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Old 16th April 2017, 11:51   #121
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

Ok, here's something that just struck me which MAY be the cause of a starter overheating. Does the starter disengage from the flywheel once the engine fires up? If it remains engaged the the motor will heat up very quickly indeed and the bearings will be destroyed spinning at several times the engine speed.
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Old 16th April 2017, 18:19   #122
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Ok, here's something that just struck me which MAY be the cause of a starter overheating. Does the starter disengage from the flywheel once the engine fires up? If it remains engaged the the motor will heat up very quickly indeed and the bearings will be destroyed spinning at several times the engine speed.
It's not yet confirmed that the starter is overheating and causing the issue. But since the soleinoid is working fine, i believe the starter motor will get disengaged. Anyway, this need to be checked. Thanks for the light.

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Originally Posted by tanwaramit View Post
Finally, one of their electrician found the issue as my battery losing juice due to parasitic drain.
Do keep us posted.
Checked for the parasitic drain and couldn't find anything positive. With the autocop security system in place, a got the reading of 10milliamps. As per the videos and guides on parasitic drain, 10ma is fine. Anyway, upon disconnection, reading went to 0. Anyway, kept it disconnected for the time being for analysis.

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
It definitely is a starter problem, sometimes starter misbehaves and sometimes it works. It seems placement of starter in hyundai santro is next to a heat source like exhaust or some other heat aberration and due to this reason the starter is misbehaving when the heat gets high. Even if you change the parts on the starter it will continue to misbehave.

Either get a brand new starter. Or change location of starter to someplace less susceptible to heat.
http://www.partsbigboss.in/starter-a...26925283d.html
if it is the case, this should be happening for all santros. But i have friends using santros without any such issues. Except a full starter motor assembly, individual components was changed in my case.

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
If I were the person affected with this, I would have started with 2 things.

1. Replace starter with brand new one.

2. Change transmission oil, in hope that the new oil conducts heat much better than old one.

the poster has mentioned that par of his floor just ahead of the gear box is getting abnormally hot. That is the reason for his starter jamming as well. When he finds out cause of this abnormal heat, maybe starter will start to work fine again

else even with new starter the problem may reappear in few months.

also if floor board is getting hot abnormally, check your catalytic converter for leaks, or exhaust pipe having developed leak. Or catcon is jammed etc. This heat also may cause starter to jam esp if location of starter is next to cat con.
Armature and brushes were changed 5 months ago. Soleinoid was changed a year ago as well (Soleinoid was not engaging properly, so the ASC changed it). Exhaust pipe (From catalytic converter out to tail) was replaced around 6 months ago. Engine oil was also changed 6 months ago. Only things left to change is brand new starter and brand new battery. But without identifying the actual problem, it doesn't make sense to replace.

Please note that the floor board is not getting heated. Its the red circled area in the image. Whether the A/c is on or off, that area heats up. If A/c is on, it heats up pretty fast.

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
If you are on friendly terms with the ASC, try getting a loan starter to use for a couple of days. Otherwise you will have to run down esoteric problems like

a) Check out the connections between solenoid and field coils, and field coils and brush plate. The if connection is with rivets, esp. Aluminium ones, expect weird problems.

b) When exactly the pinion meshes with the ring gear, in relation with the armature being energised.

Assuming that you have tried all possible combinations of batteries, and the problem remained.

Regards
Sutripta
Thanks for the advice. I am trying to to loan a battery as well as starter one by one.

In response to point (a), connections are not rivets, they are tightened with Nuts. Will instruct themechanic to check the point (b)

Last edited by ajmat : 16th April 2017 at 19:34.
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Old 17th April 2017, 21:09   #123
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Does the starter disengage from the flywheel once the engine fires up? If it remains engaged the the motor will heat up very quickly indeed and the bearings will be destroyed spinning at several times the engine speed.
A starter pinion engaged while the engine is running (when it is designed to be disengaged) will result in the destruction (demolition might be a better word) of the starter in minutes, if not seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sujithsidhardha View Post
Thanks for the advice. I am trying to to loan a battery as well as starter one by one.

In response to point (a), connections are not rivets, they are tightened with Nuts. Will instruct themechanic to check the point (b)
Internal connections are normally rivets. Surprised that these are nuts/ bolts in this case. However the main point I'd like to emphasise is that the two points mentioned (amongst others) are esoteric. And I'd say beyond the capability of normal ASC/ FNGs to do anything about. Even if they understand what you are talking about. Leave these for the nerds and R&D depts.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 17th April 2017, 21:45   #124
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
A starter pinion engaged while the engine is running (when it is designed to be disengaged) will result in the destruction (demolition might be a better word) of the starter in minutes, if not seconds.
Immediate destruction? Not really if I recall my experience with the family Premier Padmini back in the '80s. It went on for several (5-6 odd) kilometers within the city before the 'whine' from the tortured motor became audible and I stopped the car. The motor was well and truly messed up and we chose to install a new one.

The mechanic advised us that some old starters have a sticky pinion gear that does not release from the flywheel. Apparently the one in our car had this problem on and off till that day it chose not to disengage at all and destroyed itself in the process.

Last edited by R2D2 : 17th April 2017 at 21:47.
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Old 17th April 2017, 22:39   #125
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

Ok one more idea.

Kindly check what exactly lies just underneath the small area in floorboard getting hot.

Also change wiring from batteries to starter and replace by thicker heavier gauge wires that carry current cooler. Sometimes old wiring gets corroded and generates lot of heat. Amd this heat and resistance and resulting inadequate supply may also choke the starter.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:02   #126
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
A starter pinion engaged while the engine is running (when it is designed to be disengaged) will result in the destruction (demolition might be a better word) of the starter in minutes, if not seconds.

Internal connections are normally rivets. Surprised that these are nuts/ bolts in this case. However the main point I'd like to emphasise is that the two points mentioned (amongst others) are esoteric. And I'd say beyond the capability of normal ASC/ FNGs to do anything about. Even if they understand what you are talking about. Leave these for the nerds and R&D depts.

Regards
Sutripta
Sorry. I thought about the external connections. Not sure about the internal connections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
Ok one more idea.

Kindly check what exactly lies just underneath the small area in floorboard getting hot.

Also change wiring from batteries to starter and replace by thicker heavier gauge wires that carry current cooler. Sometimes old wiring gets corroded and generates lot of heat. Amd this heat and resistance and resulting inadequate supply may also choke the starter.
As i mentioned earlier, heat is not coming from the floor bed, under area of the box shaped part is getting heated up. On close inspection, i could find a pipe from the engine bay connected to the marked area. There was heat earlier also on long drives, but not like this much on shorter distances. After changing the coolant temperature switch, there is a noticable reduction in heat. But the starting issue still exist

Battery cable was changed 2 years ago at Hyundai ASC.

It seems heat is causing the issue. But need to identify the part malfunctioning. I don't thing any point in blind replacement of parts.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:09   #127
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

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Originally Posted by balenoed_ View Post
Bringing this thread back live.

I kind of sensing that my Baleno (2004) model is having this issue. It has not become very severe yet. But I have seen that it doesn’t start in the first few tries after running hot for a while. Like, when I stop for a petrol, tea break after long drives.
It starts after few tries though. I have not seen this problem before. It just starts in the first try when it is cold.

I have read all the posts here and other threads and it seems that all discussions are around:-

- Battery
- Battery terminal
- Starter Motor
- Ignition Coil

I am about to start investigation by picking up one by one. Does anyone want to shed some light on why the above 4 items malfunctions when it the Engine has run for a while. Why not they behave the same way when it is cold?
Back here with some update. I did the first thing, i.e- to replace the battery. And it seems to have solved the problem, as I did not see the issue during the long drives that I did in the past couple of weeks.

The battery was 6 years old, but did not give any other symptoms, except this issue with hot start. Since it was quite old, and an easiest option, went ahead in replacing. Many times I stopped en route my drives, to see if the problem existed, and I never saw it happening. The car always started in the first crank unlike how it was earlier.

So I hope that was the cause of it, at least so-far. May be it is just a coincidence, hence will wait for a while and seen it the same issue pops up. Will update here if I have anything.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:24   #128
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

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Originally Posted by balenoed_ View Post
Back here with some update. I did the first thing, i.e- to replace the battery. And it seems to have solved the problem, as I did not see the issue during the long drives that I did in the past couple of weeks.

The battery was 6 years old, but did not give any other symptoms, except this issue with hot start. Since it was quite old, and an easiest option, went ahead in replacing. Many times I stopped en route my drives, to see if the problem existed, and I never saw it happening. The car always started in the first crank unlike how it was earlier.

So I hope that was the cause of it, at least so-far. May be it is just a coincidence, hence will wait for a while and seen it the same issue pops up. Will update here if I have anything.
. Glad to hear that your issue is sorted out with a change in battery. Being in the same boat, i can understand the situation and lets hope it's over and never come back. 6 year seems, it gave you it best and its time for a replacement.

Anyway, i have ordered a specific gravity checker through ebay and expected to be delivered in 4-5 days. I am planning to check the specific gravity both in cold and hot conditions. If i find any cell weak, i am going to change the battery as well.
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Old 18th April 2017, 15:50   #129
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

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Originally Posted by sujithsidhardha View Post
It seems heat is causing the issue. But need to identify the part malfunctioning. I don't thing any point in blind replacement of parts.
You have not changed any part as a whole.

1. starter is still the old one. You are doing bits and pieces changes to it.

2. battery is still old one

3. battery cables. what do you mean by battery cable. there is wiring between starter and battery. Have you changed that. Have you changed the battery car cable, the negative wire.

then again there are wires within the starter. Have those been changed and replaced by heavier gauge.
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Old 18th April 2017, 16:34   #130
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
You have not changed any part as a whole.

1. starter is still the old one. You are doing bits and pieces changes to it.

2. battery is still old one

3. battery cables. what do you mean by battery cable. there is wiring between starter and battery. Have you changed that. Have you changed the battery car cable, the negative wire.

then again there are wires within the starter. Have those been changed and replaced by heavier gauge.
1. Yes. Still the old one. But the main parts, soleinoid, armature and the brushes were changed. I am ready to change the starter motor if it solves the issue. But the mechanics i consulted including the ASC is not sure about it. Hope you followed my older posts regarding this. As per the ASC, gasket is gone and that is the source of heat. Quoted 15K and 2 weeks.

2. Yes. battery is still the old one. But the same battery works on another car without any issues (even on hot condition, when i am having issues) and in that case, how should i suspect the battery?

3. Battery cable means the positive and negative cables that connect to the battery. Due to the loosened battery connectors, i had to replace both cables.

If there won't be any other suspected parts, i am thinking about replacing battery and starter motor together.
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Old 18th April 2017, 17:12   #131
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

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Originally Posted by balenoed_ View Post
The battery was 6 years old, but did not give any other symptoms, except this issue with hot start.
Did you do a load test of battery? The load test usually reveals such hidden symptoms right at the start. When i used to use RNS motors for swift service, they used to give that report during every service and it was quiet accurate. The last time when it showed poor result and i didn't bother; within few days the christmas tree phenomenon happened on the dash, which was indication that the battery was on its way out.
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Old 18th April 2017, 21:36   #132
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

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Originally Posted by sujithsidhardha View Post
2. Yes. battery is still the old one. But the same battery works on another car without any issues (even on hot condition, when i am having issues) and in that case, how should i suspect the battery?
Not the same environment.
Why didn't you try the other cars battery in your own?

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Old 19th April 2017, 10:33   #133
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

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Did you do a load test of battery? The load test usually reveals such hidden symptoms right at the start. When i used to use RNS motors for swift service, they used to give that report during every service and it was quiet accurate. The last time when it showed poor result and i didn't bother; within few days the christmas tree phenomenon happened on the dash, which was indication that the battery was on its way out.
Load test was not done on the battery yet. I tried an exide show room here and to my surprise they don't have load test device with them. They checked the battery by measuring the battery voltage and immediately claimed that the battery need to be changed. Battery voltage was not less than 12.5 volt. I don't think its not bad. How could they determine with that voltage alone and confirm that the battery was gone? He quoted the MRP itself and a buy back price of 400!. So the intention was pretty sure. Either the technician was not competent or Sale was their primary motive than support.

When i was at the workshop, my battery (disconnected when my engine was hot and having starting trouble) was placed on another santro and it started without any issues. Tried several times in series and the other car started without any issue. So we could defenitely rule out the posibility of battery. But even then, mechanic contacted me and told that there is issue with battery. Anyway, he himself adviced me that since there is an issue with the armature, let us change it first and if the issue persists, we could change the battery. After the change he told that there is no issue with battery and the culprit was the armature.

Anyway, i need to make sure that the battery is perfect. So I am searching for a battery shop with battery load tester. Will post the updates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Not the same environment.
Why didn't you try the other cars battery in your own?

Regards
Sutripta
Tried other car's battery on my car and my car failed to start when hot. That's the reason why i am still in a confusion to replace the battery or not. Considering all the points, i am trying to loan a starter first. Then will decide about the battery.
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Old 19th April 2017, 21:07   #134
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

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Originally Posted by sujithsidhardha View Post
Tried other car's battery on my car and my car failed to start when hot.
That makes sense. Not the other way around.

If you can get a loan starter, why not a loan battery. That is normally far easier to arrange.

Regards
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Old 19th April 2017, 21:38   #135
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Default Re: Santro doesnt start when HOT

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
That makes sense. Not the other way around.

If you can get a loan starter, why not a loan battery. That is normally far easier to arrange.

Regards
Sutripta
I am trying both and my first preference is starter. Since the other battery also didn't worked on my car, its pretty sure that my battery will almost be ok and the problem is something else.

I requested my mechanic for both and he replied me that he will get in touch with me, once he arrange one.

Still my concern is about any other things lying underneath, that may be the real culprit. Refer the abnormal heating near the dead pedal. And i am behind this issue for a long period. I don't think starter motor require an overhaul or change every 1-2 years.
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