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Old 8th June 2010, 21:02   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1self
the fuel filter in a diesel engine does filter out water & collects it.
Why is this provided in diesels ? I mean, why do they expect water in diesel and not in petrol cars ?

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Originally Posted by dhanushs
Can removing/installing fuel tank/lines of a Ford IKON be dealt 'safely' with maruthi guys?.
I would think this is something they can do safely.
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Old 8th June 2010, 21:11   #17
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Basically you had water in the tank & that is not a good idea. It may have starved the engine on fuel & "could" lead to leaning out & raise operating temperature & damage the pistons, rings, bearings & a whole lot more, hope you had it resolved asap.

Honestly - you should not have driven the car or even started it when you knew she was "high" on Soda :-)

But then what is done is done. Make sure you drain & waste the fuel & put in fresh petrol.

I think I am right in my suggestion. Let the gurus guide you !!



Cheers

Last edited by GTO : 10th June 2010 at 18:22. Reason: No alcohol discussions please, not even jokingly
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Old 8th June 2010, 21:11   #18
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Water in the fuel tank is NOT going to cause any hydrolock. Your engine is not going to self destruct. What soda does is make the engine run erratic. What you do is to get the tank cleaned and fuel lines flushed and injectors cleaned, thats it. You need not worry, nothing major.

What causes hydrolock is when the cylinder is flooded with liquid, through the air intake during a flod or through a leaky carburetor. When fuel used to get flooded in the cylinders (you could smell that) experienced guys used to remove the spark plugs and crank the engine, to prevent a hydrolock.

Last edited by Sankar : 8th June 2010 at 21:12.
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Old 8th June 2010, 21:36   #19
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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Water in the fuel tank is NOT going to cause any hydrolock. Your engine is not going to self destruct. What soda does is make the engine run erratic. What you do is to get the tank cleaned and fuel lines flushed and injectors cleaned, thats it. You need not worry, nothing major.
Now this is comforting. I guess now I can drive 'her' the 100kms to Ford.

Last edited by GTO : 10th June 2010 at 18:22. Reason: No alcohol discussions please, not even jokingly
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Old 8th June 2010, 22:22   #20
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ImmortalZ, NO liquid compresses, be it water, petrol or diesel. What burns in the engine is atomized particles & associated vapours. In fact i saw this case in a Hyundai A.S.S. workshop here in Pune, where a Santro ECU malfunctioned & left injectors open ALL the time the engine was running (not sequentially as is normal). The engine hydrolocked (or petrol-locked?) on petrol & broke 2 pistons & associated connecting rods!
Oh? I wonder how our engines run then. Do they pump a mystic secret ingredient with our petrol and diesel? Any liquid compresses and provided enough pressure, vaporizes.

Petrol and diesel will hydrolock when there is too much of it. Specifically, if there is more liquid than the volume of the compression chamber, the piston cannot complete it's travel and it is going hydrolock. (@Sankar) If there is water mixed into the fuel, during each power stroke, the water absorbs too much heat and prevents the next combustion event from evaporating as much water. Sequentially, water accumulates in the combustion chamber. A few cycles later, it's volume exceeds the chamber volume and you have hydrolock. It doesn't happen as suddenly and violently as a hydrolock from the intake, but water mixed with fuel can cause a hydrolock.

Last edited by ImmortalZ : 8th June 2010 at 22:27.
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Old 8th June 2010, 22:49   #21
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Basically, you have lowered the octane rating of the fuel with the water. That is the reason why your car, under stress on the ghats, was behaving the way it did.
How can the octane rating of gasoline be lowered since water/soda will not mix with the fuel?


Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Why is this provided in diesels ? I mean, why do they expect water in diesel and not in petrol cars ?

I would think this is something they can do safely.
Because Water gets into diesel fuel storage and vehicle tanks in several ways – by condensation of humid air, during transportation from refineries to service stations, by leakage through faulty fill pipes or vents and by careless handling.

Last edited by deutscheafrikar : 8th June 2010 at 22:58.
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Old 8th June 2010, 22:50   #22
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Oh? I wonder how our engines run then. Do they pump a mystic secret ingredient with our petrol and diesel? Any liquid compresses and provided enough pressure, vaporizes.
Right and wrong.

Water is incompressible. One part in 510^7 decrease in volume for each atmosphere increase in pressure - that it is too rigid a substance if constrained within a strong solid enclosure. Petrol & Diesel are not like that.
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Old 8th June 2010, 23:03   #23
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[quote=deutscheafrikar;1927527]How can the octane rating of gasoline be lowered since water/soda will not mix with the fuel?

Water & petrol do not form a stable mixture. That does not mean that they will not mix. It is just that in the very short time they will saperate. When a car is moving, the fuel & water in the tank is in constant motion. They do mix up. However once the car stops for even a short while, they form 2 distinct layers in the tank.
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Old 8th June 2010, 23:07   #24
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Right and wrong.

Water is incompressible. One part in 510^7 decrease in volume for each atmosphere increase in pressure - that it is too rigid a substance if constrained within a strong solid enclosure. Petrol & Diesel are not like that.
Petrol & diesel are also - in practical terms - incompressible. They may be more compressible than water but still need extremely high pressures to compress. That pressure can NEVER be found in the engine of an automobile.

Think about it. If liquids were compressible, then there would be no hydraulics!

Only gases compress.
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Old 8th June 2010, 23:11   #25
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Fluids can be compressed but never a liquid. Yes liquids can be compressed but only in the realms of a black hole. We are not talking of such infinite pressures here on earth where electrons are made to fall into the nucleus or reduce its orbital distance around the nucleus. All gases are fluids and all liquids are fluids but all fluids are not liquids. A bit of brushing up on the 11th class Nelson and Parker physics text book will be worth your while.
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Old 8th June 2010, 23:12   #26
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(@Sankar) If there is water mixed into the fuel, during each power stroke, the water absorbs too much heat and prevents the next combustion event from evaporating as much water. Sequentially, water accumulates in the combustion chamber. A few cycles later, it's volume exceeds the chamber volume and you have hydrolock. It doesn't happen as suddenly and violently as a hydrolock from the intake, but water mixed with fuel can cause a hydrolock.
Will not happen. Few cycles mean how long on the road? What you mean by water accumulates in the combustion chamber?? Water will not be in liquid form it will be as steam. What about exhaust stroke? Where does the steam go?

Know about water injection? Water is injected into the combustion chamber to prevent detonation.

Quote:
Petrol and diesel will hydrolock when there is too much of it. Specifically, if there is more liquid than the volume of the compression chamber, the piston cannot complete it's travel and it is going hydrolock.
Hydrolock occurs when there is too much of it, that part is correct. That much water never comes with fuel if you have water in the tank.

Water in fuel is bad for the engine, but not bad enough to make the engine self destruct or hydrolock.
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Old 8th June 2010, 23:23   #27
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Petrol & diesel are also - in practical terms - incompressible. They may be more compressible than water but still need extremely high pressures to compress.
Only gases compress.
The difference in compressibility of different liquids found on planet earth is insignificant. For all practical purposes liquids cannot be compressed with pressures presently achievable by humans. If there was a method to do so that is compress liquid hydrogen and Oxygen then travel to Mars would be a cake walk and Cryogenic engines would be the holy grail for propulsion in any form.
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Old 8th June 2010, 23:25   #28
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Hmm. Thanks for the kind PM dr.p. I was operating on flawed logic. Apologies to Sankar as well.
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Old 8th June 2010, 23:37   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1self View Post
Petrol & diesel are also - in practical terms - incompressible. They may be more compressible than water but still need extremely high pressures to compress.
Only gases compress.
The difference in compressibility of different liquids found on planet earth is insignificant. For all practical purposes liquids cannot be compressed with pressures presently achievable by humans. If there was a method to do so that is compress liquid hydrogen and Oxygen then travel to Mars would be a cake walk and Cryogenic engines would be the holy grail for propulsion in any form.

Last edited by drpullockaran : 8th June 2010 at 23:38. Reason: Mods remove this duplicate post
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Old 8th June 2010, 23:47   #30
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Thanks Sankar and drpullockaran! Very informative posts.
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