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Old 3rd December 2009, 14:43   #31
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If the car was idling it would take 10 mts plus for radiator fan to switch ON. So i guess what you have pointed out is normal.

Top up the tank when cold and check the coolant level after about 100 kms, if there is a substantial drop, take it to the garage.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 19:53   #32
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My response in bold...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rr_zen View Post
2. Checked for any boiling of coolant in the reservoir - No (I put my finger in to feel the temp of the coolant and it was cold.)
Even when the fan started up - was it cold then?
4. Checked the engine oil dipstick - Oil level is well within min max range. No anomalies noticed there either
Did the oil appear normal in colour?
5. Checked for any minor leaks in the radiator/hoses connecting it - No
Did you get under the car and check?

I started the engine when it was cold and tried to find the duration it took for the radiator fan to come on. It took almost 14 - 15 mins for the fan to come on. And it switched off in just about 20 secs. Is this normal ? I feel the fan should have come on well before this time and should not take 15 mins. I understand that the fan gets triggered by the rise in engine temperature and is related to that, however my concern is if the fan is coming on at say X+Y degrees instead of X degrees.
What do you guys think ?
15 minutes from a cold startup is fine. In any case, you don't have an overheating problem, just that you are losing coolant. The fan is obviously doing its job, cutting in and out at the right temperature - therefore you don't have an overheating issue. The coolant is being lost from somewhere - whether dripping out from a point that cannot be detected, or seeping into the engine through a gasket leak. THAT we have to find. As Jaggu suggested, taking the car to a mechanic would be your best bet.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 21:43   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
My response in bold...

Even when the fan started up - was it cold then? - Yes it was cold even after the fan started.
Did the oil appear normal in colour? The oil colour appeared normal

Did you get under the car and check?

Yes. I did partly get under the car, not fully though.

As Jaggu suggested, taking the car to a mechanic would be your best bet.
I am planning to see how things are this week and then take it to MASS for a check up.

I have one question though - Despite most checks turning negative in my case, what are the chances of a blown head gasket ?

Fearing the worst, if that is the case, then what is the impact on the engine ? I would obviously change it but then would like to know if this incident would leave a permanent scar (damage) on the engine.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 21:57   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
I guess the operating temperature of a car engine is always the same, irrespective of the outside climate. For e.g. if a santro were to be run in Chennai under a hot noon sun, and a santro were to be run in J & K on a chilly night, when the engines are running their operating temperatures would be approximately the same.

Without a thermostat either the engine will never reach its operating temperature resulting in a loss of fuel consumption or will overheat resulting in a loss of the engine (worst case). If a part is faulty, it should be replaced, not removed.
well you are right about the operating temperature it will be same irrespective of the outside climate.Now going accorfding to your example,when we use the santro in chennai the weather there is hot and engine will heat up faster as compared to J&K.Simple logic, metal is a good conducter of heat so it will reach operating temperature faster in chennai.

How can you say without a thermostat it will never reach operating temperature?
See the thermostat controls the flow of coolant into the engine.But coolant also gets hot and when it reaches a certain temperature then the fan starts working automatically.and then once the temperature has decreased the fan will stop again.This is a continues cycle until the engine is shut down.

Now thre question is of over heating.


As stated by me above above,the thermostat only controls the coolant flow and promoted quick heating.Now if there is continous coolant flow and the cycle of the fan is working properly how will it cause overheating?Can you explain this?The fan is there to reduce the temperature once it has reached a certain temperature so it cannot in any possibility cause overheating.

Some place the car tend to overheat because of the hot climate and the defective thermostat.It is however not adviceable to remove the thermostat in place like J&K where wuick heating is required as the climate is extremely cold.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Even in BLR winter months a car without thermostat is not fun to ride at nights, so i personally dont prefer to remove it. If its faulty replace it.
Jaggu,I would like to ask you one question how can you make out if a car has a thermostat or not?Because there are many cars with and without it and you cannot make out until you have opened the place where it is located. Please share with us how you can make that out.
Sir if there is no use for it why spend the money and replace it ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhogalrajnish View Post
Never ever remove the thermostate valve from any vehicle as the vehicle will run cold and take a long time to heat up you will burn a lot of extra fuel and reduce the engine life, Remember the add "Most of the engine damage happens when the engine is cold"

Irafabulla get the Valve changed it will cost you about Rs 400 or lower. make sure you get the same temp valve as you have on the engine right now. there are two temp valves on maruti cars 82 degree and 88 degree, Versa will provably have the same as esteem 82 Degree.
I beg to differ with you.Most engine damages happen because of heating and not cold engine.Ironically, the hotter an engine runs the more efficient it becomes. But there's a limit because aluminum pistons and heads can only get so hot before they start to soften and melt.The same goes for cast iron.Overheating can also cause preignition. Hot spots develop inside the combustion chamber that become a source of ignition for the fuel. The erratic combustion can cause detonation as well as engine run-on in older vehicles with carburetors. Hot spots can also be very damaging and burn holes right through the top of pistons.
Heat makes aluminum swell almost three times faster than cast iron. The resulting stress can distort the head and make it swell in areas that are hottest like those between exhaust valves in adjoining cylinders, and areas that have restricted coolant flow like the narrow area that separates the cylinders. The typical aluminum head swells most in the middle, which can crush the head gasket if the head gets hot enough. This will cause a loss of torque in the gasket allowing coolant and combustion leaks to occur when the head cools.Overheating is also a common cause of OHC cam seizure and breakage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rr_zen View Post
Alright. I made some detailed checks today and here is what I found:

1. Opened the coolant reservoir to check for any oil slick/mix - No
2. Checked for any boiling of coolant in the reservoir - No (I put my finger in to feel
the temp of the coolant and it was cold.)
3. Opened engine oil cap and checked for any increase in quantity of oil and any
traces of coolant - No
4. Checked the engine oil dipstick - Oil level is well within min max range. No
anomalies noticed there either
5. Checked for any minor leaks in the radiator/hoses connecting it - No



Now, one thing that I observed:

I started the engine when it was cold and tried to find the duration it took for the radiator fan to come on. It took almost 14 - 15 mins for the fan to come on. And it switched off in just about 20 secs. Is this normal ? I feel the fan should have come on well before this time and should not take 15 mins. I understand that the fan gets triggered by the rise in engine temperature and is related to that, however my concern is if the fan is coming on at say X+Y degrees instead of X degrees.

What do you guys think ?
Oil and coolant mixture only happens when the head gasket is blown.Until then they will not mix.
Now as far as the fan comming on later and the duration for which it came on depends on how much increase in temperature there has been.Sometimes you may see it may come on within 10mins for a duration of 2-3 mins.It depends on the temperature of the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rr_zen View Post
I am planning to see how things are this week and then take it to MASS for a check up.

I have one question though - Despite most checks turning negative in my case, what are the chances of a blown head gasket ?
Well i don't think its the head gasket till now.If it was then you would get traces of oil or coolant in the radiator or the engine respectively.I would still say get thethermostat removed and all your problems will be solved.

Last edited by IndrojitSircar : 3rd December 2009 at 22:01.
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Old 4th December 2009, 00:11   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
...how can you make out if a car has a thermostat or not?
A simple test: take the car to the hills, and while coming downhill in gear, if your temp gauge gradually moves towards "C", you've got a stuck-open thermostat valve, or somebody removed it. No need to open up anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
I would still say get thethermostat removed and all your problems will be solved.
I beg to disagree. rr_zen is losing coolant, not having an overheating problem. Removing the thermostat cannot solve his problem.
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Old 4th December 2009, 00:16   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
A simple test: take the car to the hills, and while coming downhill in gear, if your temp gauge gradually moves towards "C", you've got a stuck-open thermostat valve, or somebody removed it. No need to open up anything.
kindly explain this phenomina.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
I beg to disagree. rr_zen is losing coolant, not having an overheating problem. Removing the thermostat cannot solve his problem.
The coolant is probably comming out of the reserve tank breather hole due to which it might be missed out by the person.
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Old 4th December 2009, 00:28   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
kindly explain this phenomina.
That's no phenomenon. It's simple physics. Let the coolant circulate into the radiator while the engine is not generating heat, and it will cool down below optimum operating temp. The thermostat prevents just that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
The coolant is probably comming out of the reserve tank breather hole due to which it might be missed out by the person.
There has been no coolant overflow marks that rr_zen could detect, despite his best effort. Maybe he's missing something, maybe not. Getting a competent mechanic to check would be his best bet, not removing the thermostat valve.
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Old 4th December 2009, 00:36   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
That's no phenomenon. It's simple physics. Let the coolant circulate into the radiator while the engine is not generating heat, and it will cool down below optimum operating temp. The thermostat prevents just that.
If that happens then the car will need to be at somepoint driven uphill or on a flat road in which the temp will get back to normal.But on the other hand the coolant also gets hot and starts cooling the engine fully only when the fan starts and that happens only at a certain temp so it would take some time cool down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
There has been no coolant overflow marks that rr_zen could detect, despite his best effort. Maybe he's missing something, maybe not. Getting a competent mechanic to check would be his best bet, not removing the thermostat valve.
The suggestion for removing the thermostat was for Irfanulla the thread starter and not in particularly rr_zen.Please refer to the posts on page1 of this thread.


@rr_zen -Please upload a pic of the enigne bay of the car and see that the reserve tank comes in the pic.Also please do this once the car is hot and also post a pic of the temp gauge showing the heat.
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Old 4th December 2009, 09:46   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post

@rr_zen -Please upload a pic of the enigne bay of the car and see that the reserve tank comes in the pic.Also please do this once the car is hot and also post a pic of the temp gauge showing the heat.
Yeah. Will do that. Thanks for all the inputs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
There has been no coolant overflow marks that rr_zen could detect, despite his best effort. Maybe he's missing something, maybe not. Getting a competent mechanic to check would be his best bet, not removing the thermostat valve.
I suppose a leak from the reserve tank breather hole cannot go unnoticed. To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen this in my car.
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Old 6th December 2009, 00:02   #40
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Most cars have a cork at the bottom of the radiator that can be used to drain the liquid when necessary.If this cork is loose or broken there is a leak when the vehicle is turned off.this happens as there is no flow of coolant and slowly the coolant drips down.Try checking this cork at the bottom of the radiator.Had a similar problem with an esteem.happened as a stone hit the cork and left a crack.If you spot the cork.you can unscrew it and get a new one and fix it yourself.Careful bout hot coolant flowing out.
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Old 6th December 2009, 11:03   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
....

Now thre question is of over heating.


As stated by me above above,the thermostat only controls the coolant flow and promoted quick heating.Now if there is continous coolant flow and the cycle of the fan is working properly how will it cause overheating?Can you explain this?The fan is there to reduce the temperature once it has reached a certain temperature so it cannot in any possibility cause overheating.

Some place the car tend to overheat because of the hot climate and the defective thermostat.It is however not adviceable to remove the thermostat in place like J&K where wuick heating is required as the climate is extremely cold.
Check this link to understand the cooling system and some tests to see if parts of it are working fine:

Engine Overheating Causes & Cures

Instead of trying to remove parts from the car, which the manufacturer has put in there for some meaningful purpose, I suggest you take the vehicle to the authorised SS and ask them to thoroughly test the cooling system and identify and fix the problem.
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Old 6th December 2009, 16:45   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
Check this link to understand the cooling system and some tests to see if parts of it are working fine:

Engine Overheating Causes & Cures

Instead of trying to remove parts from the car, which the manufacturer has put in there for some meaningful purpose, I suggest you take the vehicle to the authorised SS and ask them to thoroughly test the cooling system and identify and fix the problem.

Sorry to say honeybee but the service center guys are a bunch of idiots.Sometimes they are spot on but sometimes they don't know whats happening.As far removing parts is concerned its up to the owner what he wishes to do neither the manufacturer or anyone can question him doing so.
Guys if you think you want to remove it or not its upto you.I just gave a solution to the problem if you are interested in sorting your car and think that what i have suggested is correct please go ahead.I assure you that it will give you results.Now its upto yopu to decide what you want to do,go to a bunch of idiots and spend tons and tons of money and change a whole lot of stuff or you want to take my advice.

Cheers
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Old 6th December 2009, 17:36   #43
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Originally Posted by bhogalrajnish View Post
Never ever remove the thermostate valve from any vehicle as the vehicle will run cold and take a long time to heat up you will burn a lot of extra fuel and reduce the engine life, Remember the add "Most of the engine damage happens when the engine is cold"
Don't agree with this. The Thermostatic Recirculation valve came to India probably with the Maruthi. Untill these recirculation valves came into existance, there were millions of vehicles in India and all over the world without this valve. Engines will not get damaged if the operating tempetature is maintained. The Thermostatic Recirculation Valve is there only to get the engine to operating temperature quickly in cold climates. This is again only relative as in freezing climate how long it is going to take the near frozen engine block to reach operating temperature if the engine starts?

In older vehicles the Radiator Fan and water pump is coupled to the engine and as soon as you start the vehicle the fan and the coolant circulation starts. I don't think these vehicles suffered engine damage due to not having the Thermostatic Recirculation valve. The time difference for reaching the operating temperature with or without the Thermostatic valve is not much. The Radiator fan is there to maintain proper operating temperature.

Think about the Air cooled vehicles ( such as Volks Wagons in) cold countries.

One thing to note that these Air cooled vehicles were a no-go in the middle east as the Ambient temperature easly reaches 50*C in the summer and these vehicle engines overheat.

I had a Thermostatic recirculationj valve stuck in my Maruthi 800 and blowing Steam and Coolant through the reservoir cap. It took about a month to find the culprit as this happens only once in a while. The Maruthi Service Engineer removed the faulty valve and adviced that it is not necessary in Bangalore climate.

Maybe or may be not!

Last edited by sudharma : 6th December 2009 at 17:38. Reason: Spelling correction
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Old 6th December 2009, 17:39   #44
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Don't agree with this. The Thermostatic Recirculation valve came to India probably with the Maruthi. Untill these recirculation valves came into existance, there were millions of vehicles in India and all over the world without this valve. Engines will not get damaged if the operating tempetature is maintained. The Thermostatic Recirculation Valve is there only to get the engine to operating temperature quickly in cold climates. This is again only relative as in freezing climate how long it is going to take the near frozen engine block to reach operating temperature if the engine starts?

In older vehicles the Radiator Fan and water pump is coupled to the engine and as soon as you start the vehicle the fan and the coolant circulation starts. I don't think these vehicles suffered engine damage due to not having the Thermostatic Recirculation valve. The time difference for reaching the operating temperature with or without the Thermostatic valve is not much. The Radiator fan is there to maintain proper operating temperature.

Think about the Air cooled vehicles ( such as Volks Wagons in) cold countries.

One thing to note that these Air cooled vehicles were a no-go in the middle east as the Ambient temperature easly reaches 50*C in the summer and these vehicle engines overheat.

I had a Thermostatic recirculationj valve stuck in my Maruthi 800 and blowing Steam and Coolant through the reservoir cap. It took about a month to find the culprit as this happens only once in a while. The Maruthi Service Engineer removed the faulty valve and adviced that it is not necessary in Bangalore climate.

Maybe or may be not!

Thank god atleast someone else also says the same thing.The thermostat is required in J&K and other states where there is a extreme cold climate.

Last edited by IndrojitSircar : 6th December 2009 at 17:47.
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Old 6th December 2009, 17:53   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
Sorry to say honeybee but the service center guys are a bunch of idiots.Sometimes they are spot on but sometimes they don't know whats happening.As far removing parts is concerned its up to the owner what he wishes to do neither the manufacturer or anyone can question him doing so.
Guys if you think you want to remove it or not its upto you.I just gave a solution to the problem if you are interested in sorting your car and think that what i have suggested is correct please go ahead.I assure you that it will give you results.Now its upto yopu to decide what you want to do,go to a bunch of idiots and spend tons and tons of money and change a whole lot of stuff or you want to take my advice.

Cheers
All the parts in a car are there for a purpose. None of them has been added just to add weight or charge extra money from the customers. Whether the service centre guys are idiots or not, we must keep in mind that the engineers and designers at the vehicle manufacturing companies are not boneheads. Any vehicle designing takes months/years before the concept is put into production. To think that the thermostat has been provided as a "removable" part is a dangerous assumption.

Sudharma, if you have gone through the link I posted, you will find that the thermostat helps the engine reach higher temperatures faster simply by not passing the coolant to the engine before the engine reaches a certain temperature. Also the posts clearly explain the disadvantages of running the car without a thermostat. Do you wish to say that the service centre engineer who advised you that a thermostat is not necessary knows better about the vehicle design than all the Maruti engineers who designed the car?

It's ridiculous to say that since air cooled engines did not have thermostat, the liquid cooled engines can do without it. Comparing apples with oranges, if you get my drift.

If your argument is that the thermostat is not necessary in a place like Bangalore, are you ready to run the risks of running the engine cold whenever you drive out of B'lore, say to Ooty, just because you didn't want to replace a cheap thermostat?

To remove a part from a car is not an owner's prerogative. It's simply a folly.
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