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Old 18th January 2010, 00:15   #16
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Originally Posted by shreeps View Post
What would the scenario be for petrol BS4 cars that would be filled with BS2 or BS3 petrol on highway trips? Does anybody know what will happen to the engine?
In the present scenario, BS III-compliant vehicles can still be supplied BS II fuel without any fear of damage to equipment. However, the same cannot be said for a BS IV car driving into BS II territory and using fuel there as the equipment will just not be able to handle inferior fuel which will have higher sulphur content.

It is not for nothing that the SIAM is crying itself hoarse in trying to convince the government to defer the introduction of BS-IV norms, by at least 3 - 6 months. They know only too well what kind of warranty claims they'll have to suffer through as BS-IV cars start fuelling up with poor quality fuels.

Read more: SIAM President seeks extension of BS-IV emission norms deadline beyond April 2010-WheelsUnplugged Automobile Industry News and http://www.livemint.com/2009/12/1722...ustry.html?d=1.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 18th January 2010 at 00:17.
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Old 18th January 2010, 01:07   #17
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Thanks SS-Traveller. So here's how I understand it:
If I get a new vehicle which is claimed as BS4 compliant (like Maruti SX4), I should be fine driving it in the 13 metros which are to get the BS4 fuel by April. However, going to remote villages wont be recommended since the fuel there may well be BS2 which may damage the engine.

One question though: What if I go to tier2 cities where I can get BS3 fuel? Will that harm the BS4 petrol engine?
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Old 18th January 2010, 09:42   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreeps View Post
Thanks SS-Traveller. So here's how I understand it:
If I get a new vehicle which is claimed as BS4 compliant (like Maruti SX4), I should be fine driving it in the 13 metros which are to get the BS4 fuel by April. However, going to remote villages wont be recommended since the fuel there may well be BS2 which may damage the engine.

One question though: What if I go to tier2 cities where I can get BS3 fuel? Will that harm the BS4 petrol engine?
If filling BS III petrol in a BS IV car can't harm it till March'10, I don't see how it can harm it from April onwards!

Last edited by Gansan : 18th January 2010 at 09:44.
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Old 18th January 2010, 10:46   #19
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Does this also mean the retail rates for the BS IV vehicles are gonna be a bit higher than the BS II and BS III vehicles?? Technically it has to be as the mechanism in which it runs is different.
If yes, then how is the government going to restrcit some user from Chennai from going and buying a car from a place like Cuddalore etc?
Why isnt this implemented uniformly throughtout the country? OMG I am already getting creepers on thinking of this.
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Old 18th January 2010, 10:57   #20
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Originally Posted by shreeps View Post
One question though: What if I go to tier2 cities where I can get BS3 fuel? Will that harm the BS4 petrol engine?
Ok, let's quickly look at what's different with BS-IV engines.

First off, an Euro-4 (BS-IV) engine is designed to run much hotter than an Euro-3 engine, mainly due to the ways in which it handles the exhaust gases. Therefore, the current engine oils we use, fail to adequately lubricate the internals of the engine, leading to faster wear and premature failure. So, we change over to Euro-4 compliant engine oils.

All well till now. But the Euro-4 compliant oils don't like to have things like sulphur, phosphorus and sulphated ash (which are either components of lower grade fuels or are combustion products of the contents of such fuels) messing up their composition - if that happens, the lubricating properties of the oils take a sharp nosedive. And you are back to square one, i.e. faster wear and premature failure of your engine.

Secondly, the emitted gases are managed on a scale not seen in Euro-3 engines. Apart from the usual catcon, there are other components in the exhaust system with confusing acronyms like DPF, SCR, electronic EGR etc. These components are equally sensitive to the rubbish that Euro-3 (and God forbid, Euro-2) fuels contain, and it is so easy to choke them up when using low quality fuels. And they are awfully expensive (ever tried replacing a catcon that came even with Euro-2 engines?)

Unlike the steps going up from Euro-1 to Euro-3, the step up from Euro-3 to Euro-4 is a pretty big leap - in relative terms this means a reduction from Euro-3 levels of 30% for NOx, HC & CO, but a steep 80% for particulate matter (PM). Which automatically translates to the need for lesser impurities in the fuel being put in.

To make a long story short, BS-III fuels (plus a little kerosene) filled in a BS-IV car is not going to make it drop dead immediately, but will kill it slowly... and rip your pocket in the process too. If the manufacturer's warranty is still valid, the cost will be borne by them - and that's why they are so averse to having BS-IV implemented without the fuel issue being sorted out. And to sort out the fuel issue means an additional investment of some Rs.72,000 crores across the country to upgrade the refineries and distribution system.
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
If filling BS III petrol in a BS IV car can't harm it till March'10, I don't see how it can harm it from April onwards!
I wish it were that simple...

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Originally Posted by xingamazon View Post
Does this also mean the retail rates for the BS IV vehicles are gonna be a bit higher than the BS II and BS III vehicles?? Technically it has to be as the mechanism in which it runs is different.
Yes there is a cost difference between Euro 3 and Euro 4 engines, which can be anything between 20-50k.
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Originally Posted by xingamazon View Post
If yes, then how is the government going to restrcit some user from Chennai from going and buying a car from a place like Cuddalore etc?
The government can't restrict you from buying a BS-III car, as long as you can prove that you reside outside a metro. Some of us have that facility, some don't.
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Originally Posted by xingamazon View Post
Why isnt this implemented uniformly throughtout the country?
The cost...

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 18th January 2010 at 11:06.
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Old 18th January 2010, 11:08   #21
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
To make a long story short, BS-III fuels (plus a little kerosene) filled in a BS-IV car is not going to make it drop dead immediately, but will kill it slowly... and rip your pocket in the process too. If the manufacturer's warranty is still valid, the cost will be borne by them - and that's why they are so averse to having BS-IV implemented without the fuel issue being sorted out. And to sort out the fuel issue means an additional investment of some Rs.72,000 crores across the country to upgrade the refineries and distribution system.
Then how come some companies have introduced E iv compliant cars already in the market? By the time the suitable fuel becomes available after April, the damage already would have commenced!

Conversely, what happens to the E III cars once all metros switch over to E IV fuel? Will they have any adverse effects?
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Old 18th January 2010, 11:14   #22
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BS-III fuel will not kill your engine. Infact, it will have no effect on your engine, common rail etc.,
Only problem may be for the emission system like cat con.

Since indian E-IV norms are not modeled on california norms which require diesel cars to sport some kind of Urea based emission system for active removal of particulate matter, even the emission system will suffer little damage, if any.
At best, a pressurised air cleaning of the cat con will reverse the extra soot.
So unless the car has a particulate filter which chokes on sulfur, Putting E-II or E-III fuel will just mean a car which says E-IV compliant but the exhaust coming out is not E-IV compliant.

Coming to Kerosene, small amounts will cause no damage. Just little loss of power. In higher altitudes cars have to run with 20% kerosene, esp in europe where the temp goes down to -30 in winters.

However the adulteration problem is naptha. It gums the rail and injectors. Advanced sedimet filters which can separate water from diesel can also separate naptha, but it will choke up the expensive filter.

That said if you put E-IV diesel in your E-II car, expect shorter engine life, unless you move to a higher grade engine oil which compensates for lack of lubrication. Even then, fuel pump may have its life shortened.
If Tata was changing the Fuel pump also in the E-IV safari, I would be worried, very worried, however since they are just changing the EGR to water cooled one, it means the E-IV safari can happily use E-III fuel and vice a versa.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 18th January 2010 at 11:15.
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Old 18th January 2010, 12:03   #23
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Then how come some companies have introduced E iv compliant cars already in the market? By the time the suitable fuel becomes available after April, the damage already would have commenced!

Conversely, what happens to the E III cars once all metros switch over to E IV fuel? Will they have any adverse effects?
Some manufacturers are quietly calling their cars Euro-4 ready, which does not necessarily mean that the emissions are Euro-4 compliant. Check what engine oil (API specs etc.) are being used - if the service manual says, say, API-SF/API-SG/API-SH oils are to be used in a petrol engine, or API-CF/API-CG oils in diesels, you can pretty much bet that the engines do NOT run to Euro-4 standards.

On the other hand, E-3 cars are comparatively happier to run on Euro-4 fuels - the slight reduction in lubricative/protective functions provided by the impurities results in far lesser wear-and-tear than, say, an engine designed to run on leaded fuel suffers because of running on unleaded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
BS-III fuel will not kill your engine. Infact, it will have no effect on your engine, common rail etc.,
Only problem may be for the emission system like cat con.

At best, a pressurised air cleaning of the cat con will reverse the extra soot.
So unless the car has a particulate filter which chokes on sulfur, Putting E-II or E-III fuel will just mean a car which says E-IV compliant but the exhaust coming out is not E-IV compliant.
On the contrary, both engine AND exhaust system will suffer damage - but then, even a 50% reduction in an engine's life expectancy may convert to the engine being good for 200,000 km instead of 400,000 km. And even if the exhaust system chokes up, our mechanics and service centres are well-versed in techniques of converting them to free-flow at the cost of peanuts. Emissions go for a six, car runs peppier, no one detects the change, no enforcement mechanism is or will be in place for the next 30 years to check such emissions, and we are all happy.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Coming to Kerosene, small amounts will cause no damage. Just little loss of power. In higher altitudes cars have to run with 20% kerosene, esp in europe where the temp goes down to -30 in winters.

However the adulteration problem is naptha. It gums the rail and injectors. Advanced sedimet filters which can separate water from diesel can also separate naptha, but it will choke up the expensive filter.
Aah, now you've brought up the mother of all adulterants - naphtha!

Indeed, kerosene is the usual additive to prevent diesel from gelling (-10*C) or freezing (-45*C) in India, but arctic diesel is the diesel you want in your tank when driving in -30*C. Current practice is not to use kerosene, but artificial additives (copolymers), or to use low-wax diesels, to modify the gelling and freezing properties. No sulphur there, which our kerosene has in plenty (about 0.5% IIRC) - Euro-4 diesel is permitted to have less than 50ppm (0.005%) and preferably <15ppm (0.0015%) sulphur, so even a 2% adulteration with kerosene... well, you can do the maths about what the sulphur level comes up to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
That said if you put E-IV diesel in your E-II car, expect shorter engine life, unless you move to a higher grade engine oil which compensates for lack of lubrication. Even then, fuel pump may have its life shortened.
If Tata was changing the Fuel pump also in the E-IV safari...
Tata is equally aware that low-wax diesels are decades away from India, and fuel pump lubrication would not be an issue in the next few years.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 18th January 2010 at 12:07.
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Old 18th January 2010, 13:00   #24
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
On the contrary, both engine AND exhaust system will suffer damage - but then, even a 50% reduction in an engine's life expectancy may convert to the engine being good for 200,000 km instead of 400,000 km. And even if the exhaust system chokes up, our mechanics and service centres are well-versed in techniques of converting them to free-flow at the cost of peanuts. Emissions go for a six, car runs peppier, no one detects the change, no enforcement mechanism is or will be in place for the next 30 years to check such emissions, and we are all happy.
.
I beg to disagree here. If you take the E-III safari and the E-IV safari, the only difference is the water cooled EGR. So how will E-III diesel damage the engine? BS-III and BS-IV safaris use the exact same engine with exact same ECU and common rail.
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Old 18th January 2010, 13:18   #25
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I beg to disagree here. If you take the E-III safari and the E-IV safari, the only difference is the water cooled EGR. So how will E-III diesel damage the engine? BS-III and BS-IV safaris use the exact same engine with exact same ECU and common rail.
I am not sure how exactly Tata achieves their emission norms. The world over, it was common consensus that Euro-3/Euro-4 emission norms could only be met by converting to common rail technology in diesels, but here is Tata still selling its non-DiCOR Indica engines which are supposed to be Euro-3 compliant. Soon enough, the same engines will meet Euro-4 (and maybe even Euro-5) norms, without common rail fuel injection.

Even with the exact same engines, do the compression ratios and operating temperatures remain the same on the Safari? And what about the exhaust system?

Tata's engineering mysteries are unfathomable... who better to corroborate that than you?!
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Old 18th January 2010, 13:23   #26
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I don't think the IDI indica can meet E-IV norms. Perhaps they will go Multijet.
In the E-II to E-III transformation, all they did was ad an intercooler to the turbocharged IDI engine.
As for the non turbo engine, an electronic fuel pump did the trick. The major changes happened in the EGR and emission system.
For E-III to E-IV transition, its just the EGR which gets modified. Everything else is same.
Even Mahindra has not modified its mHawk engine for E-IV. Its the same engine, no new engines announced. So I doubt E-III fuel will make an E-IV mHawk go toast.

As for E-IV ready engines, it means that as soon a the fuel becomes ULSD, the emissions will start confirming to E-IV norms.

In california law is different. The cars come with Particulate filters, and Mercedes comes with that urea based emission system which needs to be "recharged" every 5000 miles. A LSD instead of ULSD fuel will damage that kind of system. However, our regulations are based on Europe regulations, so such issues are not a problem.
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Old 18th January 2010, 14:41   #27
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Some manufacturers are quietly calling their cars Euro-4 ready, which does not necessarily mean that the emissions are Euro-4 compliant. Check what engine oil (API specs etc.) are being used - if the service manual says, say, API-SF/API-SG/API-SH oils are to be used in a petrol engine, or API-CF/API-CG oils in diesels, you can pretty much bet that the engines do NOT run to Euro-4 standards.

On the other hand, E-3 cars are comparatively happier to run on Euro-4 fuels - the slight reduction in lubricative/protective functions provided by the impurities results in far lesser wear-and-tear than, say, an engine designed to run on leaded fuel suffers because of running on unleaded.

On the contrary, both engine AND exhaust system will suffer damage - but then, even a 50% reduction in an engine's life expectancy may convert to the engine being good for 200,000 km instead of 400,000 km. And even if the exhaust system chokes up, our mechanics and service centres are well-versed in techniques of converting them to free-flow at the cost of peanuts. Emissions go for a six, car runs peppier, no one detects the change, no enforcement mechanism is or will be in place for the next 30 years to check such emissions, and we are all happy.
SS and TSK - thanks a ton for trying to clear up these mysteries!
So taking a real life example which is close to my heart (and pocketbook) - I have booked an SX4 (which Maruti claims is BS4 ready). Do you know if the engine would get damaged (relatively damaged if you want to split hairs) if I use it till April on BS3 fuels and occasionally BS2 fuels if I go to the hinterlands? I don't have the car yet, so no service manual and don't know the engine oil specs.
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Old 18th January 2010, 14:41   #28
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The biggest refinery in India is making E-IV (and maybe even E-V) fuel for exports. So let the others pack up and go and cry into Mr Deoras lap.
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Old 18th January 2010, 16:43   #29
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I don't think the IDI indica can meet E-IV norms. Perhaps they will go Multijet.
Correct me if I am wrong, but there IS no other BS-III diesel that is NOT common rail.

Quote:
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In california law is different. The cars come with Particulate filters, and Mercedes comes with that urea based emission system which needs to be "recharged" every 5000 miles. A LSD instead of ULSD fuel will damage that kind of system. However, our regulations are based on Europe regulations, so such issues are not a problem.
DPF or SCR (or both together) are the only 2 ways that Euro-4 emissions standards for particulate emissions can be met - whether in US or EU. But the fly in the ointment in both cases is sulphur. So the proper functioning of the gizmos built into the exhaust will be compromised if ULSD is not used - and it won't start functioning again if ULSD is used later on.
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I have booked an SX4 (which Maruti claims is BS4 ready). Do you know if the engine would get damaged (relatively damaged if you want to split hairs) if I use it till April on BS3 fuels and occasionally BS2 fuels if I go to the hinterlands? I don't have the car yet, so no service manual and don't know the engine oil specs.
Relax. Euro-4 ready is not the real thing. All manufacturers are going to sell Euro-4 ready vehicles, not Euro-4 / BS-IV compliant vehicles, till 31 March. Check if the specs say BS-III or BS-IV - write to Maruti and ask for a clarification.
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The biggest refinery in India is making E-IV (and maybe even E-V) fuel for exports. So let the others pack up and go and cry into Mr Deoras lap.
Yes, except that the distribution system just adds kerosene and brings it back to Euro-III. The best the others can do is about 100-150 ppm sulphur - two to three times the maximum permissible amount in E-4 fuels.
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Old 6th February 2010, 22:33   #30
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Our FIAT UNO was EURO III way back in 2001. Is that the reason why the engine started getting carbon deposits quite early in its life. IN that case these oil companies should be sued for creating all these issues in all these cars. Can you even imagine how much damage could have been done all these years to all these cars.

Now you are scaring me out of my liking towards the Ritz. Where do i get the list of these 13 cities they are talking about.
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