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Old 18th May 2010, 13:14   #31
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Cant this anti-freeze be added to the tank separate?
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Old 18th May 2010, 13:28   #32
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You have two options
1. Use Ethelene Glycol
2. Use Kerosene
Kerosene lowers the "gelling" point of diesel, but too much kerosene, the fuel pump can get ruined because kerosene is not a good lubricant(like diesel is).
However 5-10% is okay.
So if you are traveling to a very cold place, fill up from a shady pump. Thats anti-freeze diesel for you . But beware, some pumps use Naptha which will make problem worse
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Old 18th May 2010, 17:45   #33
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Its not much of a problem in modern diesel engines.

i have not seen a single tata truck failing to start in the morning. Indica is a bit problematic.

however I have seen people burning old piece of tyre under the sump, specially swaraj mazda.

As far as army is concerned, I talked to two guys yesterday from J& K light Infantry who were driving spankingly new SUMO 4x4.

They seems quite happy with it. Also they seemed very happy wth on the fly shifter.

They confessed Mahindra 550 does create lot of problems in hills.

in the cold they don't start in hot they get heated.
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Old 18th May 2010, 18:00   #34
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Don't know how I managed to miss this thread! Cross-posting some relevant stuff here from another thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
adc, how can the ice crystals form inside? Doesn't diesel & petrol sold everywhere have anti-freeze additives?

Those guys are crazy - lighting a bonfire under the fuel tank. My car would have definitely gone kaboom!
Smartcat the last day was super windy cold and all the Sumos and Boleros were having firewood placed beneath their fuel tank. Even the petrol pump had difficulty dispensing diesel as most of their diesel was waxy solid after overnight cold. I was more worried about the wires and sensors that come out from the fuel tank and adjacent to it, that is not there in the old gen taxis.

Diesel till December is supplied the normal diesel with winter diesel supply starting from the 1st week of Jan.

Ice crystals dont know, may be water was there in fuel??? This picture does show crystals scrapped off from the fuel tank pipe mesh filter.

Attachment 330210
AFAIK, anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) is what goes into the radiator, and diesel antigel (a copolymer that chemically binds to the wax in diesel and prevents it from solidifying) is what goes into diesel. Perhaps experts in organic chemistry or wizards dealing with hydrocarbons on this forum can enlighten us all some more.
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Old 18th May 2010, 18:50   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Don't know how I managed to miss this thread! Cross-posting some relevant stuff here from another thread.



AFAIK, anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) is what goes into the radiator, and diesel antigel (a copolymer that chemically binds to the wax in diesel and prevents it from solidifying) is what goes into diesel. Perhaps experts in organic chemistry or wizards dealing with hydrocarbons on this forum can enlighten us all some more.
Yes Sir ethylene glycol goes into the radiator. No idea about the chemical composition of Diesel Anti Freeze
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Old 18th May 2010, 21:24   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
I'm serious about the query.

Each and every one of us here has faced diesel cold start issues in sub-zero weather conditions, and technology has apparently not advanced to the extent in India where winter-grade diesel is available in those parts, to civilians at least.

@ Muzungu: What would you suggest?
Advice will vary depending on your level of paranoia! If you have sleepless nights, your problems are solved:- everytime you wake up, go start the vehicle!

Seriously, (Stage 1)
a)electricals in top order. You must be able to turn the engine over.
b) Kerosene and 2T are your friends
c) Insulation (blankets, newspaper. )

(Stage 2)
a) Ether
b) A large kettle and a Primus Kabson Stove
c) A small SMPS based battery charger (Transformer based ones will not work at low voltages)

(Stage 3)
a) Do not switch off the engine at night.

Regards
Sutripta

PS. With the XD engine, I'm paranoid. With the CRDEs/ mHawks I don't think you have to worry too much.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 18th May 2010, 22:11   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
But Common rail does not use glow plugs. thats the point of direct injection.
No, there are CRDe engines with Glow Plugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Surely the Thar is as prone to diesel gelling / freezing and resultant cold-start issues as any other diesel vehicle operating in those temperatures?
NO cold starting issues, as it will come with a glow plug. One strategy used to keep the fuel warm is to use special materials/alloys for Fuel tank and fuel lines (polyamides IIRC). This is one reason why Biodiesel vehicles use preheating in fuel tanks even before it reaches the fuel pump/injectors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
Well last September in sub-freezing temps at Tso Moriri, I had issues with the cold start. The engine took about 10-15 cranks before sputtering back to life. Diesel sold in Ladakh and other upper climes comes premixed with anti-freeze, thereby prohibiting its freezing so Doc, you don't need to worry too much. Also the ECU changes the timing based on the altitude, so that helps as well. But since the air is also cold, one needs continuous application of the heater to make the engine start.
Anirudha, there are two types of cylinder heads one with provision for Glow plug (export vehicles) and one with this provision plugged(domestic). Your storm comes from the later category. Although, you can get a head with provision for glow plug mounting. Needless to say, you will have to make changes in the engine wiring harness in order to house the glow plug wires, also cluster and ECU settings will need attention (I have done this all). The change in ECU settings is termed as Density and Fuel Temperature correction.

Spike

P.S. For export vehicles, a chemical/liquid is added in the fuel tank to prevent gelling, don't remember its name though.

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 18th May 2010 at 22:12.
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Old 18th May 2010, 22:22   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Anirudha, there are two types of cylinder heads one with provision for Glow plug (export vehicles) and one with this provision plugged(domestic). Your storm comes from the later category. Although, you can get a head with provision for glow plug mounting. Needless to say, you will have to make changes in the engine wiring harness in order to house the glow plug wires, also cluster and ECU settings will need attention (I have done this all). The change in ECU settings is termed as Density and Fuel Temperature correction.

Spike

P.S. For export vehicles, a chemical/liquid is added in the fuel tank to prevent gelling, don't remember its name though.
Sirji, since I'm not going to Ladakh every year or planning to take sanyas in the Himalayas, I'll skip the Glow Plugs part. But the addition of chemical /liquid in fuel tank is definitely interesting. What is the lifespan of this liquid?
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Old 18th May 2010, 22:24   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
No, there are CRDe engines with Glow Plugs.
...
How will this take care of waxing and choking of the filter?

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 18th May 2010, 22:43   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
Sirji, since I'm not going to Ladakh every year or planning to take sanyas in the Himalayas, I'll skip the Glow Plugs part. But the addition of chemical /liquid in fuel tank is definitely interesting. What is the lifespan of this liquid?
Brim to brim, you have to add this every time you top up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
How will this take care of waxing and choking of the filter?
The fuel tank and the fuel lines along with the chemical can prevent this only up to a certain extent. What finally matters is the quality of the fuel being used.

Spike
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Old 18th May 2010, 22:53   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
P.S. For export vehicles, a chemical/liquid is added in the fuel tank to prevent gelling, don't remember its name though.
Do you mean these things?
Do we get these things in India? If yes, where?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
If you have sleepless nights, your problems are solved:- everytime you wake up, go start the vehicle!

(Stage 3)
a) Do not switch off the engine at night.
Better still, keep the vehicle running all night, sleep in the car with all the windows up, and never wake up due to CO poisoning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
How will this take care of waxing and choking of the filter?
The chemical means by which it works is this:
Quote:
diesel antigel (a copolymer that chemically binds to the wax in diesel and prevents it from solidifying)
My organic chemistry is not that good! Which is why I queried about it. Essentially the copolymer works as a melting/solidifying temperature modifier for the wax that is present in diesel, esp. summer grade diesel. Winter grade diesels are supposed to be either lower in wax content, or already have this copolymer added.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 18th May 2010 at 23:00.
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Old 18th May 2010, 23:00   #42
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Yes, this is it. Although I am not sure of the trade name.

Spike
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Old 18th May 2010, 23:05   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Yes, this is it. Although I am not sure of the trade name.
Spike
So the export models go out with this antigel added into their diesel tanks already? Why?

And I'd be grateful if you could manage to find out any further details about where one can lay hands on this stuff in India. I wouldn't manage to source it from the US/UK/Europe if you tell me it's available only there!
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Old 18th May 2010, 23:24   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
No, there are CRDe engines with Glow Plugs.
Thank You!
I did found that out later and learned from this thread that smaller common rail DI does need plugs.


BTW came across this

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_inte..._Additives.pdf

Last edited by SirAlec : 18th May 2010 at 23:35.
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Old 19th May 2010, 11:11   #45
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Another problem which can happen is ice crystals in the sedimentar. Lets say it has seprated some water from fuel, but level is not that high that the warning light glows.
When temp goes below freezing, this water can freeze and expand, blocking the filters.
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