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Old 4th August 2010, 15:22   #1
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Default Scaling diesel engines to bring down costs: Case for an I5

Mods: Please do decide if this must come in the technical section or if its ok to be in the Indian cars section

Fellow Bhpians,

We have all seen the cost benefits that Fiat, Maruti and Tata have reaped when they deployed Fiats National Engine aka 1.3 MJD simultaneously to raise sales volumes and bring down per unit costs.

Here is a list of some interesting strategies adopted by auto makers w.r.t diesel engines for the volume segment of the market:
  • Fiat: Developed a single 1.3L I4 Diesel engine mated to a FGT or VGT for deployment in Small (Swift, Vista, Punto) and Midsize+ (Manza, Linea) car classes respectively
  • Hyundai: Developed a 1.5L I3 and a 2.0L I4 version of the same engine for deployment in the Verna and Elantra/Sonta/Tucson respectively
  • Tata: Developed the same 1.4L I4 Renault based engine in Naturally aspirated, Turbo Charged and Dicor versions. It also developed a 0.7 L I2 version of the same engine for its Ace.
  • Volkswagen: Developed a 1.2L I3 and a 1.6L I4 version of the same engine for deployment in the Polo and Vento respectively
  • Toyota: Toyota also wants to emulate the volume strategy adopted by Fiat by using its 1.4 D-4D engine in the Etios and Corolla by different stages of tune for each.

Note: I2, I3, and I4 Refer to the number of cylinders Inline within that engine


However, i have noticed that no manufacturer has developed either of the following strategies:

  1. Supercharged or dual turbo version of these engines for deployment in larger variants
  2. Inline Five Cylinder or I5 variants of the same engine for deployment in larger cars
  3. Inline two Cylinder or I2 variants of the same engine for deployment in small cars

To illustrate the possible practicality for such strategies, i have the following examples to offer:
  • Strategy 1 and 2 above, if especially used for Fiats 1.3 MJD engine could develop a new engine that is suited for cars like the ANHC, SX4 and Linea as well. I think a 1.5 L I5 MJD engine could be a cost effective strategy to provide more power to the linea especially.
  • Strategy 3, could be used to develop a 1.0 L I3 engine from the 1.3 MJD or a 1.0 I2 engine from the hyundai CRDI series for deployment in the small cars

My question to the experts:
  • What are the challenges in adding or subtracting cylinders with specific emphasis on developing inline 5 cylinder and inline 2 cylinder engines?
  • What is the impact on NVH and FE if a I5 or I2 is developed?
  • Is this being experimented with by manufacturers?
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Old 4th August 2010, 16:10   #2
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The I2 engine that you are talking about has already been made by Fiat although its only a petrol for now. The Twinair displaces 900cc and can produce 64/84/104bhp depending on application and it is turbocharged. So you got the answer to your I2 thing.
More manufacturers will adopt I2, like Suzuki in the future.

The cost to develop an I5 engine and spend more on balancing it and designing its unique engine mounts outweights the cost benefit.
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Old 4th August 2010, 16:12   #3
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I think strategy 1 here may not be too cost-effective.

how about a larger bore?
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Old 4th August 2010, 16:33   #4
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Mercedes Benz had a 5 cylinder diesel (OM602) in the E250D (W124) that marked Mercedes' entry in India - not sure why that was discontinued though.

Mercedes-Benz OM602 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 4th August 2010, 17:56   #5
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I thought that the Dicor engine is a different beast compared to the NA & TC version in Indica.

I am not much of a mech engineer(the right person to answer the question), but i guess its all in the power delivery structures.
Its well known fact that 3 pots are noisier and more rough than the 4pots.

I mean we also had radial engines with 12 cyl and Wankels. But they dont work in a mileage conscious market.

I believe there were also a lot of playing around with valves in the late 90s where beemers had 4, mercs 5 and audis 6 valves per cyl.

Supercharging is a good idea. However, I believe (from a noob POV), that it works better with a natural cold air. In a hot country like india, the superchargers wont work as efficiently as the air is not as heavy(i.e. cold) to drive the turbines.

The NVH will depend on the crank angle and geometry. My belief is that the 4 pot offered the best of both the worlds and thus became the most popular.

I guess a industry regular can probably answer the 3rd question. Innovation drives any engineering industry,and so should be the case with this one.

Well, flat 4 boxer engines win the engine award pretty often, however,except for Porsche and Subaru, we dont see many other cars sporting them. Guess, in this time of globalization and common platforms, its difficult to be different
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Old 4th August 2010, 18:00   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by designersf View Post

The cost to develop an I5 engine and spend more on balancing it and designing its unique engine mounts outweights the cost benefit.

Thanks. Will you be able to explain this point further with some example if possible?
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Old 4th August 2010, 18:17   #7
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Mercedes, GM and Volvo are already using this strategy.

Mercedes (not anymore) used to have 4 cyl OM611 called 220 CDI, the 5 cyl version was 270 CDI and the inline 6 was the 320 CDI. This was before they switched to the OM651 and the new V6 diesels.

GM has their range of Inline 4-5-6 engines, 2.8 L inline 4 on their compact trucks, the 3.5L I5 version on the Hummer H3 and 4.2L inline 6 for Trailblazer. 600 cc cyl disp.

Volvo has a similar line of I4, I5 and I6 all transverse mount. I believe there are turbo and NA versions of each as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by designersf View Post
The cost to develop an I5 engine and spend more on balancing it and designing its unique engine mounts outweights the cost benefit.
Cost is actually v.v favourable and the I5 has no balance issues.

Last edited by Mpower : 4th August 2010 at 20:55.
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Old 4th August 2010, 18:29   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidkill View Post
[*]Hyundai: Developed a 1.5L I3 and a 2.0L I4 version of the same engine for deployment in the Verna and Elantra/Sonta/Tucson respectively
The Engine used in the Verna is not an Inline 3 cylinder, its a 1500cc I4, and not related to the 2.0 mill that came in the Elantra (FGT) / Sonata (VGT). The engine you are talking about is the one that did duty in the Accent CRDi / Accent Viva CRDi - it was a I3 1500 cc mill derived from the 2.0 I4.

But back to the point you have raised, my take is handling NVH and keeping it to acceptable levels would have been a costly task - if I3 were bad on NVH yet were torquey (remember Accent CRDi?!), it would take a lot of money just to keep the NVH of an I5 within acceptable limits. Everything that goes into the car needs to be improved/ strengthened to handle the additional torque an I5 would generate.

As for chopping couple of blocks and going with I2 in CRDi, dont think anyone tried it so far until Tata came with the Nano. An I2, even in CRDi, would not be powerful enough in a car like, say, even an Alto (I am guessing).

Supercharged / bi-turbo engines are there, but not within the reach of the common Indian. And rightly so, because I wonder how much a super charger or a bi-turbo setup will cost to replace in case it conks out due to bad maintenance - and the brand will take a beating for making "unreliable" cars! This problem will not be there in a Benz or a BMW, the owners can be trusted to take better car than they would for a, say, Swift with twin-turbo.
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Old 5th August 2010, 12:21   #9
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Mahindra I2 CRDI already there !!!

Running in Maxximo. Seems great for another Nano/Magic competitor as well.
Anyone test drove the Maxximo ?

Last edited by dsmatharu : 5th August 2010 at 12:22.
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Old 5th August 2010, 13:11   #10
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VAG is re-releasing a 5 cylinder engine and Fiat group has got a I5 TD engine, which is currently only used in Alfa Romeos and Lancias.

Superchargers are being used by Mercedes (which is the only credit I can give them currently), but this proves rather expensive in comparisson to turbos.

The 1.9 TD of the -fiat group uses 2 turbos in some applications. Plans are to launch the new 2.0 TD, the new 1.6TD and the existing 1.3 TD with 2 turbos like the 1.9, which is a sequential configuration.

Volkswagens 1.4 TSI engine is another one. The SC is for the lower end and the turbo takes over above.

BMW has got a twin turbo 3.0 V6.

Scaling is not as easy as it may look. This is getting very involved when having odd cylinder numbers.
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Old 5th August 2010, 13:32   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
Superchargers are being used by Mercedes (which is the only credit I can give them currently)
Off Topic, but why is that?
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Old 5th August 2010, 13:56   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
Off Topic, but why is that?
when I company on its home market is in the national news on a daily basis for more than a year because of poor quality and promotes quality, which isn't there and tries to pretend to be technology leader when their cars rust as fast as fiats etc, have cars catching fire, not being as safe as much cheaper car (Toyota Yaris faring better than S class) to name a few then I can't give them any credit.
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Old 5th August 2010, 14:54   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post

The 1.9 TD of the -fiat group uses 2 turbos in some applications. Plans are to launch the new 2.0 TD, the new 1.6TD and the existing 1.3 TD with 2 turbos like the 1.9, which is a sequential configuration.
.
What is the benefit of using 2 Turbos as against a configuration of SC + Turbo ? which is better & why ?

Plonking 2 turbos is expensive ? Can we have aftermarket turbos to just add on over the existin turbo in our 1.3 MJD ?
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Old 5th August 2010, 15:36   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidkill View Post
Tata: Developed the same 1.4L I4 Renault based engine in Naturally aspirated, Turbo Charged and Dicor versions. It also developed a 0.7 L I2 version of the same engine for its Ace.
Renault based? On what basis do you say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acidkill View Post
However, i have noticed that no manufacturer has developed either of the following strategies:
  1. Inline Five Cylinder or I5 variants of the same engine for deployment in larger cars
As already pointed out Mercedes had a 5-cylinder version of the OM 616 that Force license manufactured in India.

The upcoming Mahindra world SUV is said to have a 5 cylinder engine, most probably derived from 2.2 L I4 of Scorpio mHawk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acidkill View Post
  1. Inline two Cylinder or I2 variants of the same engine for deployment in small cars
Already done by Tata for Ace. Was initially thought for Nano too but idea was given up later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acidkill View Post
To illustrate the possible practicality for such strategies, i have the following examples to offer:
  • Strategy 3, could be used to develop a 1.0 L I3 engine from the 1.3 MJD or a 1.0 I2 engine from the hyundai CRDI series for deployment in the small cars
Suzuki had asked for a 1 litre, 3-cylinder version of MJD 1.3 from Fiat. Fiat agreed but asked for a price that Suzuki found too high.
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Old 5th August 2010, 16:13   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kri$hna View Post
What is the benefit of using 2 Turbos as against a configuration of SC + Turbo ? which is better & why ?

Plonking 2 turbos is expensive ? Can we have aftermarket turbos to just add on over the existin turbo in our 1.3 MJD ?
Either configuration when properly engineerd are technically virtually the same when looking at the effects.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages when trying to achieve the best.

You can get other turbos for the 1.3. Other than the 90 and 95bhp turbo on the Fiats, in one of the Lancia's the have a 105bhp turbo. Fiat also have a sequential turbo set-up on the shelf for the 1.3 increasing power to 120bhp with good torque gains over the other variants.

To keep the financial requiremtns in bearable limits it might be best turning the existing turbo into hybrid.
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