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Old 6th March 2010, 01:00   #16
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@apachelongbow
Wouldn't the expense involved in drilling the undiscovered/untapped oil in those places affect the prices of oil? or atleast come at a cost of say environmental damage?
agreed, the theory could be flawed and this whole thing could be a major conspiracy, just I suspect is with gold too. Still...hypothetically, the only plausible reason that the oil isn't drilled there, is because it's going to cost a lot to get it in the first place.

Judging by the trading pattern of ships, as I do work on them, crude oil is being exported just as much as it was before. The demand is increasing, which is also what keeps the prices up.
the day people stop consuming oil - oil companies would have no place to store petroleum products.
Yes, people are on the lookout for alternative sources of energy, the UNFCCC has a major role to play with the ever increasing degradation of our planet, I guess it's our turn as responsible "planeteers" too, to start reducing our demands.
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Old 6th March 2010, 16:43   #17
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Dear Dharmesh,

I wish you throw some light on some of my long unanswered questions.
  • The NOx emissions of the Bio diesel increases with increasing concentration, I have been hearing that this can be easily decreased with addition of some additives, but why do we need that when we can come out of it with the help of Exhaust gas recirculation. Is it true that Bio fuels have characteristic cleaning effect (dont know how exactly to put it in words but I hope you got my point) which results in lower wear in fuel system.
    I would wish to hear more about the NOx battle
  • In Europe due to strict emission norms, Diesel Particulate Filters(DPF) have almost become a standard. I have absolutely not much information about the particulate emission by the bio diesel. But I heard that the fuel almost has different characteristics based on the source from which it is made from. Maybe you can give us some comparison with some south american nations and India.
  • I always felt that usage of bio fuels meant loss in power when running in full load (typical diesel application) maybe your can share you views on this. And also the fuel consumption on the same volume (not the price level) I am thinking of the vehicle's range and not fuel economy.
thanks a ton in advance hoping to hear from you soon.

Last edited by rranjith_kum : 6th March 2010 at 16:44. Reason: spelling
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Old 6th March 2010, 23:28   #18
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@rranjith_kum

Hello Ranjith,

Time to fulfill your wishes, we will take queries one by one:-

1.) NOx emissions of the Bio diesel increases with increasing concentration...

The tailpipe emissions of Diesel engines with Biodiesel blends is a very interesting subject to study. More you study, more you understand how the whole thing work. NREL (National Renewable Energy Lab, US) & NBB (National Biodiesel Board, US)has done wonderful job evaluating everything related to Biodiesel application/quality/nitty gritties.

First & foremost, download the pdf presentation attached in the reply & understand it fully.

Than I suggest that you refer to...

http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/r...101_gen382.pdf

...& then come back if you still have queries. Just to give you basic idea, Biodiesel contains less Carbon, more hydrogen & oxygen* as compared to Fossil diesel (*Fossil diesel is Hydrocarbon & no oxygen is present in the fuel itself unless some Oxygentaors are added to boost the performance of fuel). This oxygen reacts with Nitrogen present in the compressed air (remember, we studied in school about how much Nitrogen is present in the air) inside the engine during firing. By the way, more you blend Biodiesel in your fuel, more NOx emissions will be there as you be putting more oxygen in the engine.

By the way, latest research says that upto B20 on average, you dont see much difference on NOx emissions. Check NREL study shows B20 usage doesn’t affect NOx emissions - Biodiesel Magazine

There are many ways to reduce NOx emission due to use of Biodiesel & easy one is to add additive else you have to make changes with injection system, Air/fuel ratios, compression ratios. Check http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/r...01_gen-040.pdf

Instead of disturbing engine or expecting your car maker to do this kind of favor for you, cheaper/simpler/faster way is to add Additives. Biodiesel gives too many benefits & can easily compensate for additive cost ofcourse. That complete first point raised by you.

Now as it was your wish, I will give you some added bonus my friend. There is way through which you can convert Vegetable oil into something which is known as Green Diesel. As explained above, Oxygen present in Biodiesel plays the role of culprit to raise NOx in Tailpipe emissions. Now think about a process which replaces that Oxygen with Hydrogen (Definitely you wont like to increase carbon, do you?? We are talking about Carbon sequestering these days so no more carbon please). The process of coverting Veg Oil into Green diesel is named as Ecofining (TM) by the firm that commercialized it (UOP LLC, USA). Check Ecofining for Green Diesel Fuel

Whoop, that was a long answer but then, it was a matter of your wish, right.

2.) In Europe due to strict emission norms, Diesel Particulate Filters(DPF) have almost become a standard...

I wont spend much of my weekend time on this one, here you go. quote from external link For diesel exhaust system suppliers, the past several years have been consumed by development and fine-tuning of emission control technologies so that original equipment manufacturers (OEM) can meet very strict U.S. EPA regulations on particulate matter and nitrogen oxides (NOx). That huge body of work culminates in the 2010 production year as unprecedented design and function result in ultra-sophisticated commercial systems. Liquid urea and a storage tank, injectors, mixers, catalysts and sensors are just some of the items many aftertreatment systems utilize to convert NOx into nitrogen and water. Upstream from NOx control in many designs is a diesel particulate filter (DPF), which traps virtually all of the black soot typically associated with diesel trucks. Before the DPF, most systems have a diesel oxidation catalyst (DOC) to oxidize the hydrocarbons.

For details,read Year of the SCR System - Biodiesel Magazine

& then read some more about Post Injection systems:

Understanding the Post-Injection Problem - Biodiesel Magazine

That is more than you need for the time being

Let us move to last query now.

3.) I always felt that usage of bio fuels meant loss in power when running in full load (typical diesel application) maybe your can share you views on this.....

Very good question. Majority of the people ask about FE but you queried about Power, I am impressed. To answer this, I suggest you refer to a very elaborate reply I gave to Rehaan's queries on 4th March in the same thread. It is not a matter of just Loss of power. There are too many factors involved with in it & it is not so simple to explain unless the whole picture of how engines work is clear. At a grass route level, try to grab some stuff on "Heat of combustion" & "Energy Content" of various fuels. Energy content is directly related to FE. Biodiesel is a very good lubricant & infact give you better performance when used with ULSD (Less sulfur means more friction). Now coming back to basic question asked, diesel engine's role is to convert the energy content present in the fuel to power. Now if an engine is designed for a particular volume of fuel going into the system than it will definitely give you less power with biodiesel since same volume (or mass) of Biodiesel on any given day will give you less energy than same volume (or mass) of fossil fuel. That is the way they are expected to behave. Ofcourse you can compensate for the loss of power when you use Biodiesel blends by tweaking Volume of Biodiesel blend injected in the engine but what impact that will cause may be answered by an engine specialist/Distinguished/Senior BHPian having far better knowledge on that aspect. One thing for sure, you start playing with these hardcore settings & you may have many consequences (Good as well bad for sure) & you may void OEM guarantees as well so be cautious before playing with you car.

I tried my best to completely answer your wishlist. Let me know if somethingis missing. I forgot to answer about cleaning effect of Biodiesel & to answer that, I will say Biodiesel is a very strong Organic solvent & have the potential to eat many of the normal rubber parts & spoil your gaskets/o-rings/other incompatible material. Once you start using Biodiesel, you are expected to clean/replace your fuel filter very soon because Biodiesel is known to flush all the junk present in your Fuel tank. One of my friend working for a World giant in Biofuel even asked me to help him with exploring Indian market for Methyl Soyate (Soy Oil Biodiesel) as organic Industrial solvent that can replace non-renewable solvents of similar specs. You might have seen mechanics cleaning the engine parts with diesel/petrol removed from your tank. Just check this time what they are doing with that same stuff if it does not get evaporated all (I am talking about large service station who produce too much of the waste solvent). Its a long subject itself so may be we can catch up sometime later with this.

Regards
Dharmesh
Attached Files
File Type: pdf NOx impact on Tailpipe emissions.pdf (283.5 KB, 1415 views)
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Old 7th March 2010, 15:42   #19
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Dear Dharmesh,

Bro I m impressed I never got such a reply like this before, thanks a ton.

I just want to discuss one more thing.
This is mostly related to the DPF(diesel particulate filter). I still remember from my lectures regarding the regeneration processes of the DPF. The issue is I think you might be knowing this fact very well about the post injection.
Right now the fuel economy has become so critical, all these because of the fleet average standard in EU and every OEMS have become very stringent. For every regeneration process (of the DPF) so you spend more fuel, you post inject, the HC burn in the DOC providing the required temperature for the DPF to burn the soot. My question is with respect to the Bio diesel, do we experience more particulate matter (PM) than the conventional diesel. This would translate to more number of regeneration processes and hence less fuel economy (but is the whole bio diesel worth this trade off). Is it true that the amount of PM varies significantly based on the type and the blend of the bio diesel. By type I am trying to mean the source used for blend. I hear there are a lot of sources and I absolutely dont know them all but arent we more concentrated on Jatropha. I still remember one of my friend presented about bio diesel from Algae. So my second question wasnt that very well put into words in my previous post. My apologies, I wanted to know the PM emission stuff and these different sources of blend probably a list would do ( I mean I tried to collect a lot of information in this but I feel the list is never complete for eg in some of the websites Soy bean and all is listed but Jatrpoha is missing. I know that we are working on Jatropha and the South American countires have their own sources) In the mean time I will also try to look in for sources but in case if you already have them maybe then you can post them. Thanks once again.

P.S: I dont know for some reason the trend in Europe seems to be more on Hybrids and Electric vehicles right now. I feel India is doing a lot more with respect to bio fuels
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Old 8th March 2010, 01:17   #20
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QUOTE=rranjith_kum

The HC burn in the DOC providing the required temperature for the DPF to burn the soot.

Good one...check this patent doc for more insight:

Enhanced post injection control system for diesel particulate filters - US Patent Application 20070000238 Description

I suggest you follow following path to learn more about this whole thing.

Warm up with good amount of search on tailpipe emissions of automobiles.
Now move to searching for some stuff on Catalysts & their types/actions/role.

Now I suggest that you read each & every word of HowStuffWorks "How Catalytic Converters Work"

Than some more if you have not touched upon them earlier:

Catalytic converter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Selective catalytic reduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My question is with respect to the Bio diesel, do we experience more particulate matter (PM) than the conventional diesel. This question shows that you didnt open the presentation attached in my earlier reply to you.

I still remember one of my friend presented about bio diesel from Algae. Ask that friend to sell you Algal Biodiesel for 3 times the price you pay at your place for fossil diesel or Biodiesel. You wont get even 50 mL from him, I can bet on that.

in some of the websites Soy bean and all is listed but Jatrpoha is missing. with due respect to your s/w skills, suggest that you work on Advance search tools of Google. Also read my earlier replies on the same thread.

Thanks once again. I am here to update all fellow BHPians for Biofuel queries but queries need to come with some basic understanding of the subject.

I dont know for some reason the trend in Europe seems to be more on Hybrids and Electric vehicles right now. I will write more about "How Environment friendly" EV's are. You need to understand the "Life Cycle Terminology" for any source of energy, be it electricity or Biofuels or fossil fuels. It is a very interesting subject. Will talk about it later. Here is just a laymen level Bird's eyeview:-

Think of coal coming out of a mine in Dhanbad, travelling in a Coal Train to a NTPC power plant in Noida for Thermal power generation route, electricity generated travelling to your home through High Transmission wires & finally charging your EV. Try to put some basic efficiencies numbers for estimating EROEI starting from Coal Mine to your EV's tyres. This type of assesment will give you a LCA of Cradle to grave analysis or in case of Fossil fuels, it is called Well to Wheel analysis for LCA (Life Cycle Assesment. You will know what you actually did by trying to save energy using EVs.

Rememver it is a subjective issue & need lot of detailing to come to a final number/conclusion for EROEI.

I feel India is doing a lot more with respect to bio fuels Search for India Govt approved price for Bioethanol & Biodiesel & you will not ask why I said so[/b]

As mentioned earlier, please do read my earlier posts/read the weblinks given/go through the files linked. Many of queries will be solved immediately or atleast you will get a path to follow to get more answers. Come back with some hardcore queries. I really liked the 'Power" query you asked yesterday, honestly speaking.

Cheers,
Dharmesh
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Old 11th March 2010, 16:36   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmeshmahajan View Post
....Here are the answers to your queries:-
Thanks for the VERY detailed reply Hope the size of it doesn't scare away other readers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmeshmahajan View Post
....Biofuel are from agri crops & agri crops pull CO2 from atmosphere to grow. If you release this CO2 by burning Biofuels in your engine, you are again sending the CO2 into the Carbon cycle....
One question regarding the above -
In basic biology we are taught that plants use CO2 in the day, but product CO2 at night -- so net net is the CO2 usage == production overall? Or is it in favour of one?

cya
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Old 11th March 2010, 16:53   #22
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Hi dharmeshmahajan,

Ok let me go a little OT here.

1.Suppose i want to grow biodiesel seeds which is the best plant.
2.When will it start/stop yielding crop and to whom should i sell it.
3.What will be the average crop produced per acre per year(in kgs).
4.do i need water(wet land) or will it grow in dry lands (only rains)

pls reply to this

Thanks,
Vamsi
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Old 11th March 2010, 16:56   #23
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I heared that the fields that raise crops used to have bio-fuel, cannot be used for any other farming for years. Food crops cultivation should not be hampered for fuel.
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Old 12th March 2010, 13:57   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmeshmahajan View Post
........I am here to update all fellow BHPians for Biofuel queries but queries need to come with some basic understanding of the subject.....
So no place for people not having understanding??? Most of the end users like me can not acquire the knowledge and burn the fuel!! I read some post, most of the times could not understand and went back and forth between the posts and re-read some paras not understanding much, fell asleep in the office once too reading during the lunch break!!! blah blah blahhhh!!!

All I want to know for now is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmeshmahajan View Post
.... Biofuel are meant to replace Fossil fuel with a renewable form of energy & reduce the CO2/GHG emissions. ....
Along with those benefits if I dont lose much on power/pick-up or on FE and the doesnt damage the car, I am willing to put in the biodiesel in my car from the next tank up onwards(in another two days!!). I just need to figure out where I can get that good quality one in Hyderabad.
My car: 2006 Hyundai Accent CRDi done around 65K so far(next servicing at 67K).
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Old 12th March 2010, 22:14   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
One question regarding the above -
In basic biology we are taught that plants use CO2 in the day, but product CO2 at night -- so net net is the CO2 usage == production overall? Or is it in favour of one?R
Very Good question...its like, you eat all day, feel hungry 3 times but sleep all night without issues because body burn the calories earned during the day. Though I am not a Biology guy, the term for Plants doing same (Pulling CO2 all day & releasing CO2 in the night) is called Diurnal Respiration & loss during that is going to be approximate 35%. In short, plant does not loose all they earn but some stuff goes back during night. In the day they have Photosynthesis at their service but such is not the case in the day. For more elaborate answer, may be some botany guy can help you out. But I know well that we do get huge amount of Carbon through the crops. Algae is one of the best examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddy6980 View Post
Hi dharmeshmahajan,

Ok let me go a little OT here.

1.Suppose i want to grow biodiesel seeds which is the best plant.
2.When will it start/stop yielding crop and to whom should i sell it.
3.What will be the average crop produced per acre per year(in kgs).
4.do i need water(wet land) or will it grow in dry lands (only rains)
I am not here for consulting job. I mentioned in earlier replies that basic understanding is expected & for that, everyone has got Google Search engines atleast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogeshnaik View Post
I heared that the fields that raise crops used to have bio-fuel, cannot be used for any other farming for years. Food crops cultivation should not be hampered for fuel.
Come back with the reference/source of the stuff you heard/relevant info & I would be glad to answer your query.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkr2k2 View Post
So no place for people not having understanding??? Most of the end users like me can not acquire the knowledge and burn the fuel!!
You didnt read completely what I wrote there. It was "Basic understanding". For basic understanding, Google is like a God sent gift. People need to put their efforts in & need to show that they are as serious for the stuff as we are. Honestly speaking, I came across some very interesting queries & I loved answering them. But than there also exist some vague queries which does not deserve a reply for sure, atleast at the cost of my personal time.

Quote kkr2k2 ll I want to know for now is:

Man you are very lucky. You are based in a city which has India's best plants nearby. Kakinada is a good hub where Biodiesel processing takes place. Search for Natural Biofuels, Kakinada & Southern Online Biofuel
They do process good quality Biodiesel (My assumption only because plants are built by well reputed firms). Just ask them for the quality specs name (Has to be ASTM D6751 or IS-15607). Does not compromise their. Check with them for blended Biodiesel stations in your city. Also check with your car manufacturer about how much Biodiesel blend it can take (B5 will not make any headache for sure). You will get better results if Biodiesel is really good. You get lubrication & it also cleans your fuel system. Ensure that you clean your fuel filter or atleast check that after 1 or 2 month as Biodiesel will clean the tanks. I also want to warn you about Fish Oil based Biodiesel which is being processed in that part of country. It stinks a lot

Cheers,
Dharmesh

PS: I will be out of station & will not be accessing internet hence no replies will be possible for further remarks untill week of 21st March. Bear with me.
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Old 15th March 2010, 12:41   #26
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Dear Dharmesh, Thanks a lot for detailed Q&A's.

But do you really feel that BioDiesel shall be the best option for future ( as we can see hopes from things like Bloom energy).

Solution for future may be near to us --- Rediscovery is needed.
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Old 15th March 2010, 13:14   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
Dear Dharmesh, Thanks a lot for detailed Q&A's.

But do you really feel that BioDiesel shall be the best option for future ( as we can see hopes from things like Bloom energy).

Solution for future may be near to us --- Rediscovery is needed.
Hello Mr. Bond

You are Welcome for compliments given for answers but for nice questions, credit goes to fellow BHPians. Some questions asked were really very interesting & I liked a lot to revert back to them.

Yes, We do feel that Biofuel are going to be the only option in the days to come. OT, I suggest you to watch An Inconvenient Truth, a Oscar winning movieby AL Gore. Infact whosoever has concern about the climate related concern Must Wacth this movie. It will blow off all your misconception & you will start thinking seriously to put your best to save mother earth for coming generations. I may sound making a cliche kind of statement but just watch this movie my friend, if in case you missed it.

Now going specific to Biodiesel, Feedstock stays the major problem to solve. It makes 80-85% of overall Cost of Production so you can understand the role of Feedstock itself in the whole picture.

Thanks & take care, let me know what you felt about the movie by Al Gore.

Regards
Dharmesh
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Old 15th March 2010, 14:57   #28
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Default Wow, wow and wow

Superb information and thread I must say. The gamut of info you have and the amount of time and effort you spend in answering queries is just stupendous. Hats off to you Sir.
I dont have any questions. Whatever I had is being answered automatically by going through the documents and links you have mentioned.
Just wanted to say "Thank You".
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Old 15th March 2010, 20:30   #29
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Originally Posted by reddy6980 View Post
Hi dharmeshmahajan,

Ok let me go a little OT here.

1.Suppose i want to grow biodiesel seeds which is the best plant.
2.When will it start/stop yielding crop and to whom should i sell it.
3.What will be the average crop produced per acre per year(in kgs).
4.do i need water(wet land) or will it grow in dry lands (only rains)

pls reply to this
Dear Vamsi,

I am sorry for sounding offensive but I was very upset due to some sad news at that time when I came across your post.

Here we go with your queries one by one:-

1. First, remember that you are not growing Biodiesel seeds, what you need to grow is Oil seeds. Ok. Now which is the best plant to grow depends upon what kind of location/land/water supply throughout the year/sun light/money you have. OT, I came across someone who wanted to put a Corporate farming in place in Sudan (Desert sand, you know that)& was willing to bring Nile's water across 8 Kms distance using Pumps & pipelines. Currently, proven plant is Palm Tree (Palm Oil) which gives huge yields (in the range of 4-5 MTon/Year/Hectare) but need specific climatic conditions. Now people do talk & claim a lot about Algae which is expected to return from 50-180 MT Oil/Year/Hectare but that has been proven at small scale not at commercial level. If anyone disagree (& I know many people will do that) than let me know how many tankers of Algal Oil with commercially acceptable pricel they can sell me on that day of disagreement. In laymen kind of example, think why Africans almost always win Marathon & why American are taller & broadbuilt than Indian. Reason is, they are born in that type of climate with that kind of genes.

2. I am not going to answer that, you got answer for 1st one & now you can decide yourself for 2nd one.

3. Answer is hidden in the 1st one, right??

4.There exist no free lunches my friend. You dont give anything to plant, you get nothing in return from the same plant. Check one link given about Blunder Crop Jatropha & bingoyou get your answer.

Hope that answered your query.

Regards
DM
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Old 16th March 2010, 03:45   #30
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Thanks man. This helped a bit.

I know about the gestation period of these plants. I am from a farm and one thing i know is its not a short term bet like what many are after now. The reason i was interested is due to the fact that a majority in our place are quitting paddy cultivation as it really doesnt work out. Labor is really expensive and and sustaining it on a food crop is really hard.

I agree to one point that labor laws in india are not very strict and farm labor is not paid alot but think about it.
Paddy sells at 750 for 100 kilos. Its very un economical at times. The costs we expect would raise and still we get the same price.

Anyways sorry on being off topic.

@Dharmesh: Is Palm cultivable in flood regions? What about Jatropa?
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