictly refuse any such fancy items that the SA says is must. Ask them to take a long hike.
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Old 12th November 2009, 11:43   #17
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Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
I thought Turbo (any for that matter of fact; Fixed/VGT) are high precision equipments and should be disassembled only while being scrapped. Even for Intercooler cleaning, all it needs is the pressure jet of water to dislodge the dirt from the fin and nothing major.

Please strictly refuse any such fancy items that the SA says is must. Ask them to take a long hike.
+1 to that. Turbochargers are not made of any serviceable parts and should not be disassembled at all.
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Old 12th November 2009, 13:10   #18
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Gentlemen, how many of us are aware of the number of turbo failures on Swifts? Maybe it is a precautionary measure to check if the seals, blades of the turbo etc are fine because there have been countless cases of premature turbo failures (mainly owing to our driving styles and not idling the car). Maybe MUL doesn't want this bit of news to get out in the public? Damage control by telling customers to do it as a recommended checkup through dealers?

Those who mentioned about IC cleaning ought to know that the intercooler is taken off and then cleaned too to remove the excess oil that seeps inside the IC.
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Old 12th November 2009, 15:00   #19
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Originally Posted by motophsyco View Post
Gentlemen, how many of us are aware of the number of turbo failures on Swifts? Maybe it is a precautionary measure to check if the seals, blades of the turbo etc are fine because there have been countless cases of premature turbo failures (mainly owing to our driving styles and not idling the car). Maybe MUL doesn't want this bit of news to get out in the public? Damage control by telling customers to do it as a recommended checkup through dealers?
@ motopsycho: If MSIL had an issue with frequent and premature turbo failures, rest assured, we on this forum would have known. If premature failure is frequent, MSIL would have recalled and replaced free of cost, not charged the whopping amount the service centre asked for. So please don't fool yourself even for a moment by believing what you've written.
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Old 12th November 2009, 15:20   #20
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@ motopsycho: If MSIL had an issue with frequent and premature turbo failures, rest assured, we on this forum would have known. If premature failure is frequent, MSIL would have recalled and replaced free of cost, not charged the whopping amount the service centre asked for. So please don't fool yourself even for a moment by believing what you've written.
+1 to that.

@ motophsyco: Having worked in the CV segment I have seen Turbo's working without failure upto 3 Lakh Kms. If a turbo can last the abuse meted out by our truckers, there is no reason why one would need to get a turbo serviced at 30k. And if turbo's were failing prematurely in MUL DDiS engines, we in TBHP would have certainly known especially it being a very high priced part.
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Old 12th November 2009, 16:34   #21
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@ motopsycho: If MSIL had an issue with frequent and premature turbo failures, rest assured, we on this forum would have known. If premature failure is frequent, MSIL would have recalled and replaced free of cost, not charged the whopping amount the service centre asked for. So please don't fool yourself even for a moment by believing what you've written.
Firstly, the premature turbo failures are not because of faulty turbos but because of negligent driving on our part. Like not idling the car at start or while turning off? Secondly, almost everyone drives below the boost range throughout. Any idea how bad for the turbo that is? One must do a survey of how many owners know how to maintain a turbo diesel car, to really understand the point. Just get enough revs to slightly spool the turbo, shift and fall out of boost range immediately.

Just look around this very forum, the number of people who have complained about turbo issues. Even after accepting a manufacturing defect on a turbo (one off case), a certain member has been made to run around to get the replacement, this is just one such case reported on the net. Do look around your neighborhood service centres to get the real picture. If it is not on TBHP, doesn't mean it doesn't exist out there.

Btw, those who are of the picture that, whatever odd 2000 (whooping?) bucks the showroom guys are asking is for "rebuilding" or "disassembling" and putting back a turbo must be crazy, it costs a lot more to do that FYI. That must be just the labour cost just to take out the bumper, IC and to clean it, just to have a look at the condition of the turbo to see if it has play etc and put back everything. Owning a swift D myself, I would actually not mind them doing that (preventive check up that is). Far safer to claim a busted turbo under warranty than when it runs out? Also isn't there a mention of overfilling of oil causing some turbo issues too on one of the threads?

Obviously, the dealer here might be running a scam too. But before calling it a bluff without knowing all the details, I would like to do my asking around please. Feel free to do the opposite.

PS: Most people don't even realize anything is wrong with the turbo until too late. Maybe that is why this preventive maintainance?
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Old 12th November 2009, 18:55   #22
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Originally Posted by motophsyco View Post
Firstly, the premature turbo failures are not because of faulty turbos but because of negligent driving on our part. Like not idling the car at start or while turning off? Secondly, almost everyone drives below the boost range throughout. Any idea how bad for the turbo that is? One must do a survey of how many owners know how to maintain a turbo diesel car, to really understand the point. Just get enough revs to slightly spool the turbo, shift and fall out of boost range immediately.
Even negligent driving as you describe allows a turbo to outlast the engine life of a car in most cases. And driving a turbo car in the boost range continuously is an impossibility in traffic in any country, never mind India.
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Originally Posted by motophsyco View Post
Just look around this very forum, the number of people who have complained about turbo issues. Even after accepting a manufacturing defect on a turbo (one off case), a certain member has been made to run around to get the replacement, this is just one such case reported on the net. Do look around your neighborhood service centres to get the real picture.
Less than 1% of all turbodiesels have issues with the turbocharger, in fact more face problems with injectors and pumps. So do we rip out the injectors and pumps of every turbodiesel just to check, every 30k km?
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If it is not on TBHP, doesn't mean it doesn't exist out there.
LOL... Team-BHP knows about it well before it exists out there...
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Originally Posted by motophsyco View Post
Btw, those who are of the picture that, whatever odd 2000 (whooping?) bucks the showroom guys are asking is for "rebuilding" or "disassembling" and putting back a turbo must be crazy, it costs a lot more to do that FYI. That must be just the labour cost just to take out the bumper, IC and to clean it, just to have a look at the condition of the turbo to see if it has play etc and put back everything.
It costs a lot more to carry out a coronary artery bypass graft, so why don't you have a low-cost check evey year by carrying out an angiography?
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Owning a swift D myself, I would actually not mind them doing that (preventive check up that is). Far safer to claim a busted turbo under warranty than when it runs out? Also isn't there a mention of overfilling of oil causing some turbo issues too on one of the threads?
Would you be sure that the service centre will enter their "cleaning" of the turbo into the manufacturer's central database, when no such activity is recommended by the manufacturer? Turbos are sealed units, and opening them would void warranty. Not one manufacturer recommends turbo cleaning in either the owner's or the garage manual, so going by the service centre's recommendation is sheer stupidity.
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Obviously, the dealer here might be running a scam too. But before calling it a bluff without knowing all the details, I would like to do my asking around please.
You are not asking the other members here - you're telling them that opening up the turbo is good. Your choice.
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Feel free to do the opposite.
Experts on this forum can only recommend - you may feel free not to listen to such recommendations.
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PS: Most people don't even realize anything is wrong with the turbo until too late. Maybe that is why this preventive maintainance?
Preventive maintenance schedules are the onus of the manufacturer, and not the service centre. When the manufacturer does not recommend a particular action, but a service station insists it has to be done, the choice is crystal clear - listen to the manufacturer. I haven't yet come across any automobile or component manufacturer who recommends what has been proposed to the thread originator, so he has been advised likewise by multiple members on Team-BHP. However, your (fallacious)argument has been noted, and on behalf of others I would just say 3 words: It's your car.
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Old 12th November 2009, 19:35   #23
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http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...on-thread.html (Swift DDIS Turbo issues: Report & Resolution thread)

Whatever problems are there in the turbo, you should probably find answers here
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Old 12th November 2009, 20:43   #24
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....
However, please do check with Maruti. Ask Maruti to confirm whether such service is required.
.....
Once again, I suggest that the OP write to Maruti and ask them whether such a 'service' is required. This should address the very real concern raised by Motopsycho.

Right now the debate is on two hypothesis and this can be best resolved by obtaining a clarification from Maruti.

Cheers,
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Old 12th November 2009, 21:06   #25
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Mr Traveller, I suggest you kindly read through the thread posted by greenhorn and a few other swift turbo related discussions on other threads as well before you go shooting off your mouth about injectors, fuel pump etc, arteries, bypass, foot and mouth disease etc.. IIRC more than 3 members have got the intercooler cleaned during their regular service intervals as they had a drop in performance levels and suspected something was wrong with the turbo, only to find the IC to be clogged with excess of oil. We have plenty more members complaining about boost kicking in later (than normal) as well, have you bothered to read those threads and try to find us all a solution as to why? Or are you being one of them, armchair critics just for the sake of it, while at it self proclaiming yourself as an "expert"?

As for the "opening" of the turbo goes, I don't know why you are mistaking a regular check up of taking a peek into the turbo (without dismantling it) to see its condition as "opening" it up and misguiding others and making a huge cry over it. Have you been to any of the centres when a so called inspection of these sorts was happening? I bet not. Also, I would suggest others not to take the exact words of most SA's too seriously. Those guys don't know what they are talking about most times, I had a friend who's swift had a massive leak of boost owing to a cut hose. Not one person could understand what boost leak meant, in one of the biggest and most famous dealerships in Karnataka. Even after a TD, those nincompoops couldn't make out where the leak was coming from.

We personally waited until the bumper was taken off, to show them the source of the boost leak. Yes, that car had run close to 35k kms and had massive collection of oil in the IC too. When we asked them to clean the intercooler (also done by Rippergeo and Jaggu too IIRC?) they said the same thing, turbo cleaning has to be done (which in our lingo translates to intercooler cleaning). All they did is, cleaned the IC, we personally checked the turbo for any leaky seals, play on the blades etc and the IC was fitted back without "opening" the turbo as you call it and yes do look around Jaggu's ownership thread to see how much they charged him for the IC cleaning job. We were given the delivery of the car with the customary "Sir, your turbo cleaning has been done" while none of that sort actually happened as we were there right throughout. Needlessly to say, the car got back its oompphh after the cleaning up of the IC.

Quote:
LOL... Team-BHP knows about it well before it exists out there...
We respect the wealth of info on TBHP, but statements like that my friend is a bubble we must NOT live in.

I find it amusing, how you are taking it for granted that the recommended job by the dealer will not be added to the centralized registry? I do hope its just an assumption you are making or do you have facts to collaborate your assumption? IIRC, the words IC cleaning was clearly mentioned in the bill my friend got which I assume is logged into the registry as well but NOT recommended by the manufacturer?

Personally, I have seen atleast 10 occasions of turbo failures on swifts (outside of this forum). How do you explain that? I can show you friends in different cities having seen similar experiences too. Ripper himself on TBHP has reported his turbo failure and subsequently, mentioned the FACT that MUL itself had issued a notice to all the dealers regarding quantity of engine oil to be filled. That the engine was extremely sensitive to an addition of 200ml excess oil that lead to a lot of issues, one of them being turbo failures too. Kindly do take time, to read upon those threads, my friend.

As for my swift is concerned, its nearing the 40k mark and the service is due. I will be getting my IC cleaned too and I shall just check the turbo without "opening" it just to be on the safer side.

PS: I am one of those, who don't entirely rely on what the dealers/manufacturers say is the best way to take good care of your car. I have the habit of changing the engine oil every 5k kms even though the manufacturers recommend a change every 10k? We call ourselves auto-enthusiasts, what would be the difference between us and a common man if we were to "blindly" follow what was told to us by the dealers/manufacturers?
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Old 12th November 2009, 22:41   #26
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Mr Traveller, I suggest...
Aah, one wishes your grasp of automotive technical matters were as good as your writing skills. Incidentally, you spelt "psycho" wrong in your handle...

I shall refrain from replying to you further on this thread due to the threat of moderator action and infractions, and any personally offensive posts from you shall be reported!

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 12th November 2009 at 22:48.
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Old 12th November 2009, 23:04   #27
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Yesterday my swift DDIS came back from a 25k kms servicing from vitesse andheri (w).I was informed by the service advisor that they will do turbo charger cleaning during the cars 30k kms service..
Hey BHP, do you remember the service advisors name? You could speak to the works manager I think ihe is still there Desmond.
I have pretty good relation and contacts in all of vittese. I will find out about this. Hope fully I will remember.
do you have an extended warranty.

I was adviced to do a clean up of the cooling coil in a baleno with a 4 year warranty at 20k kms. This was adviced to remove the dust and grime that collects on cooling coils which leads to choke up and also can lead to corrosion and then leakage of refrigerant.
I did it.
Dealers do cheat and I have had bad experiences with chevy dealer Bharati and Udith motors. But I would trust Vittesse andheri or prabhadevi with my maruti if I have one
Regards
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Old 13th November 2009, 00:30   #28
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Aah, one wishes your grasp of automotive technical matters were as good as your writing skills. Incidentally, you spelt "psycho" wrong in your handle...
FYI, that was "intentional", is this some English class we are attending here and you the lecturer ? I would suggest you begin with the reading of the swift threads to get to the bottom of the issue, instead of trying to compare my writing skills to my technical knowledge and trying to take the discussion off course.

FYI, the KKK KP35 TC is identical to the one on the Fiesta and the same as the all the 1.3MJD engines running FGT. These turbos were mainly designed for European use, with no care being taken about the extremely high humid/hot conditions in India. Which is why Fiat, Ford & Tata played it safe with a liner boost curve on all their cars while Maruti went ahead and gave it a more aggressive map. The turbo is only marginally smaller than the KKK BV39 turbo used in a Skoda 1.9Tdi, which is also mapped pretty conservatively keeping in mind the Indian climate, the adulterated fuel we get here, our know how (rather lack of it) of how to maintain these turbos. All these factors add to the issues. I do suggest a thorough read up for you on the link posted by greenhorn to understand the gravity of the whole situation.

@ Original Poster: Do make it a point to ask them clearly what is involved in this "cleaning" the turbo bit. Mostly, what they intend to say is "turbo INTERCOOLER" cleaning. No dealership/manufacturer in their sane minds, would rip apart a turbo, clean it, put it back and just charge you just 2 grand for it. A turbo overhaul ("opening" as our friend SS Traveller calls it) will cost you a lot more than that. If it indeed is the IC cleaning, I would suggest you get it done. For further info, contact Jaggu, he should be able to help you out with the exact cost for it etc.
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Old 13th November 2009, 01:02   #29
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Originally Posted by motophsyco View Post
Personally, I have seen atleast 10 occasions of turbo failures on swifts (outside of this forum). How do you explain that?
I've also heard of quite a few turbo failures in swifts - this from a service advisor at a MASS in Goa.
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Old 13th November 2009, 03:42   #30
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My only doubt: How did oil get into the intercooler?

If oil is getting into the intercooler / turbo / air intake system in quantities large enough to block the intercooler - there is obviously some defect.

@ Motophsycho: Your contribution is welcome, however please ensure that your tone is appropriate and polite and never ever personally offensive.

I hope we hear from Maruti on this.

Cheers,
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