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Old 7th August 2010, 22:39   #16
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Default Reasons for clutch going kapput

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Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
Like you said, I can move from stand still on a steep upwards incline in 2nd gear in my car - but I wont do that. Not because the engine feels strained even remotely, but for the clutch. It is one heavy duty piece of equipment in Diesels, and replacing it would be costlier than a Petrol car's clutch - why strain it when bumping up the in-gear RPM a bit more wont hurt the mileage at all?!!
I beg to differ. You can lug the engine but not the clutch. Clutch gets ruined in 4 ways as far as I know.
1) Lugging resulting in back and forth movement of the torque smoothening springs ultimately resulting in change in the 6,5 or 4 springs effectiveness. Various designs of springs are there.
2) Wearing of the clutch plate because of insufficient pressure from the pressure plate due to worn out pressure springs or driving with the leg on the clutch pedal resulting in slip.
3) Driving like a maniac and slipping the clutch at each and every traffic light. Slipping clutch at peak torque rpm kills it much sooner.
4) Oil mist on the plate due to some leak of the gear box shaft seal or engine shaft seal. Could also be due to the diesel spray used at service centers.
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Old 8th August 2010, 17:32   #17
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Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
I beg to differ. You can lug the engine but not the clutch.
Its not recommended either way.

engine life will be considerably reduced if you lug them.
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Old 8th August 2010, 18:22   #18
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@doc - Engine should never starve of air or fuel or both; likewise engine shouldn't be strained, this means, never revved too hard or never lugged. Just like the right amount of fuel, the engine should be revved for right amount (medium).
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Old 8th August 2010, 19:50   #19
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Thanks for all the advice and pointers everyone. Sorry about the late reply, the forum subscription notification didn't work and I didn't know my query had got so many responses!

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Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
Check the optimum speed limits given by Ford (am sure it would be there in the 'book'), and keep to it atleast while running in.
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Originally Posted by bhp_maniac View Post
For the run-in period better shifting a bit later also so that the engine doesn't feel loaded.
The "book" seems to be lacking any information on running-in. The only advice given there is: (a) to avoid heavy usage of brake & clutch during first 1,500 kms, and (b) avoid driving too fast & change up gears early. I've asked about this on the Ford Figo Facebook fan page as well Ford Figo | Facebook

Change up gears early would mean shift to a higher gear at a lower RPM, right? Isn't this the opposite of shifting late, i.e. shift to higher gear at higher RPM?

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Originally Posted by vinmechanic View Post
is engine revving up normally while idling or no load condition ? do you experience clutch slipping while accelerating ?
Engine is revving normally while idling. I'm not sure what clutch slipping means, but the clutch hasn't felt "weird" till now.

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Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
Is the problem only while climbing uphill or even on normal flat surface ?
Sometimes even on flat surfaces.

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Originally Posted by sajjt View Post
I felt it very much annoying in Beat, made a complaint to the company and got an ECU re mapping but that too was not a fix and am yet to get the latest version. Now GM has come up with a new version of ECU mapping and gives it to all customers who are complaining about the sluggishness. According to the SVC, the new cars are mapped with this latest software. The new version is far better than the previous ones and the drivability has improved notably as per the owners. I havenít heard about the Figo ECU remapping incidents but you can ask at the SVC if anything available currently
Wow, this sounds very interesting. Do they have different "firmware" software that can be upgraded and patched? Do they do something in the 1st service on similar lines to change the driving characteristics? What all can be controlled by re-mapping/patching the ECU?

I'm reading up http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ur-engine.html (Do you lug your engine?)

In the meantime, my original query remains - how come flooring the accelerator does not increase the engine RPM? Shouldn't the RPM increase every time you press the accelerator pedal?

Last edited by Jaggu : 8th August 2010 at 20:03.
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Old 9th August 2010, 04:45   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saurabhnanda View Post
In the meantime, my original query remains - how come flooring the accelerator does not increase the engine RPM? Shouldn't the RPM increase every time you press the accelerator pedal?
Let me put it this way: What happens to a single-bullock pulled cart that is fully loaded on a upwards incline? It struggles to climb, no matter how well you fed the bullock, or how much you lash out. Add one more bullock, and the cart gets pulled that much better. Add two more, and it gets going.

Conversely for "bi-horse" powered () automobiles, lower the gear, higher the pulling power - if you are in a higher gear at too low a speed, no matter what you do, it cant respond as much.

What do you think will happen when you floor the throttle when you are doing, say, 30-40 KMPH in 5th? Try this in any car, if the car does not stall at 5th in 30, it wil take ages before it responds, right? Try it at 50, and it will move respectably well, right? Why? Because the car needs to be in the right gear for the engine to transfer its power optimally to the wheels.

Each car model / variant has a different set of gear ratio for each gear, that decides how much pulling power or speeding capability a gear has. You may have driven a car whose 2nd gear has a ratio that made it pull well from ~5 KMPH - apparently the Figo doesn't seem to do that. You can try driving another Figo and see how it behaves, though.
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Old 9th August 2010, 11:07   #21
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Originally Posted by saurabhnanda View Post
Thanks for all the advice and pointers everyone. Sorry about the late reply, the forum subscription notification didn't work and I didn't know my query had got so many responses!

The "book" seems to be lacking any information on running-in. The only advice given there is: (a) to avoid heavy usage of brake & clutch during first 1,500 kms, and (b) avoid driving too fast & change up gears early. I've asked about this on the Ford Figo Facebook fan page as well Ford Figo | Facebook

Change up gears early would mean shift to a higher gear at a lower RPM, right? Isn't this the opposite of shifting late, i.e. shift to higher gear at higher RPM?
Running-in is still a hot topic with contrasting views from person to person. But I do believe on the so called pre run-in engines, other mechanical parts need running-in for a perfect mating with the engine. For my DDiS running in, I used the following pattern.

Till 500 km - Never crossed 2500 RPM, Never made it below 1200. Shifting normally around 1600 RPM in all gears.
500-1000 - Took her occasionally till 3000 RPM.
1000-2000 - Took her up to 3500 RPM and occasional flooring also, but never maintained a constant RPM for more than 15 minutes.
2000-3000 - Followed the same pattern, with speeds touching 140 at times.

Shifting late means shifting to higher gears at a slightly higher RPM. Rather than speed, mention the RPMs and gears you shift at. May be it can pour in a bit more suggestions.
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Old 9th August 2010, 12:06   #22
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Originally Posted by saurabhnanda View Post
Wow, this sounds very interesting. Do they have different "firmware" software that can be upgraded and patched? Do they do something in the 1st service on similar lines to change the driving characteristics? What all can be controlled by re-mapping/patching the ECU?

I'm reading up http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ur-engine.html (Do you lug your engine?)

In the meantime, my original query remains - how come flooring the accelerator does not increase the engine RPM? Shouldn't the RPM increase every time you press the accelerator pedal?

If you drive any of the cars I have mentioned it’s very much noticeable this lag. The newer Beat is coming with the latest software version and the same is given to all complaining clients. It's not like different firm wares at the customer’s request, GM had convinced that there is a torque issue on 2nd gear and they are giving it those who feel it's required. I’ve met other Beat owners at the time of a customer meet and few of them feels that ECU remapping is not required for them as they have already accustomed with that kind of driving style where I can’t cope with. The funniest thing is some are still not felt any lag in this.


I've given my car today for the 5K service and for the ECU mapping. I got a 2nd version mapping last time and the car was behaving different after that. 2nd gear performance was improved much but the 1st gear had become now sluggish. I didn’t feel much difference in other gears may be am not able to notice it closely. But with this setting it's become a pain to drive with 4 persons on board especially climbing. I got a TD soon after the remap and we were two guys in the car and didn’t felt any issues but with more load it feels like under powered. Soon I got another call from the SVC that the new version is available but I couldn’t get it done due to time restrictions.


You can ask the SVC for any options are available like this. ECU mapping is not a time consuming affair, it can be finished within half an hour max in case of Beat without opening any hood or panel as the interface connector is just below the dash board. Don’t expect any calls from the SVC for the ECU update without any complaints AFAIK.
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Old 9th August 2010, 16:54   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sajjt View Post
If you drive any of the cars I have mentioned itís very much noticeable this lag. The newer Beat is coming with the latest software version and the same is given to all complaining clients. It's not like different firm wares at the customerís request, GM had convinced that there is a torque issue on 2nd gear and they are giving it those who feel it's required. Iíve met other Beat owners at the time of a customer meet and few of them feels that ECU remapping is not required for them as they have already accustomed with that kind of driving style where I canít cope with. The funniest thing is some are still not felt any lag in this.


I've given my car today for the 5K service and for the ECU mapping. I got a 2nd version mapping last time and the car was behaving different after that. 2nd gear performance was improved much but the 1st gear had become now sluggish. I didnít feel much difference in other gears may be am not able to notice it closely. But with this setting it's become a pain to drive with 4 persons on board especially climbing. I got a TD soon after the remap and we were two guys in the car and didnít felt any issues but with more load it feels like under powered. Soon I got another call from the SVC that the new version is available but I couldnít get it done due to time restrictions.


You can ask the SVC for any options are available like this. ECU mapping is not a time consuming affair, it can be finished within half an hour max in case of Beat without opening any hood or panel as the interface connector is just below the dash board. Donít expect any calls from the SVC for the ECU update without any complaints AFAIK.
Thats an interesting thing about Beat. Can you share the change in FE after this remap. I guess they might have remapped the ecu to pump in more fuel.
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Old 9th August 2010, 17:07   #24
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More than 50 figo cars reported with this same problem.
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Old 10th August 2010, 07:56   #25
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Default I did not make myself clear the first time. Sorry for the confusion.

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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
Its not recommended either way.

engine life will be considerably reduced if you lug them.
What I meant is that a person is capable of lugging the engine but should never ever be done as it will ruin your engine.

We cannot lug the clutch even if we wanted too. The term lugging refers to reduction in piston speed to level below the design parameters of the engine.

Mean piston speed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What Is Piston Speed?


This is what I meant when I wrote you can lug your engine but not the clutch.
The correct sentence should be "Its possible for your to lug your engine but not your clutch".
Engine lugging should never ever be done though especially in a new car which is being run in. Lugging of the engine though will result in damage to the clutch torque smoothening springs.

Hope I have cleaned up the confusion.
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Old 10th August 2010, 12:17   #26
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Originally Posted by bhp_maniac View Post
Thats an interesting thing about Beat. Can you share the change in FE after this remap. I guess they might have remapped the ecu to pump in more fuel.
Y'day I got my ECU re mapped with the latest version, and its far better than the earlier versions. Driveability has improved a lot, but yet to check with 4 persons on board. Being with a wrong ECU mapping I'vent checked the 2nd versions FE, I was getting around 12 Kpl on the first setting but that too, I was not that keen on rpms. Some times it will overshoot to 3k in 1st and 2nd gears may be thats the reason I was getting that low mileage where as the others claims to 15Kmpl even in mixed conditions. Will check the latest FE and update once I have an empty tank. Others are also checking their FE after the remap and will update in the Beat Ownership Thread.
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Old 11th August 2010, 22:52   #27
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Originally Posted by bhp_maniac View Post
Shifting late means shifting to higher gears at a slightly higher RPM. Rather than speed, mention the RPMs and gears you shift at. May be it can pour in a bit more suggestions.
So, to avoid lugging I should shift gears at higher RPMs. But, the Figo manual suggests shifting earlier (at lower RPMs) during run-in. Isn't this conflicting?

Here's what I've been trying to do for the past one week after reading-up about engine lugging:

1st to 2nd gear: ~2,000 RPM
2nd to 3rd gear: ~2,200 RPM
3rd to 4th gear: ~1,800 RPM
4th to 5th gear: ~1,800 RPM

Is that alright/
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Old 12th August 2010, 03:48   #28
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Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
What I meant is that a person is capable of lugging the engine but should never ever be done as it will ruin your engine.

We cannot lug the clutch even if we wanted too. The term lugging refers to reduction in piston speed to level below the design parameters of the engine.

This is what I meant when I wrote you can lug your engine but not the clutch.
The correct sentence should be "Its possible for your to lug your engine but not your clutch".
Engine lugging should never ever be done though especially in a new car which is being run in. Lugging of the engine though will result in damage to the clutch torque smoothening springs.

Hope I have cleaned up the confusion.
Hi Doctor! I dont think I spoke about lugging the clutch either - I meant "strain". I am assuming here that when the engine's RPM is low too and the ECU is trying to kick in (when the gear shifter too vibrates quite a bit - atleast in my Getz CRDi), the clutch too would be under strain. I maybe wrong here, but this is something I was told by someone who knows quite a bit about automobiles - my dad

Quote:
Originally Posted by saurabhnanda View Post
So, to avoid lugging I should shift gears at higher RPMs. But, the Figo manual suggests shifting earlier (at lower RPMs) during run-in. Isn't this conflicting?

Here's what I've been trying to do for the past one week after reading-up about engine lugging:

1st to 2nd gear: ~2,000 RPM
2nd to 3rd gear: ~2,200 RPM
3rd to 4th gear: ~1,800 RPM
4th to 5th gear: ~1,800 RPM

Is that alright/
The RPM seems right - but are you keeping to it on the reverse direction too? Example, you are on 5th at 2500 RPM, and slow down - do you shift to 4th before the RPM falls below 1800 RPM? And do this for every gear? What is the RPM reading when you are in 2nd gear at 10 KMPH?
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Old 12th August 2010, 11:59   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saurabhnanda View Post
So, to avoid lugging I should shift gears at higher RPMs. But, the Figo manual suggests shifting earlier (at lower RPMs) during run-in. Isn't this conflicting?

Here's what I've been trying to do for the past one week after reading-up about engine lugging:

1st to 2nd gear: ~2,000 RPM
2nd to 3rd gear: ~2,200 RPM
3rd to 4th gear: ~1,800 RPM
4th to 5th gear: ~1,800 RPM

Is that alright/
This shift pattern seems to be alright for the running-in. For shifting down, you can select a different set. The thumb rule is never allow RPM to fall down below a safe level, say you can stick on to around 1400 RPM (depends on the engine characteristics) during shifting down. On any gear whenever the RPM drops below this level, shift to lower gear. The effect may be a slight lesser FE for the time being, but will help the engine in the long run. Also, once you've completed a neat 1000KM on ODO, start running her in a vast range of RPMs. Say between 1400 - 4500, but make sure you're not sticking on to same RPM for long time especially the higher section in the band. Happy motoring
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