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Old 21st July 2010, 22:02   #16
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Spike, scorpio 2.6 CRDE does not have glow plugs. All 2.6 owners I have spoken to face some problem above 4000m above sea level.
Fuel quality in ladakh is very bad. I think that could be the problem, rather than altitude.
Tanveer, I know 2.6 doesn't come with glow plugs but can be made with glow plugs (different head is available which is a direct fit). IIRC domestic models usually do not come with Glow Plugs. Keeping this in mind we have insisted on using glow plugs on Thar for customers like you .

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We discussed the issue of adding diesel antigel to the tank in an earlier thread too, where Spike mentioned about antigel going into the tanks of export models.
Yes antigel is added to diesel for export models, don't remember the brand name though.

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Old 22nd July 2010, 15:08   #17
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BTW, dadu, where in India does one freely source BG Diesel Thaw or Bardahl Diesel Antifreeze? or any of the other brands?
Sikand Standley is the sole BG Master distributor for India and you can check for their Distributors for your state here. I am not sure for Bardhal since I didnt pursue them for any products.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 10:27   #18
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Sikand Standley is the sole BG Master distributor for India...
Sikand Standley's website doesn't show up BG Diesel Thaw. The distributor I called has no clue about the product either.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 23rd July 2010 at 10:31.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 10:51   #19
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Sikand Standley's website doesn't show up BG Diesel Thaw. The distributor I called has no clue about the product either.
I was expecting that since its a new product from BG. There is no other option than to ask someone to buy it in US and carry along.

Otherwise, just mix 30% Kerosene in Diesel for temperatures ranging from 0 to -10 Deg Cent. In a Safari its 15 ltrs Kerosene in 50 ltrs of Diesel (Tank Capacity 65ltrs). Just like additives, pour Kerosene and ask them to fill diesel afterwards to the brim, this will mix it well.

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Old 23rd July 2010, 18:15   #20
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Sikand Standley's website doesn't show up BG Diesel Thaw. The distributor I called has no clue about the product either.
Update: Spoke to someone from BG's India office. He is unable to provide BG Diesel Thaw, but suggests instead that we use a product called BG 248 instead. Check this out...

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from BG Company.

I'm expecting a price quote for bulk purchase on the email in a day or so. In the meanwhile, do you think this will serve our purposes, and work to prevent diesel gelling in sub-zero temperatures?

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 23rd July 2010 at 18:18.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 18:23   #21
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Originally Posted by dadu View Post
I was expecting that since its a new product from BG. There is no other option than to ask someone to buy it in US and carry along.

Otherwise, just mix 30% Kerosene in Diesel for temperatures ranging from 0 to -10 Deg Cent. In a Safari its 15 ltrs Kerosene in 50 ltrs of Diesel (Tank Capacity 65ltrs). Just like additives, pour Kerosene and ask them to fill diesel afterwards to the brim, this will mix it well.
But, will Kerosene damage the engine ? I'm asking from my experience of seeing Buses using High Speed Kerosene.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 18:51   #22
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...mix 30% Kerosene in Diesel for temperatures ranging from 0 to -10 Deg Cent.
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Originally Posted by mithun View Post
But, will Kerosene damage the engine ? I'm asking from my experience of seeing Buses using High Speed Kerosene.
The recommendation I've got from taxiwallahs in the higher reaches of Uttarakhand is a 10% mix, rather than 30%. A few things immediately come to mind though, when mixing kerosene into diesel.
  1. Kerosene being high-sulphur (about 0.3% sulphur), should mess up the emissions, as well as the catalysts in BS-3/BS-4 engines.
  2. With lower lubricity, continuous use of a kerosene mix over a 100 km or more can lead to pump damage.
  3. Kerosene has a higher flash point than diesel (ignites at a higher temp) IIRC, so starting the engine in cold weather may still be tough, requiring quite a few cranks even though the diesel does not gel up.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 19:10   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mithun View Post
But, will Kerosene damage the engine ? I'm asking from my experience of seeing Buses using High Speed Kerosene.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
The recommendation I've got from taxiwallahs in the higher reaches of Uttarakhand is a 10% mix, rather than 30%. A few things immediately come to mind though, when mixing kerosene into diesel.
  1. Kerosene being high-sulphur (about 0.3% sulphur), should mess up the emissions, as well as the catalysts in BS-3/BS-4 engines.
  2. With lower lubricity, continuous use of a kerosene mix over a 100 km or more can lead to pump damage.
  3. Kerosene has a higher flash point than diesel (ignites at a higher temp) IIRC, so starting the engine in cold weather may still be tough, requiring quite a few cranks even though the diesel does not gel up.
These ratio's are from the Horses mouth, i.e. you can read them in the owner manual for 2.2l Safari. So no worries there.

BG248 is another additive from them, seeing the description it will help in preventing the Gelling of Diesel in Sub-Zero temperatures apart from cleaning the fuel system, its a lighter version of BG244. I was aware of BG248 but never paid attention to its anti-gelling properties earlier. You found it

Last edited by dadu : 23rd July 2010 at 19:14.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 22:28   #24
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Originally Posted by dadu View Post
These ratio's are from the Horses mouth, i.e. you can read them in the owner manual for 2.2l Safari. So no worries there.
I am not altogether convinced about using kerosene as an antigel in diesel, although I understand that a 30% kerosene mix is good for temperatures as low as 0*F (-18*C) - but then, such recommendations have been circulating since pre-emission-control days. The newer diesels with their sensors and catcons may not take too kindly to being fed a diet of kerosene, even though TML recommends such use (but then they offer a 150,000 km warranty, so I suppose Safari owners would be less terrified ).

In addition, there are no lubricating qualities associated with kerosene, as opposed to diesel. Therefore, it may cause excessive wear on internal engine parts. The higher the concentration of kerosene, the faster the corrosive wear will occur on injectors, diesel injection pumps, valves, cylinder liners etc. I wouldn't really want to risk it.

BS-3/BS-4 diesel fuel is different from older diesel in its lower content of sulphur. To accomplish this, refineries hydrotreat the fuel to desulphurise it. This process increases the wax or paraffin content, which can cause more gelling problems in low temperatures. Both the Cloud Point (CP)and the Cold Filter Plug Point (CFPP) (Fuel School: Cold Filter Plug Point versus Cloud Point) are higher in low sulfur diesel (LSD) and ULSD than in the earlier fuel. Neither does kerosene appear as effective in reducing CP & CFPP in ULSD as it was with high-sulphur diesel.

BP recommends such additives in the attached document. No mention of kerosene.
Fuels_winter_Diesel_Fuel_Additives.pdf

I am personally against mixing kerosene, except in an emergency situation, for cold weather operations. Let's see if the BG 248 comes through...
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Old 23rd July 2010, 23:34   #25
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Default Here is my take on the cold start issue.

First lets make it clear that the engine is just a huge air pump. Please google for the explanation.
In engines with four wire Lambda sensor or Oxygen sensor for closed loop operation from the word go the sensor advices the ECU to put in so much of fuel. Now at high altitudes the density of air is much lesser than at sea level when similar temps are taken into consideration. This would mean that cylinder is not completely filled with air/oxygen as it could have been at sea level. The ECU then compensates for the lack of Oxygen by injecting less fuel. This is recipe for requiring more cranks to start the engine at high altitudes. There is just not enough oxygen or fuel to ignite by compression.
In short its the reduced volume of air that is compressed that causes difficulty in starting. The diesel on its own cannot be the culprit as diesel at high altitudes are legally thinned with kerosene to make it ignite faster at lower temps.
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Old 24th July 2010, 00:08   #26
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There are different reasons why a vehicle would have trouble starting at high altitudes coupled with very low temperatures. The biggest reason is loss of atmospheric pressure resulting in lesser that normal compression inside the cylinder to ignite the fuel along with the ignition aid from glowplugs or spark plugs. To ignite a oxygen rich fuel there requires to be an ideal range of cylinder oxygen + cylinder compression + spark strength/heat from glow plugs. When there is an inadequacy in any of these there could be a delayed start. Cold fuel has a different ignition point temperature this could affect the combustion as well. Last but not the least, yes the ignition timing requires to be altered in addition to changes in the above factors too, which takes time in ECU based ignition systems but unlike stated below the ECU doesnt self correct its settings when in open loop unlike in closed loop, as it mostly works on a single preset map, when its just setting itself using earlier maps.

Hope the above helps...

Last edited by The Wolf : 24th July 2010 at 00:13.
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Old 24th July 2010, 12:53   #27
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I am not altogether convinced about using kerosene as an antigel in diesel, although I understand that a 30% kerosene mix is good for temperatures as low as 0*F (-18*C) - but then, such recommendations have been circulating since pre-emission-control days. The newer diesels with their sensors and catcons may not take too kindly to being fed a diet of kerosene, even though TML recommends such use (but then they offer a 150,000 km warranty, so I suppose Safari owners would be less terrified ).

In addition, there are no lubricating qualities associated with kerosene, as opposed to diesel. Therefore, it may cause excessive wear on internal engine parts. The higher the concentration of kerosene, the faster the corrosive wear will occur on injectors, diesel injection pumps, valves, cylinder liners etc. I wouldn't really want to risk it.
I agree with you, Kerosene does not have anti gelling properties but its thinner than diesel and helps in the flow in the cold, although with all the negatives that you have already described it still has similar cloud point as diesel.

I agree Kerosene should be the last option, but if you can find anti-freeze additives, that should be the first option to use.
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Old 24th July 2010, 15:07   #28
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The CTO, BG India, has kindly forwarded the brochures (*.pdf files) for BG 247 and BG 248 for my reference. I am yet to get a price quote from him, but here are the brochures. The gentleman himself has been to Ladakh multiple times, in vehicles ranging from Innovas to Taveras to Sumos, and he reports having used BG 247 in all these vehicles - and never faced cold start issues. Sounds like we may be on the right track about solving the collective problem of diesel cold starts.

Name:  247.jpg
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0247.pdf

Name:  248.jpg
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0248.pdf

Will update once a firm price quote comes through.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 24th July 2010 at 15:08.
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Old 24th July 2010, 18:14   #29
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BG248 should be around Rs. 750-800, dont know about the DFC prices.
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Old 29th September 2010, 13:02   #30
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Finally received BG247 bottle @Rs.450 each (6 fl.oz., 177 ml, says it's good to treat 40-150 litres of diesel.
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