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Old 13th July 2010, 20:11   #46
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You compare the Suzuki Swift's pedestrian safety rating of 3 to the i10's 3. Yet, the Swift is made in India by Maruthi, while the Swift that EuroNCAP tested is not. The i10 however, is made in India and exported worldwide. The i10 you get here is the same you get there sans toys. The Swift? Ha. Freaking. Ha.

Face it, safety norms are not going to let the cars you love - with metal bumpers that destroy everything they hit - come back.

I would suggest you get an MM540.
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Old 13th July 2010, 20:36   #47
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alankarm, I never said YOU collided with a 7" slab @20kmph. I said "a car collided ...", that's all. A 7" inch concrete slab is not wafer, it can derail a locomotive or contain a kilogram RDX explosion's concussion wave. There would have been more damage if you were there at 20kmph.

You are taking the incident very lightly, it seems.

EuroNCAP:
i10:
Hyundai i10 | Euro NCAP - For safer cars crash test safety rating
Swift:
Suzuki Swift | Euro NCAP - For safer cars crash test safety rating
i20:
Hyundai i20 | Euro NCAP - For safer cars crash test safety rating

As you can see the OLD Swift (this is OT: not the new one, that we will get only in 2011. We are queuing up for booking and waiting endlessly for an OUTDATED product.) uses its hood mainly while the newer and more advanced i10 uses its bumper.

And we are asking Hyundai India to redesign their car to something similar to the OLD Swift.

Last edited by sandeepmdas : 13th July 2010 at 20:38.
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Old 13th July 2010, 20:56   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
You compare the Suzuki Swift's pedestrian safety rating of 3 to the i10's 3. Yet, the Swift is made in India by Maruthi, while the Swift that EuroNCAP tested is not. The i10 however, is made in India and exported worldwide. The i10 you get here is the same you get there sans toys. The Swift? Ha. Freaking. Ha.

Face it, safety norms are not going to let the cars you love - with metal bumpers that destroy everything they hit - come back.

I would suggest you get an MM540.
Well In case of Swift Airbags and Engine differs but bumper and body which is responsible for pedisterian safety is same so how does it matter if it is made in India by Maruti or not ?
Quote:
And we are asking Hyundai India to redesign their car to something similar to the OLD Swift.
@sandeepmdas The rating you have quoted is of the old Swift which is almost same to i10, Also if I read the link you provided it reads as follows for i10

Pedestrian
The bumper scored maximum points for the protection it offered pedestrians' legs. However, the front edge of the bonnet offered poor protection.
Unquote

So why for i10 bonnet offering poor protection can be a good thing ? as you have written in your post ?

For Swift the link reads as follows.

Quote
Pedestrian
The bumper protected well as did the areas where a child’s head would strike. That for adult heads was less effective. The bonnet’s leading edge gave some protection: overall a good effort by Suzuki.
unquote.

It is obvious that Child head is till hight of bumper and bumper protects ,Adult heads will hit near to wind shield and I10 does not do anything special there as well.
Why do you think that bonnet edge giving protection is a bad thing ?

Sort of i10 fanboyism at work ?

Last edited by amitk26 : 13th July 2010 at 21:07.
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Old 14th July 2010, 07:34   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmdas View Post
alankarm, I never said YOU collided with a 7" slab @20kmph. I said "a car collided ...", that's all. A 7" inch concrete slab is not wafer, it can derail a locomotive or contain a kilogram RDX explosion's concussion wave. There would have been more damage if you were there at 20kmph.

You are taking the incident very lightly, it seems.

EuroNCAP:
i10:
Hyundai i10 | Euro NCAP - For safer cars crash test safety rating
Swift:
Suzuki Swift | Euro NCAP - For safer cars crash test safety rating
i20:
Hyundai i20 | Euro NCAP - For safer cars crash test safety rating

As you can see the OLD Swift (this is OT: not the new one, that we will get only in 2011. We are queuing up for booking and waiting endlessly for an OUTDATED product.) uses its hood mainly while the newer and more advanced i10 uses its bumper.

And we are asking Hyundai India to redesign their car to something similar to the OLD Swift.

If all modern cars PUNTO/SWIFT/A-star/Ritz/Beat/Figo/Micra/new Wagon R/Estillo/Vista etc. are as flimsy, god help us all.

PEDESTRIAN SAFETY IS OK! But how safe would a pedestrian be even if a car at 20mph hits a pedestrian, the front end collapses, the car at 20 mph still will hurt the pedestrian enough before it stops.

Anyway the basic discussion (and the reason the thread was moved here) was a technical one related to design flaw.

If the other cars sold by Hyundai are not upto the same safety standard, then they should withdraw them from the market and give us only the best car possible. A car that is cheaper to produce than the Santro. SAFER to everybody and also more revenue generating for the dealer.

I request some more TECHNICAL persons to please compare PUNTO, POLO, Fabia, Jazz, i10, i20, A-star, Figo, Beat, Micra, Vista, Ritz, Santro, Swift, Alto, Estillo, Wagon R, Spark, M-800 (tell me if I missed any!) -- in this respect.

Whether they are using the same setup for PEDESTRIAN safety??

The breakability and rigidity of the said parts.

Also the cost of the part and what all is also damaged when this part is damaged (collateral damage).

A lot of these above cars (POLO, FABIA, PUNTO, FIGO, BEAT, are from European/American manufacturers, who have to follow the same norms).

How many of these have this problem that I am facing. (This will also help me in deciding the car to replace the i10).

A design flaw cannot be hidden. This is a mistake on Hyundai's part. Now it seems to be intentional, to generate more and frequent revenue.

They are I repeat most UNSYMPATHETIC to the concerns of the driver.

They are hell bent on spoiling an otherwise excellent car with this problem.

I have already sent them many e-mails, but seems to no avail. No person from Hyundai has been in touch till date. This is WORSE than my HONDA experience.

I think amitk26 says it best when the comparo of the Swift and i10, being bandied about by some so as to term i10 better in safety than swift, is put in the real perspective and the actual wordings spelt out.

Last edited by alankarm@sancha : 14th July 2010 at 07:42.
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Old 14th July 2010, 09:46   #50
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This thread reminds me of an incident that happened just after I had booked my i10 - before I took delivery (Nearly two years ago).

I was driving my Dad's NHC, and had stopped at a Red Light, traffic was light and several cars jumped the light by driving past me on the left. All of a sudden, we were rear ended by an i10 (incidentally the same color and trim as mine, and driven by a 25ish year old - again someone I could relate to ).

The guy must have been doing atleast 30 if not 40 - and he confirmed that he was at about 40, and just did'nt see us. He was extremely apologetic and offered to pay the differential damages after insurance. We swapped contact details and went our seperate ways.

Now the damage factor - the NHC had a totally broken bumper, a crumpled boot (crushed atleast 8-10"), a dented left hand rear panel and two broken tail lights. Visibly, the i10 had only a broken bumper - somehow it seemed the nose of the i10 had kind of wedged under the tail of the NHC.

Anyway about 2-3 weeks later, both cars fixed, we met with the other party and swapped notes -
The NHC ended up costing 39K (and the side panel was un-dented not replaced) - we got insurance for 27K and the i10 guy paid us for the difference without much fuss.
Now the i10 only required a new front bumper - I remember specifically asking him if the radiator or any other parts needed to be replaced. Cost him some 8K (I'm not sure of this number)

At that juncture, immediately after the crash - I was joking around with Dad that "My Car" (read the i10) is so much more solid than your car.

(Please note, this is not the reason I bought an i10 - I had already booked before this crash happened)

Now, having driven around in my i10 for two odd years, I have been lucky enough not to have had any unfortunate incidents. I was rear ended by an Innova at extremely low speed about 6 months ago, but no damage to either car.

So just my two cents about the "i10 being a flimsy car"
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Old 14th July 2010, 10:31   #51
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I think the real cause of this discussion is about policy of car makers in India regarding replacement parts and the costs involved. Now some may say bumper and radiator support are built as one integrated unit due to safety concerns but how about other parts such as electrical OVRM. In most of the cars ( with exception of Maruti) if you break the mirror you are forced to buy full OVRM assembly, Similarly if the cowl breaks in an impact consumer is forced to buy full assembly instead of just cowl.
Same goes for tail -lamps,fog lamps and many more parts.

So either you need to know where to locate the exact spare from scrap yards in old city areas or willing to fork big amount. So there seems to be a pattern and it is not coincidence that A.S.S workshops mint most money from such body parts. Also I have seen that some so called premium cars sell parts such as fog bulbs at more then10X cost of what you can buy from open market of reputed brands such as Osram and Phillips.

This IMHO is due to the fact that manufacturers are not forced by consumer protection laws to sell spares over the counter in open market and there is no watchdog to monitor unethical practices.
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Old 14th July 2010, 11:06   #52
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This is slightly OT, but somewhat relevant, even though it is about two wheelers.

The year was 1984 - 85 and the place was Tuticorin. I was a fresher with my employer and was planning to buy my first bike. That was the time the Indo-Japs were making their appearance and we of the younger crowd were very much in favour of them. But the older crowd who grew up on Rajdoot-Jawa-Bullet diet would deride them during the palaver at lunch/coffee breaks, and call them mopeds! Then one interesting accident happened.

There was a bridge over a rivulet on the way to our factory from the town. Not a small bridge really, two heavy vehicles can cross each other easily without slowing down. A colleague had recently purchased a new step through bike called "Silver Plus" from Enfield (a Zundapp product really). This fellow somehow managed to have a head on collision with a Rajdoot 175 on this bridge, at a not inconsiderable speed.

As a result, the Silver Plus was completely damaged from the petrol tank onwards - the tank, handlebars,fork and front wheel gone. But this rider was unharmed, but for a few abrasions. The Rajdoot was completely untouched, except for a few scratches. But the rider's leg was broken.

I would always prefer the damage to the vehicle, which can be fixed easily, though it may burn a hole in the pocket. Injury, whether to the occupant of the vehicle or to a pedestrian, is always a much bigger trouble.
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Old 14th July 2010, 11:32   #53
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That is precisely the point which I had discussed earlier. cars, bikes or anything mechanical and lifeless can be repaired or replaced! but human lives just cannot be. cars are always built with both the drivers and pedestrian in mind! period. there is no use blaming the designers and manufacturers.
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Old 14th July 2010, 11:50   #54
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What you say is entirely correct. But what was the magnitude of the impact? Also here we are interested in the wrong design/material and cost of the part, and not saying that personal or human safety should be overlooked.

You must read that I have said that i10 is an excellent car, but if it starts burning these huge holes in our pocket, even for minor impacts, the equation between good and expensive changes.

Hyundai must compare all the other contemporary cars with similar or better safety ratings for pedestrian, and then I think Hyundai will be in for an eye opening rude shock. Most will have this part in multiple parts of steel, with some plastic.

Also we are talking about head on collision with pedestrian here. Most % damage to pedestrians is done by side swipes from cars. Does that mean that the whole car start collapsing including the side fenders, the doors, (Maybe even the whole body?) on minor impacts. This will not help the pedestrian in any way and definitely make the car flimsier.

Are only cars of Hyundai meant to have this feature? Lets see how many Mercs/BMW/Volvo?Volkswagen cars have this defective feature (Single piece, HUGE frame, prone to breakup on minor impact.

Even the airbag in cars activates at a certain level of impact (using sensors). Do they not care about passenger/driver safety?

What is defective will remain defective. Hyundai has done well to hide this. Let them come out with a full statistics of their most replaced parts after minor or major impact, and then lets see. These should be available with them by now. 4-5 pcs. changed / week at Ajmer, for a single so important part is huge.

They have to start thinking of rectifying this defect and recalling the cars to rectify this.
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Old 14th July 2010, 12:01   #55
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Well, I am not sure about the i10, but Figo does have flimsy bumpers and people are worried about the radiator acting as a bumper. But as per your "concrete bar" incident, while I was TDing a figo, I had to reverse my car and from no where an Indica came and parked in the way, all this happened on the left while I was trying to steer past an obstacle on right and I ended up bumping into the Indica and what happened? The Figo's bumper took the shock and ended up with a few scratches and Indica had a small dent.

I presume the same thing would happen to i10, but may be because of the car's height and the specific nature of the collision the damages vary.

Or may be it was a strategic move by Hyundai, auto manufactures do make a lot of money by selling spares
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Old 14th July 2010, 12:02   #56
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A pedestrian safe bumper should collapse at an impact of 10 - 15 kph or so. Even at this speed, the momentum will be high enough to harm a pedestrian but for a collapsible bumper. At much higher speeds it will not help - the guy will be pulp, collapsible bumper or not!

It is mass multiplied by velocity, is it not? I have seen a fellow knocked off by a train that was moving at < 10 KMPH, and he died.
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Old 14th July 2010, 12:25   #57
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I think people are again and again going back to collapsible bumper and pedestrian safety which is not the point of discussion at all and original poster is not arguing at all about it.

The discussion and comparison with Swift I provided was just to understand if it is absolutely necessary that bumper transfers the energy to internal parts to achieve pedestrian safety. I think Hyundai i10 transfers the energy to internal parts becuase bumper does not have enough room to cushion the impact.

Second point was availability of child parts for repairs instead of selling complete assembly and not selling parts over the counter , This is clearly a money minting strategy as no one can argue that any kind of safety is impacted by selling practices ( except the financial safety of A.S.S and company )
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Old 14th July 2010, 15:05   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
I think the real cause of this discussion is about policy of car makers in India regarding replacement parts and the costs involved. Now some may say bumper and radiator support are built as one integrated unit due to safety concerns but how about other parts such as electrical OVRM. In most of the cars ( with exception of Maruti) if you break the mirror you are forced to buy full OVRM assembly, Similarly if the cowl breaks in an impact consumer is forced to buy full assembly instead of just cowl.
Same goes for tail -lamps,fog lamps and many more parts.

This IMHO is due to the fact that manufacturers are not forced by consumer protection laws to sell spares over the counter in open market and there is no watchdog to monitor unethical practices.
I agree that many manufacturers are having a gala time owing to absence of consumer protection laws. I hope cars other than the i10 from Hyundai stable, and also other manufacturers have tougher protection at the front. I know for sure that the Skoda Laura has a mighty tough bumper, as I'd witnessed a BHPian accidentally crashing head on onto a milestone at a good speed----the only damage was to a couple of plastic dummies on the bumper!!

But i want to point out that not only Maruti but also Hyundai and Ford sell mirrors for damaged ORVMs, instead of the whole assembly. They cost around 500 to 600 Rupees each---my pals owing a Sonata and a Fiesta got those replaced at those rates.

Last edited by vnabhi : 14th July 2010 at 15:07.
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Old 14th July 2010, 16:43   #59
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There is another angle to the bumpers with and without metal frame inside (probably nothing to do with Pedestrian safety ).
Bumpers without metal frame will flex(like a rubber ball) while hitting something hard and come back to the original shape.
On the other hand, the bumpers with metal frame seem to go out of shape some times (if the impact was forceful enough). I have seen a specific incident involving a Jazz when the driver hit a stone which caused irreversible bend in the bottom of the front bumper.

@vnabhi, regarding the manufacturers forcing to replace the entire assembly instead of a part, this seems to vary from dealer to dealer. I had 2 specific instances when Metro Ford guys told me that entire assembly needs to be replaced but Kaveri Ford managed with just replacing the parts (cover in case of ORVM assembly and pins/clips in case cladding which runs around for Fusion+).

Last edited by Guna : 14th July 2010 at 17:00.
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Old 14th July 2010, 22:05   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
There is another angle to the bumpers with and without metal frame inside (probably nothing to do with Pedestrian safety ).
Bumpers without metal frame will flex(like a rubber ball) while hitting something hard and come back to the original shape.
On the other hand, the bumpers with metal frame seem to go out of shape some times (if the impact was forceful enough). I have seen a specific incident involving a Jazz when the driver hit a stone which caused irreversible bend in the bottom of the front bumper.

@vnabhi, regarding the manufacturers forcing to replace the entire assembly instead of a part, this seems to vary from dealer to dealer. I had 2 specific instances when Metro Ford guys told me that entire assembly needs to be replaced but Kaveri Ford managed with just replacing the parts (cover in case of ORVM assembly and pins/clips in case cladding which runs around for Fusion+).

1stly I must point out that the plastic frame (called panel member in Hyundai lingo) does not flex -- it just breaks. The metal part or a mixture meta/plastic would perhaps have been more friendly. The bumper gets dented and bruised (dent removable by hand immediately), but since have to always go for insurance claim due to the breakage of frame/panel member, also get the bumper replaced at a cost of about Rs.450/- to me.

Now the damage to my pocket here is 450/- for the 50% of bumper plastic, 3000/- for 50% of frame

To the Insurance company it is 450/- for bumper, 3000/- for frame, 3000/- for bumper colour and labour, another 1000/- or so as labour etc.

Now if the frame had not broken, the cost would have been NIL to both me and the Insurance co. too. Only I would be driving with a somewhat scratched but fully serviceable bumper.

Both me and the Insurance company loose.

Even if the frame was cheaper or of multiple parts with the individual relevant part not being costly, I WOULD NOT HAVE CLAIMED INSURANCE, and got the repair done myself.

Loser here would be the dealership and Hyundai, who do not get to fleece the customers.

We NEED A RALPH NADER here. I think a lot of you will have heard of him. His activism forced Detroit to change and listen to consumers.
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