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Old 2nd March 2010, 22:49   #1
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Smile Biofuels : Explained & explored. Must read for Biodiesel admirers

Hello Team BHPians,

I am Dharmesh & more about me can be checked at my "Introduce Yourself" section

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/introd...r-bhpians.html (Bonjour BHPians...)

I am proud to be involved with Biofuels (Biodiese to be precise) for last couple of years & have invested my last 5 years in the subject. With my limited knowledge on the subject , I am here at your service to help you/update you/suggest you & resolve your queries related to Biofuels. It is indeed very interesting subject & almost always covered with huge amount of conspiracies surrounding it. Infact last year, Biofuels were compared with a baby being thrown out with dirty water for no fault of its own all over the world.

Near home, everyone talked a lot about Jatropha bringing revolution to the life of "Gareeb aadmi" having access to waste land only for last couple of years but end of the day same brigade gave the final verdict to poor Jatropha with a catchy title of "From Wonder crop to Blunder crop: Jatropha".

I am very much here to resolve any such doubt/questions or concerns that you may have (Technical/ethical/) as an end user.

Regards,
Dharmesh
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Old 3rd March 2010, 23:46   #2
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dharmeshmahajan,

1) Whats the area in which you think biofuels will be most advantageous?

2) What impact does / will this have on automobiles?

3) 3 best things about biofuels and 3 worst things?

Thanks,
R
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Old 3rd March 2010, 23:55   #3
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Could you specify why do is it called blunder crop.

As a guy with land who feels that he wants to cultivate Jatropa is it good for me to invest now and start the cultivation? There is so much land which usually is going uncultivated as Paddy is not much of a cash crop and also is very labor intensive but due to the labor shortage is not being cultivated. Is it worth cultivating this crop?

From a point of view in comparison to Palm oil and Jatropa which one is better in terms of where do you think i would have better sale of the product cultivated. Palm oil has this company which has collecting depots all over the district where weekly collections are made and prices are fixed and doesnt fluctuate. Anything of this sort for Jatropa?
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Old 4th March 2010, 10:57   #4
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I read that biodiesel needs to be mixed with regular diesel because the engine fuel pumps can't handle it. Can you elaborate further?

since it is biodiesel, I don't agree that it is completely eco friendly. There must something that's paying for either cost of recyling, cost of production or emissions from engines.

I've seen a person at the Auto Expo in Mumbai a few years back demonstrating, albeit with pics the "wonders" of bio diesel. Never knew what happened to him, but it is possible that the someone shut him up. Is there anything that you plan to do different this time?
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Old 4th March 2010, 11:42   #5
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In a country with food shortage, what is the impact of farmers taking to Jathropa? Diesel is expensive, and fuel will always give more money than food crops. Jathropa can grow in arid lands where crops cannot be grown, but sooner or later when demand gets high you will have good fertile food capable land being converted to jathropa.
Now if we go the Brazil way i.e. 10% of diesel is biodiesel, how much arable land will be converted in your opinion? You must be aware of yields per hectare, and a rough calculation can reveal how much % of arable land would need to be dedicated to Jathropa?
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Old 4th March 2010, 22:27   #6
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Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
dharmeshmahajan,

1) Whats the area in which you think biofuels will be most advantageous?

2) What impact does / will this have on automobiles?

3) 3 best things about biofuels and 3 worst things?

Thanks,
R
Hello Rehaan,

Here are the answers to your queries:-

1) Biggest mistake people do normally is to compare prices/efficiencies of Biofuels with Fossil fuel. That is a very sad approach. Biofuel are meant to replace Fossil fuel with a renewable form of energy & reduce the CO2/GHG emissions. Also, EROEI (EROEI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is always higher for Biofuels when compared with Fossil fuels. Saving the planet earth for next generation should be given weightage than saving some money. This is applicable to all renewable form of energy & Hybrids. Only because I work in Biofuel does not mean that I will promote them only, what I am saying is from an independent perspective.

Beside that, when we talk of Higher Emission standards like Euro IV, you have to have extra ordinary clean fuel which normally means Ultra low sulfer content. Now when you go for Ultra Low sulfer, friction is going to increase in engine & you may have more friction causing more troubles. Biodiesel, per say, is known to improve Lubrication to great extent if blended with ULSD & sometime it is reported that this lubrication property has compensated for lesser energy density (Biodiesel is known to have 88% approx energy compared on Volume/Volume basis) that Biodiesel carries with it.

2.) There are mixed kind of impacts on automobiles. First & foremost, blender need to ensure the quality of biofuel. Assume you buying a Biodiesel/Bioethanol blended fuel with great feelings about your sincere effort of trying to save the earth & then you realize your engine has started giving you troubles due to that initiatives. ASTM D 6751 -08 (For US) & EN 14214 (For Europe)are very stringent to meet & people compromise a lot to make more profit while making Biodiesel. Indian standards for Biodiesel are IS-15607 which are almost a copy of ASTM/EN specs. Biodiesel may carry lot of impurities to spoil your engine (big topic to cover in this conversation but I will post full dedicated details soon, & they will be simpler to understand for anyone) whereas Bioethanol normally may carry more water content with it into your engine & fuel system.

Now after talking about possible bad things in short, I need to tell you the good part. Biodiesel reduces all the pollutants except one (NOx Content) & the carbon footprint you create is far less. You may feel less guilty for polluting earth. These days we talk about Amount of CO2 emitted per KM & purpose of that consideration is to give a feel about the load you are putting on environment. Biofuel are from agri crops & agri crops pull CO2 from atmosphere to grow. If you release this CO2 by burning Biofuels in your engine, you are again sending the CO2 into the Carbon cycle. Now this is not same for Fossil fuels. You get them upstream, process them in downstream, burn in your engine & put an extra load on environment.

Beside pollution things, Biofuel are known to give extra edge to vehicle performance for many reasons. Again a lengthy subject to discuss here & I will post it soon.

3.) Based purely on my personal views:-

The 3 Best things about Biofuel:

a) Biofuel will help you save some clean air for your next generations. Check the numbers of asthma patients in Metros like Delhi/Mumbai/Banglore etc. More simpler, just check color of your shirt's collar after a open window car drive or a bike drive through roads of Delhi/Banglore or any other metro city. You will realize what kind of air we are providing to the kids who dont know what they are breathing in. We all are the culprits for giving them slow poisons in the form of smoke/pollutants. I have seen many trucks/buses plying on heavily subsidized Kerosene instead of Diesel. They need to be charged with heaviest possible criminal charge & fines/penalities need to be large enough to make them & their owners bankrupt so that no one will ever dare to do this again.

b) Biofuel will provide countries like India a form of security called "Energy Security". Our fuel import bill is way high today as we import almost 70 or more % of our fossil fuel requirements. Just check this:

Department of Commerce, Government of India

"Oil imports during January, 2010 were valued at US $ 7053 million which was 56.0 per cent higher than oil imports valued at US $ 4522 million in the corresponding period last year. Oil imports during April, 2009- January, 2010 were valued at US$ 63971 million which was 25.3 per cent lower than the oil imports of US $ 85623 million in the corresponding period last year. "

I didnt try to convert that to INR but you can count the zeros easily. If we will be able to produce our own Biofuel utilizing waste land available with India than we will be able to give self-employment to millions of poor people & same time be able to reduce imports. unfortunately Oil lobby is so strong that they do ensure hurdles for such a serious cause by some or other excuses. More so, so called Waste land in India is mostly poached 7 there is a very big & organized Land mafia everywhere. All in all, it is a totally different ball game altogether.

c) Biofuel will definitely help our beloved cars hit the roads once again one day when Fossil fuel will be over. World Fossil reserve are not going to last till eternity & it is matter of time...some decades later, we will not have Fossil fuel available. One must read about Peak Oil Theory

Check Peak oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now the negative points, again purely based on my own views:-

a) Biofuel comes from Agri crops & for growing them, you need land. Country like India has less land & comparatively more people to feed. Hunger for making more money by growing biofuel crops has resulted in serious devastaion of Amazon (Brazil), African forests & other beautiful jungles all over the world. There was a serious debate over "Food vs Fuel" & just check Home (Food Not Fuel)

where people went to extent of stating:

“Biofuels are a crime against humanity”
(Jean Ziegler, UN independent expert on the right to food Oct 07)

Then read: The Clean Energy Scam

The Clean Energy Scam - TIME

There is too much of discussions that took place on the subject & I do not think here I need to waste everyone's time by quoting them all. Please do some search on google.

b) Governments throughout the world started the initiatives of Biofuel with some pure intention but people have really killed those honest initiatives by taking the opportunity to make money.

Check world famous "Splash & dash scam" that took place in USA:

'Splash and Dash' Biofuel Scam Costs Americans Millions, Lawmakers Say - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum - FOXNews.com

In India, Government pumped good amount of money & efforts for Jatropha. Majority of the money landed with people having vested interest. Have you ever seen/bought a single liter of Jatropha based Biodiesel in last 2-3 years, probability of a "No" is very high as an answer. It was more of an hype created around poor Jatropha which resulted in the following:

The Blunder Crop: a Biofuels Digest special report on jatropha biofuels development : Biofuels Digest - biofuels, biodiesel, ethanol, algae, jatropha, green gasoline, green diesel, and biocrude daily news

Also, when you go for farming, you end up using chemicals (Fertilizers/pesticides etc) to increase your yields/hectare/year to increase your profits. These chemicals end of the day get released to environment in some or other form. You finally get spoiled water bodies, poisoned land, polluted air. Biofuel farming need to protect rather than spoil the environment. But when profit making is ultimate target than everything else becomes secondary & greed start controlling everything.

There are too many scams, billions of dollar being siphoned in the name of subsidies all over the world, millions of hectares being poached by corporates in the name of Biofuel sustainability kind of initiatives.

c) In India, there is no strict guidelines about "Who will do blending & who will carry the liability of blending". By saying this I dont mean that there exist no rules & regulations, they are there but they are not clear. You need to know that only authorized agencies have the legal permissions to blend Biofuel & if you or someone else will do blending at their home, it may in certain cases be called "Adulteration of fuel". Laws are complicated. Check

Government restriction on sale of biodiesel disrupts production - Economy and Politics - livemint.com

To some great extent, govt was right to take such drastic measures as in Pune itself I have seen an outlet selling real junk in the name of Biodiesel. Such criminals make small time money by selling few liters of junk to you but they break very precious trust & hurt/kill your enthusiasm to save/protect earth which in my opinion is very heinous crime.

My sincere advise to all fellow BHPians: Please ensure that when you buy Biofuel, ask the retailer for Specification of the Blended fuel/Blended Biofuel. I called many Biodiesel manufacturer (All big names in India producing Biodiesel) whether they can supply ASTM D 6751 grade Biodiesel & what I heard as a response was a sheepish laugh. There was only one international firm producing Biodiesel in India which claimed confidently that they are really producing quality product. I am not going to post anyone's name in this forum as I am not here to promote/demote anyone

I hope I tried to answer your queries but let me know if I missed something. I am in this domain for many years hence I can talk about this stuff for days but that will not do justice with actual purpose of starting this thread. I will try my best to be as precise as I can & as simple as I can so that everyone can learn a thing or two. I may also make some mistakes about some numbers/facts quoted & everyone is most welcome to correct me without any hesitation if that happens, by my ignorance only.

Regards,
Dharmesh
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Old 4th March 2010, 22:31   #7
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Originally Posted by maddy42 View Post
Could you specify why do is it called blunder crop.

As a guy with land who feels that he wants to cultivate Jatropa is it good for me to invest now and start the cultivation? There is so much land which usually is going uncultivated as Paddy is not much of a cash crop and also is very labor intensive but due to the labor shortage is not being cultivated. Is it worth cultivating this crop?

From a point of view in comparison to Palm oil and Jatropa which one is better in terms of where do you think i would have better sale of the product cultivated. Palm oil has this company which has collecting depots all over the district where weekly collections are made and prices are fixed and doesnt fluctuate. Anything of this sort for Jatropa?
Dear Maddy42, please check my replies to Rehaan, especially the link about Blunder Crop article & come back with your understanding about the subject. In simpler words, would you like to invest your money by buying a car which claimed to give 100 Kms/liter but failed to give 10 Km/liter due to half cooked knowledge of the people who made it. It is not fault of the car but the people who made such abnormal claims without sufficient study.

Jatropha has a gestation period of 3 years so you wont get anything in atleast first 3 years. It is a long subject to discuss, I love Jatropha & will say that people misunderstood this poor baby for no fault of its own.

I will wait for your comments once you are done with my reply to Rehaan in the same thread.

Regards
Dharmesh
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Old 4th March 2010, 23:15   #8
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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
I read that biodiesel needs to be mixed with regular diesel because the engine fuel pumps can't handle it. Can you elaborate further?

since it is biodiesel, I don't agree that it is completely eco friendly. There must something that's paying for either cost of recyling, cost of production or emissions from engines.

I've seen a person at the Auto Expo in Mumbai a few years back demonstrating, albeit with pics the "wonders" of bio diesel. Never knew what happened to him, but it is possible that the someone shut him up. Is there anything that you plan to do different this time?
Hi Otto,

I will answer your queries one by one.

Every engine is designed for a specific fuel. You can not run a Diesel engine with coal powder, right. You would not like to test your diesel cars with petrol, correct. with due respect to your query, all the engine manufactures make engine for a specific fuel or blend of fuels & test them/guarantee them for same specific application. Check my next reply to this thread which will have a PDF document attached to that with name EN14214-explained. Please go through that & you will understand what are the desired parameters & what is the logic behind putting those limits there. Remember, it is not only a quality Biodiesel you need to run your engine, your engine manufacturer also need to certify the engine for a BXXX spec Biodiesel blend where B stands for Biodiesel & XXX may be any number between 0 & 100 (It wil not be 0 for sure else why they will call their car B00 Compatible )

Answer to your 2nd query require a dedicated discussions. Biodiesel does not reduces 100% of the emissions but it definitely reduces more than you can long for. Just to let you know, NOx emissions increases with Biodiesel burning in the engine whereas all other emissions goes down (Biodiesel contains Oxygen whereas Diesel is a Hydrocarbon, means no Oxygen in Diesel) Check my replies given to Rehaan in the same thread & look deeper into negative aspects I mentioned.

I don't know about the "wonder" guy you met in Mumbai expo but I know atleast 200 companies & 500 people who have made awesome claims in last couple of years about Biofuels. It is a subjective matter to comment.

Remember, energy can neither be created nor be destroyed but can be transformed from one form to another only. Conservation of energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you will apply this principle while evaluating any company/person/process, you will get answer to majority of your queries.

Last but not the least, Winners don't do different things, they do things differently

Hope that answered your last query as well.

Regards,
Dharmesh
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Old 4th March 2010, 23:38   #9
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Hello everyone,

Looking at the queries posted by my friends in this Thread, I think instead of explaining all the mumbo jumbo of Biodiesel, I rather post a beautiful document that is in the public domain for years.

Strongly advising to read each & every line of this document & understands what is the purpose of a particular parameter mentioned (Good number of parameters are mentioned in this document to keep you busy for sometime) & what impact it will cause on your diesel engine if that parameter's recommended limit is violated.

I am going to refer fellow BHPians to this document so it will be beneficial that you thoroughly read it, understand it & than only raise further queries related to how Biodiesel will behave in the engine.

Again, subject is very exhaustive & I still try to keep myself updated with new things taking place every single day (We all are flooded with new innovations/researches/findings every day, right) so many things are still being explored/understood.

I also request all to keep patience if in case I fail to reply immediately to your posts. I work on a tight schedule at work (A 9 AM to 6 PM Tribe, you know), have a lovely family waiting for me at home by the end of the day, hence need some time to get back to you all fellow BHPians but be assured that your queries will be answered within 7 days. My normal response time is within 24 hours.

Regards
Dharmesh
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Old 5th March 2010, 00:15   #10
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Highly appreciate this thread and you sharing knowledge in this domain.

Due to my work being associated with organic cultivation and healthcare. I have been following most of the sites you mentioned. Even though I check it for the opposite reasons on how legislation and rules are being changed in different countries with respect to land usage and agriculture changes.

My experience with regulations and seeing bio-diesel work in Western EU, I feel it is just another way of Europeans covering up their guilt and nothing more. They buy the top quality produce food or oil. They can afford it. They do not care about how many acres of lands have gone in to make the litre and what was the Carbon footprint of it being shipped from Brazil or Africa.

The Pandora box of this domain had just opened that Food security was first concern and then ecological and social impacts and its tremors are and will get even worse in near future. Sugar prices going up is just a small teaser. Brazil converted a minuscule amount of farming for ethanol rather than sugar and the world is craving for the sweet stuff. Think how many cups of sweet tea vis a vis miles to a gallon. People talk of permaculture and non sustainable practises just because they do not wish to change their lifestyle.

Agriculture is the biggest Carbon producer in this world. Ploughing a field is as hazardous as burning oil or cutting trees. I align to the fact that biofuels are crime against humanity as feeing the hungry is more important than feeding a car that stands in a gridlock cooling its occupants.

Also the labor laws of India are a joke when it comes to agriculture and un-organized sector, this will never help the poor, will become another land grab situation and fuel social maladies already prevalent in our rural areas.

The way forward to India getting energy secure is trying out alternate fuels. We are blessed with Solar/Wind/Tidal/Thermal/Hydro energy that we need to harness judiciously. Nuclear fission power will make us power hungry and I hope as claimed by few scientists in UK we might get nuclear fusion power to satiate our greed for power. Then maybe we live the space age life style.

I hope my rant made some sense

Cheers!
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Old 5th March 2010, 00:21   #11
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
In a country with food shortage, what is the impact of farmers taking to Jathropa? Diesel is expensive, and fuel will always give more money than food crops. Jathropa can grow in arid lands where crops cannot be grown, but sooner or later when demand gets high you will have good fertile food capable land being converted to jathropa.
Now if we go the Brazil way i.e. 10% of diesel is biodiesel, how much arable land will be converted in your opinion? You must be aware of yields per hectare, and a rough calculation can reveal how much % of arable land would need to be dedicated to Jathropa?
Dear TSK1979,

I would like to correct some facts presumed:-

1.) Food Shortage Sorry, I beg to differ here. India is not facing food shortage rather story is very different painfully.

Check this one: India's food processing industry: An IndiaOneStop.Com Report

Without a strong and dependable cold chain vital sector like food processing industry which is based mostly on perishable products cannot survive and grow. Even at current level of production, farm produce valued at Rs 70,000 million is being wasted every year only because there is no adequate storage, transportation, cold chain facilities and other infrastructure supports. Cold chain facilities are miserably inadequate to meet the increasing production of various perishable products like milk, fruits, vegetables, poultry, fisheries etc.


& this: No recession, one lakh mt tonne wheat wasted by FCI

Kindly do some more Google search on the subject about how much food got wasted in India every year.

2.) Diesel is expensive I must say , I can see that you are a proud owner of Diesel SUV, right. well my dear friend, India sells heavily subsidized diesel as compared to rest of the world (Exclude countries who get more Crude oil than water when they dig bores in their land). I will share the Costing breakup of Diesel sold in India (available in open domain if you search) & you will realize how lucky we are. Just to give you an example, diesel is around 55-60 INR/Liter in certain countries of Africa. Scenario is also bad in majority of the places where no subsidies exist. Yes there are exceptions like Malaysia where I lived & enjoyed Petrol at 22 Rs/Liter or less but they are exporter of fossil fuel whereas you can check the import numbers of India I just posted in a reply to Rehaan today itself. Biodiesel being compared with Fossil Diesel in India is totally unfair as it is impossible anywhere in the world for any product to compete with a subsidized competitor.

3.) Jathropa can grow in arid lands where crops cannot be grown That is a presumption & facts are far different than your presumption. Check my replies to Rehaan, explore Jatropha - The Bunder .... weblink. Come back & we can discuss more on subject for some 10 hours without a break.

Yes TSK, your approach is very nice but I need to update all my friends more about Jatropha. That is a herculean task as some basic understanding of Jatropha is expected but no worries, I will post some good stuff soon, may be by this weekend itself. Just to give you some hint, Jatropha seeds are poisonous. I suggest you & rest of the friends to read the document posted by Chemical Safety Information from Intergovernmental Organizations on Jatropha curcas L. (PIM 570)

Please run through that weblink & come back.

4.) Jatropha yield & land requirements Uttar Pradesh goverment has initiated a dedicated mission towards Jetropha (They call it jetropha not jatropha ) & have a nice website Jetropha Mission, Uttar Pradesh

Open this weblink & explore Document button. you can also go to New Page 1 directly.

Complete the review of all the documents/presentation/tecno-commercial workout they have posted (Must say a thorough homework done by them on Jetropha) & come back for discussions again.

Hope that I reverted back to all your queries.

Regards,
Dharmesh

PS: Maddy42, kindly suggesting you also to read Uttar Pradesh weblink thoroughly as you are serious to explore Jatropha option for your land cultivation purpose.
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Old 5th March 2010, 01:26   #12
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Originally Posted by Sn1p3r View Post
Highly appreciate this thread and you sharing knowledge in this domain.

Due to my work being associated with organic cultivation and healthcare. I have been following most of the sites you mentioned. Even though I check it for the opposite reasons on how legislation and rules are being changed in different countries with respect to land usage and agriculture changes.

My experience with regulations and seeing bio-diesel work in Western EU, I feel it is just another way of Europeans covering up their guilt and nothing more. They buy the top quality produce food or oil. They can afford it. They do not care about how many acres of lands have gone in to make the litre and what was the Carbon footprint of it being shipped from Brazil or Africa.

The Pandora box of this domain had just opened that Food security was first concern and then ecological and social impacts and its tremors are and will get even worse in near future. Sugar prices going up is just a small teaser. Brazil converted a minuscule amount of farming for ethanol rather than sugar and the world is craving for the sweet stuff. Think how many cups of sweet tea vis a vis miles to a gallon. People talk of permaculture and non sustainable practises just because they do not wish to change their lifestyle.

Agriculture is the biggest Carbon producer in this world. Ploughing a field is as hazardous as burning oil or cutting trees. I align to the fact that biofuels are crime against humanity as feeing the hungry is more important than feeding a car that stands in a gridlock cooling its occupants.

Also the labor laws of India are a joke when it comes to agriculture and un-organized sector, this will never help the poor, will become another land grab situation and fuel social maladies already prevalent in our rural areas.

The way forward to India getting energy secure is trying out alternate fuels. We are blessed with Solar/Wind/Tidal/Thermal/Hydro energy that we need to harness judiciously. Nuclear fission power will make us power hungry and I hope as claimed by few scientists in UK we might get nuclear fusion power to satiate our greed for power. Then maybe we live the space age life style.

I hope my rant made some sense

Cheers!
Dear Sn1p3r,

with due respect to your feelings/assumptions/estimates, I completely disagree with almost all of them. I strongly suggest to provide precise numbers/article links/acceptable references for statements being made casually. Though I have already stated that I myself have limited knowledge but after spending so many years in this industry, I do not need to open my books to dispose some unacceptable vague claims. I am in no mood to berate anyone & not present here to smear anyone.

Let us discuss statements one by one in a positive & constructive way:-

How much you have studied EU's policies & reason for certain changes they brought into the picture wrt to Biofuels ? Do you have any idea about the suffering of Biodiesel producers based in Europe due to "Splash & Dash" scam. Please do some google search on the subject & come back with some substantial backup so that everyone here can get enlightened.

"European buy top quality produce food or oil" is not applicable for Biofuels as mandates are almost same for everyone, & you need to remember that they do face sub-zero climates for many months hence their fuel/vehicles need to face sever climatic conditions compared to what we handle here. It is not a matter of availability of a good product, it is a matter of "Are you willing to spend that extra buck". Just check about the safety features a TATA Nano that will sell in US/EU will carry & compare it with indian version. They are willing to pay for that. They do pay 40% taxes but than they do enjoy Social security. Comparing them or blaming them with our situation without proper statistics is not going to solve the purpose. Before getting your Driving license, how much hours you spend to learn the rules/regulations of the road with an authorized Training school. Please give all these aspects a thought.

They do not care about how many acres of lands have gone in to make the litre and what was the Carbon footprint of it being shipped from Brazil or Africa. for God sake, please go & check Sustainability clause implemented/proposed by them for Biofuel. You can not ship any Biofuel to EU unless you know your numbers. Kindly do some more research.

Food Security comes into picture when people have sufficient means to earn money or access to fertile land so that they can grow something. Check why so many farmers committed suicide in Vidharbha region even though govt spent so much money on so called tax reliefs.

Agriculture is the biggest Carbon producer in this world. Ploughing a field is as hazardous as burning oil or cutting trees. I align to the fact that biofuels are crime against humanity as feeing the hungry is more important than feeding a car that stands in a gridlock cooling its occupants. There is a dedicated subject called "LCA" which means Life Cycle Assesment. Hope you are aware of it & if not than read this full document
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24089.pdf

This will definitely enlighten you more about carbon balance of Biofuels. I have done a complete project on Life Cycle Assessment & subject is not something I can taught in a blog or forum so suggest to do more web search. Please read more & come back with specific allocated carbon excesses that you observe wrt Agriculture.

We are blessed with Solar/Wind/Tidal/Thermal/Hydro energy India is not special in terms of these blessing being showered because we have thousands of Gods being worshiped everyday. Suggesting you to read about Levelised energy cost Levelised energy cost - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Levelised energy costs for different generation technologies in AUSDollar 2006

Technology Cost (AUD/MWh)
Nuclear (to COTS plan)[3] 40–70
Nuclear (to suit site; typical)[3] 75–105
Coal 28–38
Coal: IGCC + CCS 53–98
Coal: supercritical pulverised + CCS 64–106
Open-cycle Gas Turbine 101
Hot fractured rocks 89
Gas: combined cycle 37–54
Gas: combined cycle + CCS 53–93
Small Hydro power 55
Wind power: high capacity factor 75
Solar thermal 85
Biomass 88
Photovoltaics 120

This will give you an idea about why Alternate energy is still a pain to harness.

Sn1p3r & all fellow BHPians: I am here to share my knowledge on a friendly basis & do not want to get into any kind of argument with anyone unless the person come with proper stats/backup references/good homework. Now onward I will not revert to any vague thread/statement as I do not want to change the way people think & approach some serious issues. Blaming others is what we have always been fond of but that does not solve the ultimate problems & purposes. With this, I end last post for this extended day

Regards
Dharmesh

PS: One of the interesting small stats based article as some more food for thought just for you attached below.





The real causes of hunger

The United Nations Development Programme says the effects of globalisation and increasing economic integration have led to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in nearly every way.

UN statistics provide evidence of the widening gap between rich and poor: In nine years, the income ratio between the top 20% and the bottom 20% has increased from 60:1 to 74:1. Eighty countries have less revenue than they did a decade ago. The assets of the 200 richest people exceed the combined income of 41% of the world's total population. The assets of the top three billionaires are more than the combined GNP of all least developed countries and their 600 million people. The overall consumption of the richest fifth of the world's people is 16 times that of the poorest fifth. About 840 million people are malnourished. Nearly 340 million women are not expected to survive to age 40. Nearly 160 million children are malnourished. More than 250 million children are working as child labourers.
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Old 5th March 2010, 01:56   #13
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The whole idea of "peak oil" is a myth spread by the oil marketing companies and the oil speculators. As per the peak oil theory the world has of now has already reached the maximum fuel level it can extract, it wud be all downhill from here.
A very convinient myth which can be used to create panic and thereby help speculators raise the price for each barrel of crude. This is exactly what happened in 2008/09 when the speculative markets pushed the price of oil all the way upto 147$ per barrel, and then the crash which took it to almost 30$ per barrel.
In the process the commodity traders made a killing. Almost all of Alaskan oil, a large portion of Russian and Siberian oil findings, shale oil on US and Canadian west coasts, deposits on the African coasts etc have not been drilled on commercial basis as of now, just because its cheaper to drill oil from the Arabian coasts.
Oil would certianly not run out in the next 10-20-50 years as the panic creators have been speculating.
A US govt finding analysed that if the speculators would be forced to take actual delivery of each barrel, then the price of crude would nose dive
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Old 5th March 2010, 21:02   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
The whole idea of "peak oil" is a myth spread by the oil marketing companies and the oil speculators. As per the peak oil theory the world has of now has already reached the maximum fuel level it can extract, it wud be all downhill from here.
A very convinient myth which can be used to create panic and thereby help speculators raise the price for each barrel of crude. This is exactly what happened in 2008/09 when the speculative markets pushed the price of oil all the way upto 147$ per barrel, and then the crash which took it to almost 30$ per barrel.
In the process the commodity traders made a killing. Almost all of Alaskan oil, a large portion of Russian and Siberian oil findings, shale oil on US and Canadian west coasts, deposits on the African coasts etc have not been drilled on commercial basis as of now, just because its cheaper to drill oil from the Arabian coasts.
Oil would certianly not run out in the next 10-20-50 years as the panic creators have been speculating.
A US govt finding analysed that if the speculators would be forced to take actual delivery of each barrel, then the price of crude would nose dive
Dear apachelongbow,

Have a thorough look at this 2 dimensional plot attached at the bottom of the reply (reproduced under GNU Free document). This bell shaped curve, if you don't know in case, is known as "Hubbert's peak". I already posted the weblink for Peak Oil (wikipedia) in my replies earlier in the same thread.

M. King Hubbert created and first used the models behind peak oil in 1956 to accurately predict that United States oil production would peak between 1965 and 1970.[1] His logistic model, now called Hubbert peak theory, and its variants have described with reasonable accuracy the peak and decline of production from oil wells, fields, regions, and countries,[2] and has also proved useful in other limited-resource production-domains. According to the Hubbert model, the production rate of a limited resource will follow a roughly symmetrical bell-shaped curve based on the limits of exploitability and market pressures. Various modified versions of his original logistic model are used, using more complex functions to allow for real world factors. While each version is applied to a specific domain, the central features of the Hubbert curve (that production stops rising and then declines) remain unchanged, albeit with different profiles.

This curve as can be seen is predicted decades back. It has been remodeled by many statistics expert/mathematical experts/scientist world over but basic stuff stays same. The trend clearly shows sufficient oil for atleast couple of decades, right.

For kind info, M. King Hubbert who made this model completed his studies in University of Chicago & taught at Colombia University/Stanford University & University of Berkeley. Beside these teaching things, he served as an expert in many boards/companies. For details, refer M. King Hubbert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now if you feel that a person with this level of credentials in his pocket talked vague stuff & promoted some stupid myths, sorry, I will prefer to end the further discussion on this topic with you here itself showing my sincere respect to this brilliant person who is no more.

For rest of the fellow friends who really want to learn more about Peak Oil, I suggest to first go through the wikipedia link followed by What You Need to Know about Peak Oil - OmniNerd & still if you have time left with you than enjoy reading further.

Sometime I am impressed with what majority of people around think about Oil industry. Yes, there are lobbies everywhere but not to the extent that one start thinking that oil industry is a gang of criminals in a smoky room always busy with batting on oil prices, playing with numbers & crunching dollars. Every time oil prices jump upward, people start feeling like they have been taken for a ride. I disagree with this to good extent

There are few very good books for "Fossil fuel for Dummies" kind:

First the kindergarten stuff, like a basic course:

1.) Oil on the Brain: Petroleum's Long, Strange Trip to Your Tank by Lisa Margonelli

Now move to next level:

2.) Crude World: The Violent Twilight of Oil by Peter Maass

& than complete the graduation with the best work so far I have seen:

3.) Oil 101 by Morgan Downey

Finish them & than subject of Peak Oil can be discussed more elaborately.

If someone still want to feed more to his brain with a classy story told by Matt Simmons than refer to Twilight in the Desert. A good book but not perfect one in all details.

Now, quoting back apachelongbow's statement "This is exactly what happened in 2008/09 when the speculative markets pushed the price of oil all the way upto 147$ per barrel, and then the crash which took it to almost 30$ per barrel. "

Everything was awesome for the world till 2008 when 2nd deep depression kind of economic earth quack struck. It was not just prices of oil that crashed but whole world crashed all of a sudden. Instead of putting fingures to oil, one need to evaluate the subject rationally

Thanks to all & wishing a great weekend.

Hope to hear some more interesting stuff from all my fellow BHPians here. It is always great to do brainstorming as it definitely improve our intellectual level to a good extent.

Regards
Dharmesh
Attached Thumbnails
Biofuels : Explained & explored. Must read for Biodiesel admirers-2000pxhubbert_peak_oil_plot.svg.png  

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Old 5th March 2010, 21:57   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
The whole idea of "peak oil" is a myth spread by the oil marketing companies and the oil speculators.
I strongly disagree with you on this one. A simple logic. Oil is limited. Oil production is increasing. Oil production has to become 0. Which means oil production has to decrease until it becomes 0. If something is increasing, but then it starts decreasing, then it has to have a maximum value. That 'maximum value' is your peak oil point.
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