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Old 6th January 2010, 22:12   #1
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Default Bigger Turbo/Intercooler on Bolero DI possible?

Is it possible to install an intercooler on the Bolero DI Turbo engine? How much of an improvement will be there? Alternatively, can a bigger Turbo be installed? What about a cold-air intake?

I'm considering buying a new Bolero SLE. The only problem with it seems to be that it is underpowered. If it is possible to tweak it for more power, then it would make more sense for me to look for a second-hand vehicle and modify it. I am intrigued by the idea of having a 'sleeper' Bolero.

I know that this might sound a crazy idea to some, but I was going through the mod/rebuild threads in this section, and it seems to me that every other rebuild is being done with an engine that has either an aftermarket turbo or an intercooler fitted.

Considering how popular Boleros are around here, I'm surprised that no one has been modifying it for power. Most of the mods seem to be visual. It's a 2.5L engine after all, and 63 bhp seems very restrained.
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Old 7th January 2010, 00:36   #2
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Bigger turbo will give a big lag.
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Old 7th January 2010, 00:38   #3
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for what you need more power.??? offroading, hill climbing or hauling

Everything is possible. Its the money that matters. also you know what? that will definitely void the warranty of your vehicle.
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Old 7th January 2010, 01:23   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinar View Post
Bigger turbo will give a big lag.
I see. But the boost would be significantly better, won't it? I think that it is an acceptable trade-off. I am more interested in an intercooler though.

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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
for what you need more power.??? offroading, hill climbing or hauling

Everything is possible. Its the money that matters. also you know what? that will definitely void the warranty of your vehicle.
I'd like to have a bit more power in the highway so that it can overtake occasionally without having to plan half an hour in advance.

Yeah, I know that the waranty will be voided. Which is why I'm considering a used vehicle. I reckon that I can spend the difference on mods.

What I'm really interested in is an intercooler. The Bolero DI doesn't have one, as far as I know. I'd like to know if one can be fitted to it, and whether it can be locally sourced from a similar capacity engine, like the Scorpio's.

I would consider the VLX, but the engine is too young, and the R&D was done by Mahindra itself, unlike on the Scorpio engine. There's no way of knowing how the engine life will be affected until someone has covered 100K kms at least. A TCIC job on the other hand, isn't as fancy, and has less stuff to fail. There's also the charm and appeal of non-stock hardware.
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Old 7th January 2010, 08:08   #5
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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
I see. But the boost would be significantly better, won't it? I think that it is an acceptable trade-off. I am more interested in an intercooler though.
Dude, you seem to be right about the "boost". Apparently the Turbo in the MDI 3200 TC is only for emission regulation; I guess a real turbo would give a bump in power!

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
I'd like to have a bit more power in the highway so that it can overtake occasionally without having to plan half an hour in advance.
Completely with you on this! I had done some 32Ks of highway driving mostly; I would be far less stressful if the engine had some 10 -15 more Bhps.

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
Yeah, I know that the waranty will be voided. Which is why I'm considering a used vehicle. I reckon that I can spend the difference on mods.
If you read the T&C carefully; it comes out that the only part that will be covered is the iron block of the engine which you cant do much in terms of destruction anyways! Forget the warranty on a Bolero; IMO you dont need it!

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
What I'm really interested in is an intercooler. The Bolero DI doesn't have one, as far as I know. I'd like to know if one can be fitted to it, and whether it can be locally sourced from a similar capacity engine, like the Scorpio's.
It can be fitted; how much of an advantage it can give the engine gurus on the forum can enlighten!

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
I would consider the VLX, but the engine is too young, and the R&D was done by Mahindra itself, unlike on the Scorpio engine. There's no way of knowing how the engine life will be affected until someone has covered 100K kms at least. A TCIC job on the other hand, isn't as fancy, and has less stuff to fail. There's also the charm and appeal of non-stock hardware.
True.

Regarding the CAI; you can get them from K&N or Green. I have a GREEN storm kit in mine; it does make a difference. But there is only so much the filter can do with this iron Lump.
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Bigger Turbo/Intercooler on Bolero DI possible?-green.jpg  

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Old 7th January 2010, 15:06   #6
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OK, now the you mention what your looking for here goes,
A bigger turbo will incres the LAG [higher up in the rpm] , problem the rev band for the engine is very small so this one will reduce it futher, it'll be difficult driving it on high or for that matter any place.
An inter cooler will give an increase in power of roughly 10-12 BHP considering that your using a inter cooler off a M&M vehicle [size makes a big difference], this is without much fiddly with the FIP. With recaliberating the FIP you can get more but there will be a drop in fuel efficiency, roughly 1-3 KM/L.
A, CIA will give you advantage only of around 1-2 bhp [theoretically], can not tell you what wound be the real advantage since you'll be running a mechanical injection.
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Old 7th January 2010, 20:03   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinar View Post
OK, now the you mention what your looking for here goes,

An inter cooler will give an increase in power of roughly 10-12 BHP considering that your using a inter cooler off a M&M vehicle [size makes a big difference], this is without much fiddly with the FIP. With recaliberating the FIP you can get more but there will be a drop in fuel efficiency, roughly 1-3 KM/L.
Hey Dinar, are you saying that addition of an intercooler can give roughly 20% more power on the DI? If thats proven I'm definitely going for one! Pretty hard to believe though.
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Old 7th January 2010, 20:37   #8
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Originally Posted by josepeter View Post
Hey Dinar, are you saying that addition of an intercooler can give roughly 20% more power on the DI? If thats proven I'm definitely going for one! Pretty hard to believe though.
Yes, 10bhp easily, with little fiddling and proper sizing of the inter cooler, can get a bit more by recalibrating the pump. cooling system may need upgrades to handle the added output.
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Old 9th January 2010, 20:17   #9
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Sorry about the delay, I was busy tyre hunting for my M800. Finally settled for 165/60R12 Yokohama A539s all around, in case anyone wants to know. Curiously, they were Rs. 1950 each, cheaper than the Apollo 155/70R12s I wanted (2250 each).

It seems that an intercooler would be the way to go then, it offers a lot of bhp without sacrificing much, apparently.

I noticed that the Scorpio M2Di makes 70bhp from the same engine. Does anyone know what the differences are? Different FIP maybe? Bigger turbo? Intercooler?

@josepeter: Niiice! That Green Storm kit looks good. What kind of a difference does it make? As in better response or more pull? All across the range or only at the top-end? Details please!!!!

@dinar: 10-15bhp? Wow. That's intrguing. Lemme just see what I can learn about intercoolers.

Seriously, I think that M&M should have plonked a tuned down version of the 2.6 CRDe into the Bolero instead of tweaking the old tractor mill. It is an excellent tractor mill, but still.. Maybe it made more economic sense this way. They seem to have fallen in love with Common rail tech, looking at the two-cylinder CRDe Maxxima. We'll probably see a CRDe rick next .
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Old 10th January 2010, 10:17   #10
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@Vivek: The main job of the intercooler is to cool down the compressed air coming out of the turbo so that it pre-ignition is avoided and also the air can be compressed further in the engine cylinder and still keeping the temperature within limits.

If the Bolero DI engine is not having an intercooler presently, then it means that the output of the turbo isn't significantly compressed ( higher compression = higher pressure = higher temperature; PV/T = Constant). So coupling an intercooler with the existing turbo would cool the air down further and in this case may lead to lesser combustion and efficiency. And not to forget you may end with starting problem.

I would suggest checking out the whole TCIC set of a Scorpio (Turbo/CRDe) and may be with some fiddling, put it into the Bolero DI
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Old 11th January 2010, 11:10   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
@Vivek: The main job of the intercooler is to cool down the compressed air coming out of the turbo so that it pre-ignition is avoided and also the air can be compressed further in the engine cylinder and still keeping the temperature within limits.

If the Bolero DI engine is not having an intercooler presently, then it means that the output of the turbo isn't significantly compressed ( higher compression = higher pressure = higher temperature; PV/T = Constant). So coupling an intercooler with the existing turbo would cool the air down further and in this case may lead to lesser combustion and efficiency. And not to forget you may end with starting problem.
So basically, what you're saying is that the intercooler has to be matched with a 'heavy' turbo for optimum performance. I'll have to do a bit more research on that, because most of the other opinions here suggest that an intercooler would improve performance of any turbo.

In any case, I thought that cooling the charge was better. That's why there are cold-air intakes, right? Cooler charge = denser charge = better power. The only problem that I can see is that a mismatched intercooler might cause a pressure drop that could offset the advantages of the denser charge. But from what I've read, an intercooler almost always increases performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher
I would suggest checking out the whole TCIC set of a Scorpio (Turbo/CRDe) and may be with some fiddling, put it into the Bolero DI
That would probably turn out to be too costly to be worth it, unless I look for the turbo/intercooler in a Chor Bazaar. What about the TCIC setup from the Sumo/Safari?

Last edited by vivekgk : 11th January 2010 at 11:27.
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Old 11th January 2010, 11:27   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
@Vivek: The main job of the intercooler is to cool down the compressed air coming out of the turbo so that it pre-ignition is avoided and also the air can be compressed further in the engine cylinder and still keeping the temperature within limits.

If the Bolero DI engine is not having an intercooler presently, then it means that the output of the turbo isn't significantly compressed ( higher compression = higher pressure = higher temperature; PV/T = Constant). So coupling an intercooler with the existing turbo would cool the air down further and in this case may lead to lesser combustion and efficiency. And not to forget you may end with starting problem.

I would suggest checking out the whole TCIC set of a Scorpio (Turbo/CRDe) and may be with some fiddling, put it into the Bolero DI
A cooler charge will help in boosting the turbo [turbo boost] , thats where you can get the power up by tinkering, and addition fuel pump recal after that will help get more power output.
You can run the intercooler with the existing turbo boost as well ,but the output will be lesser than 10BHP, around 6-7bhp is possible with just and inter cooler.

By the way most of the turbos on DI [M&M] ares similar with only variation in boost control.That the reason for suggesting a M&M ,OEM inter cooler on a similar capacity engine.

Last edited by dinar : 11th January 2010 at 11:32.
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Old 11th January 2010, 11:45   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
So basically, what you're saying is that the intercooler has to be matched with a 'heavy' turbo for optimum performance. I'll have to do a bit more research on that, because most of the other opinions here suggest that an intercooler would improve performance of any turbo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinar View Post
A cooler charge will help in boosting the turbo [turbo boost] , thats where you can get the power up by tinkering, and addition fuel pump recal after that will help get more power output.
You can run the intercooler with the existing turbo boost as well ,but the output will be lesser than 10BHP, around 6-7bhp is possible with just and inter cooler.
I agree with dinar that without fiddling with the FP, injection and the turbo boost, just adding an intercooler may not help much and can be detrimental sometimes.
Below is the text taken from Adding an intercooler
can throw some more light


Quote:
An intercooler, for those who don't know, is essentially a radiator designed to cool the hot "boosted" air coming out of the turbocharger. Because compressing air raises its temperature (generally around 150 degrees F above ambient air temperature for every 7 psi of boost), intercooling goes hand in hand with turbocharging . Since the stock boost in the 22R-TE is about 7 psi, this means that the temperature of the stock system's output (on a 70 degree spring day) would be something like 220 degrees F. Raise the boost to 14 psi, and you're looking at 370 degrees F when the air reaches the injectors; not only does this heat prevent your engine from reaching its performance potential, the hot air expands the fuel mixture, leading to detonation and poor mileage.

Enter the intercooler. Intercoolers can create dramatic results on engines that run a lot of boost, because this excess heat has a place to dissipate. But how much of a difference can an intercooler make on a stock 22R-TE?

From my experience, I'd have to say that an intercooler *by itself* does not yield a significant increase in performance on a 22R-TE running stock boost. This is mostly because the stock boost is so low, but it's also because an intercooler introduces some additional turbo lag, and the stock setup already has enough of that courtesy of its design.
So the question right now is how much is the stock boost from the turbo.

Last edited by MileCruncher : 11th January 2010 at 11:49.
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Old 11th January 2010, 11:56   #14
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M&M engine [ most of them use K03] with a stock boost set at 7PSI [Not sure of this] the new Mhawk uses GT1749V [Variable vane] this one is set at Higher boost.
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Old 11th January 2010, 12:17   #15
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Originally Posted by dinar View Post
M&M engine [ most of them use K03] with a stock boost set at 7PSI [Not sure of this] the new Mhawk uses GT1749V [Variable vane] this one is set at Higher boost.
I'm sure the Bolero CRDe uses a different turbo or the boost is set higher.
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