Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11th July 2010, 23:25   #16
Senior - BHPian
 
gaurav_chopra04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,256
Thanked: 534 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by adishenoy View Post
I had read an incident of a i10 engine block getting damaged because the crossmember in the front is missing in the design.
This must have been in case of a major crash, even a front cross wont have helped in such a case. Head light support assembly (metal), radiator and condensor takes the hit first, the longitudenals takes the hit thereafter (crumple zone 1), gets bent and then the impact reaches the engine.

Engine is one of the strongest part in a car, it doesnt get damaged so easily.

Last edited by gaurav_chopra04 : 11th July 2010 at 23:29.
gaurav_chopra04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2010, 23:35   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
ImmortalZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 2,133
Thanked: 139 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alankarm@sancha View Post
You are talking about the SANTRO and not the i10. I have (as you can read in my post) already pointed this out. I have personally seen the SANTRO, ACCENT, Elantra, i10, i20, VERNA -- all at the same time, with their front portion disassembled (at the workshop). The SANTRO, ACCENT and ELANTRA (even the GETZ as you yourself tell me) have a full metal frame in multiple parts. This is more rigid, sturdy and definitely less prone to breakage on minor impacts. Simply means that these are better built, sturdier and SAFER cars. These are definitely cheaper and less of a headache to maintain too.
The Santro, Accent and Elantra are generations old. They weren't designed with pedestrian safety in mind. Sure, when you rear end something, these cars will take it well (and give it well too - you'll see serious damage on whatever you hit). The i10, i20, Verna are all new cars designed to be sold worldwide, so they are designed with US and Euro safety norms in mind. And the next big thing is pedestrian safety.
ImmortalZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2010, 23:36   #18
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Faridabad
Posts: 719
Thanked: 36 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by specialist1968 View Post
In this context, I wish to bring all the bhpians attention to the "child part" philosophy that ford has put forth. Even honda city when introduced had a 3 piece bumper, which unfortunately vanished later on. It is shocking that even ford started making child parts after several years. Just imagine replacing the entire bumper and several other things for just a small dent, which normally could have bee left as such. Imagine the kind of energy that goes into manufacturing all these parts, which could have been avoided. All manufacturers should adopt the child part philosophy which essencially is a truly green policy that saves lot of energy (and cost) in manufacturing the parts, transporting and then fitting (having said that, there is already a thread running giving the high cost of repairs of a figo that had a small dent created by the tail pipe of a wagonR! Child part or no part, all new models seem to drain money out if you are met with a repair!).
Are you related with Ford in anyway?


In context of the thread, even the Figo that I saw when I was booking my Fiesta S has bumpers quite close to it's radiator unlike the Fiesta. But, when the sales consultant was explaining me the features of my Fiesta, he told me something about the bumpers being made of "polypropylene"(maybe not sure) material. He banged his knee to the bumper very very hard with full force and that too near the headlights but the bumper did not lose shape nor did it break anything. Let me tell you, the fiesta is a solidly built car but I did not ask him whether the Figo also uses the same material in it's bumpers. DAMN! The sales chap really banged his knee very badly, trust me.
abhipuru16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2010, 23:47   #19
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Tejas@perioimpl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bombay
Posts: 3,964
Thanked: 4,884 Times
Default

alankarm,

Firstly, i sympathize with your accidents and damages. Try to be a bit more careful next time.

Secondly, your title is misleading and wrong. All new cars have this kind of bumpers. They are designed to collapse so that the shock is not transfered to the occupants in case of an accident. You must definitely have heard of crumple zones.

I also own an i10 and my dad has been rear-ended and we changed the bumper. You need to live with it. There are so many fools who put bull bars in front and back of their vehicles. This will prevent damage to bumpers during minor bangs, but during a major crash, the entire force will go to the chassis and the crumple zones will not work.

Coming back to the topic, all cars have this single piece bumper to conform with safety rules. Remember, most manufacturers sell the same car in many countries. Thus, it is not possible to have multiple designs for a same product. Thus, they will confirm to the country which is strictest. And frankly, i'd rather pay for a broken bumper than a broken back.

Go to you tube and search for videos showing crashes with and without crumple zones. You will know what advantages these "FLIMSY" bumpers have.
Tejas@perioimpl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 00:04   #20
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Sheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Purnea(Bihar)
Posts: 5,202
Thanked: 4,809 Times
Default

Are Cars designed in such a way that even a minor shunt shall be enough to replace few parts which aren't linked to the shunt at all?

^More profit for the manufacturer as we all know that % of spares is around 10 times higher(even 20% or more in some cases) than sale %
Sheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 02:23   #21
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ajmer / Mumbai
Posts: 210
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
alankarm,

Firstly, i sympathize with your accidents and damages. Try to be a bit more careful next time.

Secondly, your title is misleading and wrong. All new cars have this kind of bumpers. They are designed to collapse so that the shock is not transfered to the occupants in case of an accident. You must definitely have heard of crumple zones.

I also own an i10 and my dad has been rear-ended and we changed the bumper. You need to live with it. There are so many fools who put bull bars in front and back of their vehicles. This will prevent damage to bumpers during minor bangs, but during a major crash, the entire force will go to the chassis and the crumple zones will not work.

Coming back to the topic, all cars have this single piece bumper to conform with safety rules. Remember, most manufacturers sell the same car in many countries. Thus, it is not possible to have multiple designs for a same product. Thus, they will confirm to the country which is strictest. And frankly, i'd rather pay for a broken bumper than a broken back.

Go to you tube and search for videos showing crashes with and without crumple zones. You will know what advantages these "FLIMSY" bumpers have.
Again, my point seems to be not understood!! If you read carefully, I am never talking about the bumper, but the frame on which everything is fixed, (The huge ORNAMENTAL bumper, the chrome plated and the black grills, the head lights, the radiator assembly with fan, the AC condenser and what not, everything is fixed on this).

This is a SINGLE piece (WHY?) of FLIMSY plastic.

I am of the opinion that this could have been made in multiple parts of metal (like the earlier ones), with some sort of retainers or rivets which break on a certain level of impact, so as to let the frame collapse. This will make the frame more rigid (for car safety also) and also repairable.

Definitely more ECO friendly and pocket friendly too. (But perhaps not Car dealer's margin friendly?).

With today's technologies in alloys and plastics, these should not be a problem, and should take care of the pedestrian safety too. It is only a matter of thinking of the owner of the car's expenses (Insurance is not an end all). Why replace at great expense, when it can be repaired at little expense?

Another thing, I happen to own a CIVIC too. With the American/European design requirements (as you say), this should be a most pedestrian unfriendly car. It has been reversed into with perhaps more force than I have seen the i10 experiencing -- the only damage -- a dent in the Civic's bumper, easily repaired and painted. Or is it that with more expensive cars the pedestrian safety is thrown out of the windows?? Why are they so much better built?

Hyundai is and probably will remain a CHEAP car maker compared to European/Japanese carmakers of the similar category cars. Yes cheaper and lower quality too.

They will sell more, be respected for their earnings and growth, but the quality of parts remains farrrrrrrrr behind Europeans and even the Japanese.

Last edited by alankarm@sancha : 12th July 2010 at 02:41.
alankarm@sancha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 02:40   #22
Senior - BHPian
 
kpzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Faridabad
Posts: 5,545
Thanked: 1,598 Times
Default

^^ You are referring to the Radiator support. Its plastic but not a flimsy one.

Too sleepy right now, will post more details(pros & cons) on that tomorrow.
kpzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 02:51   #23
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ajmer / Mumbai
Posts: 210
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

I always thought that crumple zones were mainly on the shell/body. A frame breaking like this on minor impacts, can lead to the whole engine block being pushed inside the cabin on major impact.

God forbid that something like this happens on my CIVIC on minor impacts.
alankarm@sancha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 02:57   #24
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ajmer / Mumbai
Posts: 210
Thanked: 2 Times
Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
^^ You are referring to the Radiator support. Its plastic but not a flimsy one.

Too sleepy right now, will post more details(pros & cons) on that tomorrow.
It is a whole frame with everything bolted/attached onto it. And it is flimsy or badly designed. I have been driving cars for more than 22-23 years, and have continuously had cars in my family since 1931 (yes!!, my great-grandfather had perhaps the 1st private - other than royalty owned, car in Ajmer) so I should know some basics.
alankarm@sancha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 07:55   #25
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: KL
Posts: 4,680
Thanked: 3,507 Times
Default

Yep its the radiator and front end support he's talking about, the whole thing is made of plastic (the bow on top is made of plastic, not sure about the bottom part, well if it is a single part then the whole thing might be plastic). Part no 64101 in the attached picture.

Pedestrian safety norms leads to a very FLIMSY car.-6064011.gif

Last edited by Sankar : 12th July 2010 at 07:57.
Sankar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 08:45   #26
Team-BHP Support
 
Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: B'lore-Manipal
Posts: 22,381
Thanked: 14,301 Times
Default

The title has been changed to reflect the real reason. This is not a design flaw, but a design feature to meet modern pedestrian safety norms.
Samurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 09:03   #27
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 394
Thanked: 154 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhipuru16 View Post
Are you related with Ford in anyway?


In context of the thread, even the Figo that I saw when I was booking my Fiesta S has bumpers quite close to it's radiator unlike the Fiesta. But, when the sales consultant was explaining me the features of my Fiesta, he told me something about the bumpers being made of "polypropylene"(maybe not sure) material. He banged his knee to the bumper very very hard with full force and that too near the headlights but the bumper did not lose shape nor did it break anything. Let me tell you, the fiesta is a solidly built car but I did not ask him whether the Figo also uses the same material in it's bumpers. DAMN! The sales chap really banged his knee very badly, trust me.
I completely disagree with what u r sales rep saying! My friends Fiesta (ZXi) got front bumper broken, when I accidentally (and I was driving!) removed my leg before putting gear to neutral while stopping, and his fiesta hit poll in-front of it! It was just that jerk is enough for it to loose shape (and a look on my friends face!)... Though bumper dent came off immediately, it broke the hinges, also damaged front headlight! So never believe what sale agent says... Fiesta is solid built, but not necessarily its bumper. And as it turned out, my friend has to replace the complete bumper, and headlight unit (so much to ford child parts)! But yes, unlike i10 what is described in OP, nothing else damaged!
RaguHolla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 09:39   #28
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Currently, New Delhi
Posts: 423
Thanked: 92 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alankarm@sancha View Post
Again, my point seems to be not understood!! If you read carefully, I am never talking about the bumper, but the frame on..............

They will sell more, be respected for their earnings and growth, but the quality of parts remains farrrrrrrrr behind Europeans and even the Japanese.
I understand that you are livid about your unfortunate 'discovery' but, mate, let's not go into compare & contrast between Koreans & Japs/Euro make cars. Most probably, Hyundai guys will be reading/ will read this and will come out with a new hardware revision of the frame & might also secretly replace it free of cost in the same way as they installed ECU covers on i20s. This might also be a problem concerning a particular batch so, its all the more beneficial that you voiced your concern.
JustCause is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 11:14   #29
Senior - BHPian
 
gaurav_chopra04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,256
Thanked: 534 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Yep its the radiator and front end support he's talking about, the whole thing is made of plastic (the bow on top is made of plastic, not sure about the bottom part, well if it is a single part then the whole thing might be plastic). Part no 64101 in the attached picture.

64101 part made of plastic? This is damn ridiculous if its true, in most cars atleast I have seen, this is made from metal. Will check in a neighbour's i10. In such a case, even minor impact can lead to big damages.

OT:This cutaway seems to be from i10s service manual.. where'd u get it from. its nice anyways.

Last edited by gaurav_chopra04 : 12th July 2010 at 11:17.
gaurav_chopra04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2010, 12:16   #30
Senior - BHPian
 
kpzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Faridabad
Posts: 5,545
Thanked: 1,598 Times
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by alankarm@sancha View Post
This will now lead me to clearly start telling friends and acquaintances not to buy HYUNDAI cars. They are out to cheat us, now that they are fully established.
Check out the quality of Verna radiator support once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alankarm@sancha View Post
I am also posting this in various magazine and other sites. i know they will not publish any of this in the print version, as they are getting a lot of money, goodies, cars to test and other perks from these car companies.
.
You are seriously pissed off. You need to re-group and find a way out of this calmly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adishenoy View Post
I had read an incident of a i10 engine block getting damaged because the crossmember in the front is missing in the design. Correct me if I am wrong.
Not true. Engine block will only get damaged in case of a major impact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alankarm@sancha View Post
It is a whole frame with eerything bolted/attached onto it. And it is flimsy or badly designed. I have been driving cars for more than 22-23 years, and have continuously had cars in my family since 1931 (yes!!, my great-grandfather had perhaps the 1st private - other than royalty owned, car in Ajmer) so I should know some basics.
I'm not doubting your experience and basics. But you need to accept the fact that a lot has changed in cars since 1931 or even in the last decade. You can't just compare the design of i10 with Fiat Padmini.

A lot of changes happen in manufacturing and everything is validated before putting it in mass production but sometimes things do go wrong and that doesn't mean you can condemn them a bunch of idiots.

Reason for putting a PLASTIC radiator supporter :
1. To absorb all the impact and avoid any damage to apron or chassis.
2. Its way lighter than a full steel frame radiator support, improves FE (may be)

Cons of this setup:
1. Its breaks on impact. Hence, not repairable.
2. Will Hurt your pocket everytime there's some damage


Now regarding the cars with this setup, i10 is slightly more prone to damage than others due to 2 main reasons.

1. Design is such that, radiator support is lower than other cars & chance of getting hit from the bottom side is more.

2. The quality of i10 radiator supporter plastic is crap. Verna's radiator support plastic is way better and won't break that easily.

Just fyi. there are 2 customers who have filed a case against Hyundai for the same issue. I hope Hyundai is working on this.

Last edited by kpzen : 12th July 2010 at 12:19.
kpzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety! GTO Technical Stuff 16 26th February 2017 16:08
The Pedestrian Safety Aspect of Cars Xeno Technical Stuff 8 4th January 2013 04:39
European Safety Norms hasopi The Indian Car Scene 20 26th November 2004 14:23
A very very very hot Murcielago. v12 The International Automotive Scene 18 14th July 2004 22:04


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 03:04.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks