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Old 2nd March 2010, 08:31   #1
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Default Wagon R - Self starter problem - replace coil or self?

My car has a mild starting problem that it doesn't cranks up occasionally on the first attempt but on the second or third attempt the car starts. I knew its got to do with the self motor & had it checked last evening with M.A.S.S. They confirmed that the coil is weak & all the other parts (mentioned something like carbon brush inside the self & other parts like flywheel) are good & have suggested two options
1. Replace the coil (they call it as armature) costing around 2.4K*
2. Replace the self motor costing about 3.9K*
*Both the works are inclusive of tax & labour

I'm not sure whether to replace the entire self motor or replace only the worn out coil? If I go with replacing only the armature will it provoke some new issues? Pls share your experiences & opinions.

Additional Info
Car has clocked around 40300 till date & its a 2004 Sep model

Thanks in advance for any help
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Old 2nd March 2010, 09:06   #2
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Before you do all that, check whether the connectors are clean - i.e. where the battery wire connects with the starter motor, it collects muck and fungus over a period of time and requires periodical cleaning.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 09:18   #3
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You don't need to replace the entire starter motor. I'm guessing that the starter motor (self) is a Lucas TVS since its a Maruti? If so then the best place to get it serviced is at a Lucas TVS dealer.

I had a problem with my 2001 maruti's self within a week of the warranty running out. The coil (armature) had gone bad and a new one was relatively expensive. I had it re-wound at the Lucas dealer for a third of the cost and it has been trouble free for over 1L+ km now.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 11:11   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hvkumar View Post
Before you do all that, check whether the connectors are clean - i.e. where the battery wire connects with the starter motor, it collects muck and fungus over a period of time and requires periodical cleaning.
Yes Sir; they are clean, I usually do that by myself & hence I'm confident that they're good; besides it should be less than 70-75 days after 40,000 Kms master service from M.A.S.S; also I got the batteries checked 3 weeks back from a good battery dealer that the batteries are good when this problem started appearing first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrackedHead View Post
You don't need to replace the entire starter motor. I'm guessing that the starter motor (self) is a Lucas TVS since its a Maruti? If so then the best place to get it serviced is at a Lucas TVS dealer.

I had a problem with my 2001 maruti's self within a week of the warranty running out. The coil (armature) had gone bad and a new one was relatively expensive. I had it re-wound at the Lucas dealer for a third of the cost and it has been trouble free for over 1L+ km now.
Unfortunately its Denso; the M.A.S.S guy told me exactly as you said - that if its Lucas TVS, then they could get the armature repaired, since its Denso, they could buy a new one & cannot fix it.

My only worry is that replacing this part should not crop to another new issue.

Thanks HVK Sir & CrackedHead
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Old 2nd March 2010, 13:56   #5
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Update - Called up the M.A.S.S to replace the armature; lets see how it performs
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Old 2nd March 2010, 14:40   #6
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If you don't mind the additional cost, definitely recommend to go with a complete replacement for absolute peace of mind.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 14:59   #7
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
If you don't mind the additional cost, definitely recommend to go with a complete replacement for absolute peace of mind.
Whoa!!! this is what the mech recommended while the M.A.S.S owner recommended the armature. I was initially biased towards changing the entire self starter; what I'd in mind was that replacing the entire unit gives a better fixment; however the mech & the M.A.S.S owner assured that "NO" other components are affected & I was in confusion & so I posted it here.

But if may I ask - Why? Are there any known issues fixing only the armature?
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Old 2nd March 2010, 15:26   #8
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See its a wear and tear part, once you fix something there will be something else which can go wrong. With a brand new unit no such issues and generally you get a 6 month warranty on the part.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 15:34   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
See its a wear and tear part, once you fix something there will be something else which can go wrong. With a brand new unit no such issues and generally you get a 6 month warranty on the part.
I see the point & completely agree; I think I misjudged because I'm not aware of all the components that goes into the self; another day goes by with another problem saying "sir carbon brushes are weak" & this time you don't get carbon brushes & you should go in for a new self; if you ask him why he didn't tell this earlier he would shrug & say "saar, electricals we cannot guarantee saar, it comes it goes".

Let me see, if I can call this guy & order for a new self.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 20:28   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aargee View Post
I see the point & completely agree; I think I misjudged because I'm not aware of all the components that goes into the self; another day goes by with another problem saying "sir carbon brushes are weak" & this time you don't get carbon brushes & you should go in for a new self; if you ask him why he didn't tell this earlier he would shrug & say "saar, electricals we cannot guarantee saar, it comes it goes".

Let me see, if I can call this guy & order for a new self.
which car do you have. Do you hear tick tick sound when you try to start the car???
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Old 2nd March 2010, 21:05   #11
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surprising to see the self starter of a Wagon-R conk off so fast(yes,I know of starters to have lasted 10 years with no probs);

I don't think it is that expensive to repair also.Please ensure that the main cable to the starter is in good health and the contact point with starter is clean.After checking this,service the starter at a good electrician's.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 21:35   #12
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armature failour is a big thing and usually does not happne without external impact or water getting inside it( in large quantity),it usually the carbon bushes that get worn out and residual carbon getting here and there in all wrong places,i would suggest,just get the carbon bushes replaced,and get your self cleaned with thinner,any local garage would do the whole job for around 400 bucks,there is a high probability that you would save your 3 grands bucks!!
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Old 2nd March 2010, 21:44   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
armature failour is a big thing and usually does not happne without external impact or water getting inside it( in large quantity),it usually the carbon bushes that get worn out and residual carbon getting here and there in all wrong places,i would suggest,just get the carbon bushes replaced,and get your self cleaned with thinner,any local garage would do the whole job for around 400 bucks,there is a high probability that you would save your 3 grands bucks!!
+1 to that. Change the carbon brushes, check the solenoid and replace if required, and you can save a packet. Armatures don't wear out, they can short out, though that's a very unlikely thing to happen unless water got into the starter or the bearings broke.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 21:50   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aargee View Post
Whoa!!! this is what the mech recommended while the M.A.S.S owner recommended the armature. I was initially biased towards changing the entire self starter; what I'd in mind was that replacing the entire unit gives a better fixment; however the mech & the M.A.S.S owner assured that "NO" other components are affected & I was in confusion & so I posted it here.

But if may I ask - Why? Are there any known issues fixing only the armature?
If you are replacing the armature only (and the self is yet to be assembled) then go ahead and change the carbon bushes as preventive maintenance.

Do a through check of the moving parts (bearings etc.) and you should be all set.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 22:11   #15
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first of all has the electrician checked the armature windings for any short circuiting?also check if the bearing rotates freely otherwise a misaligned bearing may lead to unwanted thrust loads on the armature shaft during its rotation thereby reducing its life,as said earlier it is better to get the carbon brushes changed

Spike

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 2nd March 2010 at 22:12. Reason: add info
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