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Old 12th April 2010, 20:27   #31
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i guys going through this entire thread i was just thinking about my car which is a NHC.

guys since the clutch assembly is of hydraulic type and it uses dot3-4 brake oil which is of hygroscopic nature why not change it once every 2 years like we do for our braking system.
now my question is:

will it jam some piston in the slave cylinder? since my mechanic was mentioning something about this? can someone please explain on this?

I have done 17000kms so far on my 1.5yr old NHC . should i go for a bleeding of clutch this time when i go for my car service will it cause problem with this so called piston in the slave cylinder?
as i have heard that these brake fluid catch upto 12%of moisture every year. so considering this fact i am little scared
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Old 12th April 2010, 20:34   #32
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yes, brake/clutch fluids are hygroscopic in nature, it is recommended that you get this flushed in specified intervals, as its millipore value and viscosity also changes with time, clutch bleeding if done properly (in a clean environment) will not cause any slave cylinder failure. Never fill with used clutch/brake oil during bleeding process.

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Old 14th April 2010, 00:25   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
yes, brake/clutch fluids are hygroscopic in nature, it is recommended that you get this flushed in specified intervals, as its millipore value and viscosity also changes with time, clutch bleeding if done properly (in a clean environment) will not cause any slave cylinder failure. Never fill with used clutch/brake oil during bleeding process.

Spike

just wanted to know what do u exactly mean by clean environment? do you think i should get this done at a honda A.S.S. OR my local mechanic?
does it require any specific machine?
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Old 14th April 2010, 11:40   #34
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My NHC is crossed 3yrs and run ~39k. Even though I am not experiencing any type of Clutch/Braking issues mentioned, is it worth to replace the clutch/brake fluids at the next service?
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Old 14th April 2010, 12:46   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all - hard clutch is the resultant of wear of clutch plate friction material as normal life progresses.The worn material becomes powder which remains in the bell housing and clogs the pressure plate mechanism. Clean everything and put it all back, then see what happens.

In clutch having higher FOS (factor of safety), this phenomenon is under control to a limited extent.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Thanks for the insight which is interesting to note. However, I have never seen the A.S.S. do this even once. My Esteem which has clocked close to 40K till date is having this problem and believe me when I say driving in traffic with such a clutch is more than a nightmare. The SA says that the only option is to replace the clutch plate and cover assembly.
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Old 9th May 2010, 15:49   #36
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I had some problem with my Dzire(12500kms), the gear shifting was not crisp. Got it checked today with the MASS.

He said they have done the bleeding of clutch.
Pardon me, but what exactly is done if they say bleeding is done?.
Is there a way to verify if its done? I have driven the vehicle only for 3 kms after the bleeding. Before i put on miles, i want to ensure it has been done.
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Old 18th June 2010, 22:30   #37
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Had a similar clutch related issue about a fortnight back. One fine morning, when about to go to my office, on depressing the clutch of my Vista Quadrajet (1.5 years, 12000 Kms) there was friction and a weird sound inside the bonnet. The TASC being very near, went there straight. They tried depressing the clutch and said the assembly need to be removed and examined. In the afternoon I was informed that the springs inside are weakened though the disc etc are fine and being in warranty, they are going to replace the whole assembly costing over 7K which had to be received from Trivandrum and thus need one or two days. Finally it was received back and the friction and sound was gone but there was some vibration when moving from first and reverse gears. Telephoned the SA who said the assembly being brand new, needs some breaking in and it will be alright after a few days driving. After two days, the very first symptoms returned and the car was taken back there. The mechanics, on inspection said it is something minor and asked me to wait. Within 45 minutes, they asked me to drive the car. Everything was smooth and fine as in a new car and the clutch is now feather touch. The mechanic who accompanied me for the drive told me that the just cylinder was lubricated and if the problem recurs, they will replace the cylinder etc., under warranty. What I feel is that the initial diagnosis was wrong and they unnecessarily replaced the whole clutch assembly. As of now the clutch movement and gear shift is perfect.

Last edited by janitha : 18th June 2010 at 22:33.
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Old 19th June 2010, 06:35   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janitha View Post
Had a similar clutch related issue about a fortnight back. One fine morning, when about to go to my office, on depressing the clutch of my Vista Quadrajet (1.5 years, 12000 Kms) there was friction and a weird sound inside the bonnet. The TASC being very near, went there straight. They tried depressing the clutch and said the assembly need to be removed and examined. In the afternoon I was informed that the springs inside are weakened though the disc etc are fine and being in warranty, they are going to replace the whole assembly costing over 7K which had to be received from Trivandrum and thus need one or two days. Finally it was received back and the friction and sound was gone but there was some vibration when moving from first and reverse gears. Telephoned the SA who said the assembly being brand new, needs some breaking in and it will be alright after a few days driving. After two days, the very first symptoms returned and the car was taken back there. The mechanics, on inspection said it is something minor and asked me to wait. Within 45 minutes, they asked me to drive the car. Everything was smooth and fine as in a new car and the clutch is now feather touch. The mechanic who accompanied me for the drive told me that the just cylinder was lubricated and if the problem recurs, they will replace the cylinder etc., under warranty. What I feel is that the initial diagnosis was wrong and they unnecessarily replaced the whole clutch assembly. As of now the clutch movement and gear shift is perfect.
You will have to face such incidents when you are in warranty. But once you get the bill, make sure the engine no. and chassis no. are of your same car. I am telling this because one of my friends had a similar issue when his Indigo's suspension set was changed 3 times very frequently, and finally we understood that the engine no. and chassis no. was not of his car, but some old taxi. They were using his warranty to replace someone's car which is not in warranty.
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Old 13th July 2010, 15:27   #39
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My Hyundai Tucson has done 85000KM and clutch pedal has become hard over last few thousand kms. Finally took it to Hyundai and they said the pressure plate has hardened. I asked them to replace it but they said the entire set has to be replaced (clutch plate, pressure plate, release bearing...).

The previous clutch overhaul was done at 55000KM. I reminded them about this and they said it's a problem with Tucson - the clutch life is average 25000KM only and the reason - Tucson has a full time 4WD (clutch operated - without central diff) and this takes toll on the clutch! Hyundai responded to this issue and released a modified clutch and pressure plate which should last longer!!! They will use that this time - let's see.

I told them that the clutch does not slip which means the clutch plate is OK (80kmph in 5'th gear is reached at 2000RPM - same as before). They said, yes, generally pressure plate gives away much earlier than clutch plate and the symptom of that is progressively harder clutch pedal (it's a slow poison so if you drive the same car daily, you will take time to realise this is happening while a new guy driving your car after a long time will spot it right away).

I asked if this can be solved by clutch fluid change, master/slave cylinder cleaning. They said no. It's a pressure plate issue. Any problem in the line/cylinders would manifest as "soft pedal travel till half way mark followed by hard pedal travel to the end position".

I asked if workmanship issues, misalignment during clutch overhaul, etc can cause such a short life of the pressure plate and they said it was true in old vehicles. In Tucson, there is no room/need for manual alignment.

I asked them to measure the pressure at the pedal as mentioned in this thread. And they said it's not possible in the service station as they don't have any instrument to do this. Also, they asked me what's the use of measuring this as everybody agrees that the pedal is harder than before and how measuring the hardness would help to solve/diagnose the cause??? I could not disagree!!!

Last edited by anandpadhye : 13th July 2010 at 15:29.
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Old 6th April 2011, 22:42   #40
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Default Re: Hydraulic Clutches - Why the hardness, even when condition is good

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
My Hyundai Tucson has done 85000KM and clutch pedal has become hard over last few thousand kms. Finally took it to Hyundai and they said the pressure plate has hardened. I asked them to replace it but they said the entire set has to be replaced (clutch plate, pressure plate, release bearing...).

The previous clutch overhaul was done at 55000KM. I reminded them about this and they said it's a problem with Tucson - the clutch life is average 25000KM only and the reason - Tucson has a full time 4WD (clutch operated - without central diff) and this takes toll on the clutch! Hyundai responded to this issue and released a modified clutch and pressure plate which should last longer!!! They will use that this time - let's see.

I told them that the clutch does not slip which means the clutch plate is OK (80kmph in 5'th gear is reached at 2000RPM - same as before). They said, yes, generally pressure plate gives away much earlier than clutch plate and the symptom of that is progressively harder clutch pedal (it's a slow poison so if you drive the same car daily, you will take time to realise this is happening while a new guy driving your car after a long time will spot it right away).

I asked if this can be solved by clutch fluid change, master/slave cylinder cleaning. They said no. It's a pressure plate issue. Any problem in the line/cylinders would manifest as "soft pedal travel till half way mark followed by hard pedal travel to the end position".

I asked if workmanship issues, misalignment during clutch overhaul, etc can cause such a short life of the pressure plate and they said it was true in old vehicles. In Tucson, there is no room/need for manual alignment.

I asked them to measure the pressure at the pedal as mentioned in this thread. And they said it's not possible in the service station as they don't have any instrument to do this. Also, they asked me what's the use of measuring this as everybody agrees that the pedal is harder than before and how measuring the hardness would help to solve/diagnose the cause??? I could not disagree!!!
The Tucson 4WD system uses a Borg-Warner ITM 3e which is a multi-plate clutch coupling with magnetic solenoid based activation. This i understand is different from the drive clutch.

Now the problem :

Got the clutch ( clutch plate, pressure plate, flywheel and slave cylinder ) changed on my Tucson last weekend.

After the change, the gear shifts were harder. Took the car to the Safdarjung Hyundai again yesterday. The slave cylinder was bled and the clutch freeplay reduced and the gear stick lubricated.

The gear shifts are now ok but not as smooth as before the clutch change and the clutch has also become harder than it was immediately after the clutch change.

How hard should the clutch pedal be normally on the tucson? I tend to compare the same with my Santro clutch and the tucson clutch is harder that the Santro. I am not sure whether the hard clutch is normal or it still needs some adjustment.

Which Hyundai workshop in Delhi/NCR has a pedal pressure meter ? I need to get my Tucson clutch pedal checked.
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Old 7th April 2011, 13:10   #41
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Default Re: Hydraulic Clutches - Why the hardness, even when condition is good

Friends, need your advice on the below. I have a 15 months old Tata Manza QJD which has done about 30k km's. Car is in warranty and has hydraulic clutch. The problems:

1. The clutch has become harder than earlier and I am experiencing this for about last 15k km's.
2. I feel excessive viabrations in the clutch pedal when driving in lower gears at lower speeds (say typical NCR city drive). The viabrations are felt when pressing or releasing the clutch.
3. While shifting between 1st, 2nd, 3rd gears (both up and down shift) and releasing clutch after shift results in a one time jerk (no matter how slowly the clutch is released).
4. Gear lever has developed a little bit of play. Like in neutral or any gear I can feel that there is up/down and left/right play in the lever. It's not much but ~1 inch of movement on the top of the lever.

I get my car serviced at Sterling Automobile in Noida (don't have better options, I guess). At last service told them about the clutch hardness but they said it's normal. Last week I called for a test drive of new Manza to check on any of these issues. The new car did not have any of these issues. I know the clutch in my car is not slipping as I get very decent mileage (17-18 local and 22-23 highway). Also RPM is consistant with the speed at relevant gear (say about 2k rpm at 80 in 5th gear). There is no juddering on releasing the clutch.

I need to get the 30k service done next weekend. Can you please suggest what all I should get checked for the above problems? So far, this is what is on my mind (please share your views on this).

1. For clutch related issues - adjust the free play, bleed the clutch (if they agree to), check for parts of hydraulic system for leakage or other damage. Any idea how is the free pay adjusted in hydraulic clutch? I know how it's on a cable operated one as I do adjust on our santro every year or so. Also, any idea if the servos are different for clutch cylinder and brake cylinder?
2. For gear related issue - check for lever lubrication, shifter bushes, gear linkages. FYI Manza has a cable operated GB so do those cables require lubrication? Also any possibility to adjust (tighten/ loosen) the cables?

Tanveer - do you know if Sterling has the equipment to measure the clutch hardness? I read somewhere that you visited them in the past.

Driving in traffic has become a major issue due to these issues. So Please advise. Thanks much in advance.

Last edited by amit1234singla : 7th April 2011 at 13:12.
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Old 8th April 2011, 12:40   #42
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Default Re: Hydraulic Clutches - Why the hardness, even when condition is good

^^^Amit
I am facing the same problem (clutch jerk and hardness) with my Manza though the car is 3800ks on the ODO only. I raised it as a complaint during my first service, they claimed they had fixed it but they had not. Haven't seen/heard other manza owners complain about it though. Took it to a couple of Tata authorized Service points and they asked me to take it to a mail dealer. Planning to check it out with TASC during second service.

Also took the Vehicle to Raghav of Ignite Garage ( you may check the reviews of his place at the Chennai section of the directory) to seek his opinion. He took the test drive and he suspects that the jerk while releasing the clutch is perhaps a design fault - the gear box not perfectly mated with the torque characteristics of the engine. However he said that it is no big deal and shouldn't worry about it that much.

On the clutch hardness and jerk while engaging, he suspects that it could be a manufacturing defect and asked me to take it to TASC and get it replaced under warranty.

The TATA authorized service point mentioned that the hydraulic clutch is self adjusting and the play cannot be adjusted. Raghav on the other hand mentioned that though there are provisions to adjust the play, but it is best avoided.

Last edited by Sridhar K : 8th April 2011 at 12:41. Reason: typos
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Old 8th April 2011, 14:59   #43
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Default Re: Hydraulic Clutches - Why the hardness, even when condition is good

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Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
^^^Amit
I am facing the same problem (clutch jerk and hardness) with my Manza though the car is 3800ks on the ODO only. I raised it as a complaint during my first service, they claimed they had fixed it but they had not. Haven't seen/heard other manza owners complain about it though. Took it to a couple of Tata authorized Service points and they asked me to take it to a mail dealer. Planning to check it out with TASC during second service.

Also took the Vehicle to Raghav of Ignite Garage ( you may check the reviews of his place at the Chennai section of the directory) to seek his opinion. He took the test drive and he suspects that the jerk while releasing the clutch is perhaps a design fault - the gear box not perfectly mated with the torque characteristics of the engine. However he said that it is no big deal and shouldn't worry about it that much.

On the clutch hardness and jerk while engaging, he suspects that it could be a manufacturing defect and asked me to take it to TASC and get it replaced under warranty.

The TATA authorized service point mentioned that the hydraulic clutch is self adjusting and the play cannot be adjusted. Raghav on the other hand mentioned that though there are provisions to adjust the play, but it is best avoided.
Thanks Sridhar. I am tempted to believe that this is not a design issue. Have not heard of others mentioning it on the forum and neither the TD cars have this problem. I guess will find out after the 30k service.
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Old 15th January 2012, 00:22   #44
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Default Remedy that worked for my Tucson Clutch

Tucson has hydraulic clutch.

I got the clutch fluid fully drained and replaced with fresh DOT3 fluid and clutch has become soft.

The details are posted on my Tucson thread.

Cheers!
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Old 15th January 2012, 13:48   #45
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Default Re: Hydraulic Clutches - Why the hardness, even when condition is good

That means that the clutch fluid in a hydraulic clutch has to be changed every 2/3 years, just like the brake fluid.

One question. Do they use any extra fluid for flushing, or just drain the old fluid and replace it with new. In my experience flushing once with extra fluid does help clean all the lines where contaminants may have deposited.
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