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Old 20th May 2011, 19:32   #31
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

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Originally Posted by kaush666 View Post
Brake fluid is not the culprit here. I don't suspect booster as well since braking at high speeds is simply astounding to say the least. Still, I shall have it replaced under warranty. Will not stop until this problem is solved. There should be a solution. Otherwise court is the way to go. This is life threatening. During a panic situation one will definitely not have the mind to press the accelerator. Everyone will look to brake in a panic situation rather than hitting the accelerator and trying to avoid the object/person ahead. I am planning to sue Fiat if there is no permanent solution to this.

I have had damage to the body because of the poor brakes and Concorde hasn't agreed to repaint the portion. They want me to pay for the damages. I have no problem in paying but they should at least accept the fact that the brakes have a problem. Two test drivers drove the vehicle and they say its PERFECT! I am not the only one with the same complaint. A couple of other friends who drove the vehicle immediately pulled over and gave the vehicle back and the commented that it was terrifying. Also I am not the only one facing this issue. Even @iamcarnovice has had this issue for the past year I guess and all they have provided is a workaround rather than a proper solution. Too bad from FIAT.

Cheers,
Kaushik
You were able to send an email to Mangesh and his team?
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Old 20th May 2011, 20:18   #32
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

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Originally Posted by Minardi View Post
My dad has a Punto 1.2 active for almost one year now. Till now no complaints, but now we are taking it on a long trip (1500 km). Am a bit scared after reading all this.
I think it will be safe to take the vehicle on the highway as the issue is only at slow speeds and there is no issue what so ever with stopping power at high speeds. I may have also found an explanation as to why this issue is caused. Was browsing around in the internet regarding this issue and there was a review in Carwale.com. There was a comment to the review regarding the lousy brakes. Here is what the comment says:

"KC on 25 Apr, 2011 at 02:45 PM
hope u r not pressing the brakes when the clutch is fully released at very low speeds in high gears, like your speed is 10km in 3rd gear. This happens because the car automatically maintains minimum speed at different gears, i.e. in 1st gear - 10 kms, 2nd gear 15 kmpl.
So at low speed, where you are in 2nd gear and the speed falls below 10 without clutch being depressed, the car will automatically accelerate to its minimum speed to prevent car from stalling. This gives an illusion that the brakes are non functional, since automatic acceleration and brakes are applied at the same time.
You will notice that this happens only when the speed is low and not on high speeds and more when the a/c is on, which requires more accelertaion to prevent stalling.
This is not a problem, you need to understand and depress the clutch, if the speed is low at high gears and then press brakes. When you feel that the brakes are non functional, immediately depress the clutch, while braking and this needs to be quick.
Also Fiat engines takes more time than normal to get used to it, if you have not used fiat cars earlier. in that way maruti cars are the simplest to drive."


Now I suspected it at first but then I decided to take my ride out on a deserted street and test it. Mind you Concorde still hasn't taken my vehicle from me! In first gear it automatically chugs along at 10kph without any throttle input after releasing clutch. Engage second and it moves to 15-20 kph and in 3rd even further. I braked in 3rd gear and brakes became rigid at around 15 kph which is the minimum speed for the 2nd gear. So engine design is the culprit I guess.

But that doesn't give room for the dealership to escape away as they are not aware of this and they have not agreed to take care of any of the damages caused due to their product. They also don't accept that there is an issue with the product. Also I read somewhere else that this is not the case with diesel Puntos. Why is that so? Can anyone care to explain?


Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
You were able to send an email to Mangesh and his team?
I am sorry but I don't know who Mangesh is. I suppose he is the Team Lead of Fiat for Concorde? Also I would like to have the email address of Fiat India customer care. It is not available on their website and their grievance box is of no use. It is dysfunctional.

Any help would be appreciated.

Source of comment: http://www.carwale.com/research/fiat...ews/27846.html

Cheers,
Kaushik

Last edited by kaush666 : 20th May 2011 at 20:20.
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Old 20th May 2011, 20:39   #33
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaush666 View Post
In first gear it automatically chugs along at 10kph without any throttle input after releasing clutch. Engage second and it moves to 15-20 kph and in 3rd even further. I braked in 3rd gear and brakes became rigid at around 15 kph which is the minimum speed for the 2nd gear. So engine design is the culprit I guess.
Hey guys, This is a normal feature in any modern ECM car, not necessarily the Puntos.. I've got 2 Puntos MJD EP [a BS3 and a BS4] and have not faced the problem stated here, infact the brakes are SUPERB.

You are welcome to PM me if your brake problem is not resolved as yet. Lets see how i can help.

Cheers
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Old 20th May 2011, 20:45   #34
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

Please excuse me for this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaush666 View Post
I am sorry but I don't know who Mangesh is
Mangesh Kodalkar is the customer services manager of Fiat India Limited. From my personal experience, I can vouch for the fact that he'll help you to get rid off this issue.
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Old 20th May 2011, 20:50   #35
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Thumbs down Re: Punto Active brake issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Hey guys, This is a normal feature in any modern ECM car, not necessarily the Puntos.. I've got 2 Puntos MJD EP [a BS3 and a BS4] and have not faced the problem stated here, infact the brakes are SUPERB.

You are welcome to PM me if your brake problem is not resolved as yet. Lets see how i can help.

Cheers
The car chugging along without throttle input may be a modern ECM feature. But in other cars while its chugging along if you hit the brakes the car halts and stalls almost immediately at low speeds. My Punto on the other hand fights against the brakes and the brakes go rigid and the vehicle keeps moving. That's the problem here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klub Class View Post
Please excuse me for this post.



Mangesh Kodalkar is the customer services manager of Fiat India Limited. From my personal experience, I can vouch for the fact that he'll help you to get rid off this issue.
If possible can you PM me his email address please. I have no contact details of Fiat yet. I called their toll free helpline and all the guy could do was ask me to take the car to the service center. I am not even sure he understood what I spoke. A big thumbs down to Fiat customer support.
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Old 20th May 2011, 20:57   #36
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

I will say this is not a problem but a design and instead of happily using clutch hundreds of times in slow traffic this features is extremely well thought of .

My view is need to adjust to this technology.
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Old 20th May 2011, 21:07   #37
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

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Originally Posted by kaush666 View Post
If possible can you PM me his email address please.
Well. I believe that any information shared here must be visible to everyone including guests and non-T-BHPians. Thus, I opted against PM'ing you the e-mail addresses.

So, here is the entire contact list of the Fiat officials,(sourced from the Team Fiat India forum) :

Note : Please replace "at" to @ and "dot" to .
  • customercare "at" tatamotors "dot" com
  • service "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • ceodesk "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • rajeev.kapoor "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • Mangesh.Kodalkar "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • Ricky.Walter "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • ravi.bhatia "at" fiapl "dot" com (VP FIAT INDIA)
  • Ranjit.Pawar "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • Tarun.Khanna "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • narendra.sharma "at" fiapl "dot" com (Brand Manager for PUNTO)
  • Pawan.Yadav "at" fiapl "dot" com (Accessories and Merchandize)
  • partshelpindia "at" fiapl "dot" com (FIAT parts help India- group email ID)
  • anand.kumar "at" fiapl "dot" com (DGM Commercial)
  • govardhan.pai "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • amit.shrivastava "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • Aashish.Bhardwaj "at" fiapl "dot" com (Product Manager – Linea)

For parts or related queries :-
  • Ajay.Bhatnagar "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • Deepak.Wagh "at" fiapl "dot" com
  • Sudhir.Bansal "at" fiapl "dot" com

Head – Corporate Communications

Marius D’lima
marius.dlima "at" fiapl "dot" com
Tel : +91 98201 29889

Fiat Ranjangaon Factory Contact Numbers

Tel: +91 - 02138 - 672700 / 232144 / 5 / 6 / 7
Fax: +91 - 02138 - 232143

Fiat Mumbai Office

Tel: +91 - 022- 67293800

Last edited by Klub Class : 20th May 2011 at 21:13.
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Old 20th May 2011, 21:18   #38
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

This problem is most probably due to the faulty boost generation by the brake booster or some sort of choking or something like that from dynamo to booster. My wild guess is due to the fact that the pedal hardens.

This thing is not as simple as to warrant a reply like " it happens sometimes". Fiat India didnt learn, it seems.
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Old 21st May 2011, 06:17   #39
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaush666 View Post
The car chugging along without throttle input may be a modern ECM feature. But in other cars while its chugging along if you hit the brakes the car halts and stalls almost immediately at low speeds. My Punto on the other hand fights against the brakes and the brakes go rigid and the vehicle keeps moving. That's the problem here.
Can you describe your problem in detail - Is it the brakes going hard or the engine not stalling at crawling speeds?

Or,

Are you claiming your brakes fail and the vehicle keeps chugging along? What speeds? What RPM? Does Handbrake work?
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Old 21st May 2011, 07:08   #40
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

I dont think the ECM actually prevents stalling to such an effect that it will effect braking. I have never faced this issue in our 1.4EP.

Though I cant say I have actually tried it, but as for the fact that the car moves even at idle speeds, I can say that it does. This is an anti stall feature. The idle speed is kept high enough to not require throttle at idle to start moving. But on braking this high set idle will give way and you will come to a dead stop.

But after braking if you let the brakes go the engine will reaccelerate to its high idle, and if you havent depressed the clutch will start moving.

If this is the only issue you are facing, the people from Concorde are correct and your car is fine. You have to get used to pressing the clutch so as to prevent the antistall from getting the car moving again. Pressing the clutch while braking when coming to a dead stop is always the right way to go, even if you are already in 1st gear.
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Old 21st May 2011, 08:36   #41
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Thumbs down Re: Punto Active brake issue

Thanks a lot Klub Class. Would be of much help to me and many others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Can you describe your problem in detail - Is it the brakes going hard or the engine not stalling at crawling speeds?

Or,

Are you claiming your brakes fail and the vehicle keeps chugging along? What speeds? What RPM? Does Handbrake work?
Exactly. What I am saying is that my brakes fail and the vehicle keeps chugging along. Say I am in 3rd gear doing 35-40 kph, but then I have to hit the brakes since someone in front of me stops. That brings the car's speed to around 25 kph and since traffic starts moving again I accelerate to 30kph again without using the clutch at all since traffic is moving pretty continuously. However, when I press the brakes once I reach 30 kph the brakes go hard and there is no bite or rather response from them. The RPM range during this action would be somewhere between 1500 and 2700. It occurs only in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears which would mean low speeds.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Oh and yes the handbrake does work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
I dont think the ECM actually prevents stalling to such an effect that it will effect braking. I have never faced this issue in our 1.4EP.

Though I cant say I have actually tried it, but as for the fact that the car moves even at idle speeds, I can say that it does. This is an anti stall feature. The idle speed is kept high enough to not require throttle at idle to start moving. But on braking this high set idle will give way and you will come to a dead stop.

But after braking if you let the brakes go the engine will reaccelerate to its high idle, and if you havent depressed the clutch will start moving.

If this is the only issue you are facing, the people from Concorde are correct and your car is fine. You have to get used to pressing the clutch so as to prevent the antistall from getting the car moving again. Pressing the clutch while braking when coming to a dead stop is always the right way to go, even if you are already in 1st gear.
The ECM doesn't affect stalling in such a way that it affects braking. Let me illustrate this for you. Say I am in 2nd gear doing 20 kph. I hit the brakes and come to 10 kph and press the clutch so that the vehicle doesn't stall. Then after releasing the clutch I come to 15 kph and when I hit the brakes again it hardens. When I press the brakes all at once it stalls at times and some times the brake just goes rigid. The problem I am facing would be in like B2B conditions. Hence, I am worried.

OT: No response from Concorde Motors here despite repeated calls.

EDIT: A mistake in my earlier post. It was due to the twice braking action that caused the brakes to go rigid. It was not the engine stalling feature that caused it I guess.

Last edited by kaush666 : 21st May 2011 at 08:51.
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Old 21st May 2011, 09:46   #42
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

You mean to say, only after you have braked a few times consecutively, or after a hard braking move?? Do you ever face the problem when you brake for the first time in the day?? Does the rigidity go away after some time after you experience it, or it remains for a very long time??

Because as of now the intermittent nature of the brake hardening, it still seems to me like a hydraulics issue. The hydraulics seem to have some issue with your particular driving style and thus the guys from Concorde are not able to diagnose the problem.
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Old 21st May 2011, 10:09   #43
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

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You mean to say, only after you have braked a few times consecutively, or after a hard braking move?? Do you ever face the problem when you brake for the first time in the day?? Does the rigidity go away after some time after you experience it, or it remains for a very long time??

Because as of now the intermittent nature of the brake hardening, it still seems to me like a hydraulics issue. The hydraulics seem to have some issue with your particular driving style and thus the guys from Concorde are not able to diagnose the problem.
Might be cos of my driving style. The problem doesn't come when I brake the first time in the day. I think it is something to do with my braking style or rather driving style. It occurs at low speeds in B2B traffic. I've driven so many cars and none have had a problem like this. Another couple of friends who have 3-4 brands in their garages faced this issue while driving my car. So it isn't my driving style alone I suppose. Dunno lets see.
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Old 21st May 2011, 10:40   #44
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

The Punto has a vacuum assisted servo brake. This is overtly sensitive compared to other cars. Maybe you are running out of vacuum due to your driving style? If this happens then the braking will be harder than normal.

Try using the brakes [actually keeping your foot on the brakes] only when needed.
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Old 21st May 2011, 13:10   #45
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Default Re: Punto Active brake issue

Yes, I still think the problem has something to do with driving style only, especially due to its intermittent nature. Try and remember or may be even note down what happened before each time you faced this issue, may be you will notice a pattern. That may help the service people to point out your exact issue, if any.

OT: My previous post about idle speeds and anti-stalling reminded me of another small feature of the Punto, dont know if its there in other modern cars too. But like I said, Punto has a slightly high idle speed to prevent stalling when starting from rest. But if you are stationary for quite some time with the engine on, the idle speed drops after some time to conserve fuel. In the 1.4Punto, the normal idle speed is 1200rpm. But if you are stationary for some time at idle, the idle speed drops to 800rpm. But once you depress the clutch it again jumps back to 1200rpm to prevent stalling.
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