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Old 23rd August 2010, 19:26   #16
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Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
Manish... Firstly congratulations.

My Accent CRDi had next to no turbo lag. It had much lesser lag than my current car the i20 CRDi.

The accent never ever felt the A/C load either..

It never felt underpowered / sluggish. Even after 4 yrs / 60000 kms, it was faster than a brand new punto in a straight line. How do I know this? I tested it.

Clean / Replace the air filter.

Also, check out this thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...diy-style.html
Awesome-awesome work there dude! I don't understand engines enough to either completely understand the discussion or try it out myself. I would probably end up damaging more things than I repair. And yes, it did "help atleast one person in future". What a tremendous forum this is! As a newbie, I get surprised almost everyday.

However, if I understand correctly, I should ask the service guys to check the solenoid valves/EGR and pray that its not open and if it is, a simple cleaning could take care of it. However, tell me, did it increase fuel efficiency? Didn't see an update from you?

Know what, somehow the smoking problem is there only when the engine is idle or when I rev hard in the 1st/2nd gear but not in the higher gears? I know it sounds counter-intuitive and your first thought might be that revving at higher gears, I am travelling fast enough and the smoke gets dissipated fast so I don't see it. I believed this too but one of these rainy days, I got stuck for nearly 2 hrs around Mahim (I had started from Mahim itself) and I was smoking enough to put 20-yr old trucks to shame. Once the traffic cleared, I notched up some speed and again got stuck at Powai (nearly 15 kms from Mahim). This time (after having driven at decent speeds for 15 kms), the car didn't smoke appreciably. I thought it was very-very weird. Any suggestions?


Yes-yes-yes! When I had first test driven the CRDi at the Mahindra showroom, it felt very powerful even with the AC on, as compared to both the Polo & the Figo (I had test-driven both and for lack of a perfect car decided on a used car); however, after they blundered and put petrol instead of diesel, somehow the power seemed less. As others have suggested, I'll get the turbo checked.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 19:31   #17
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@manishk83: Here are my responses to your queries...

Smoking, fuel efficiency & acceleration issues:

The car has been run on petrol or a petrol-diesel mix for some distance, which would have resulted in pre-ignition damage to the tops of pistons, as well as head, valves, gaskets etc., apart from some likely damage to the high-pressure fuel pump and injectors. How much damage, only an open-and-inspect exercise can tell. If I were you, I wouldn't have picked up the car knowing that it's been run on petrol.

That said, the commonest external (non-engine-block-related) reason for smoking, loss of acceleration and low mileage in this engine is a fouled EGR valve or failed EGR solenoid. The usual remedy is to replace & not repair; running the engine with the EGR system disconnected is a quick test to check whether this is the culprit in the first place - disconnecting the faulty EGR circuit should see improvement in acceleration and mileage, as well as lower smoke. Try this first before exploring other options.

Suspension
The Accent CRDi/Viva CRDi's suspension is extremely robust, and is not known to require shock absorber (damper) replacement at 52k km. My own car had seen abuse on the highways at high speeds over more than 1L km, without needing a suspension job. You say
Quote:
the suspension of the car is just no good
but there is no clarification on what exactly are the issues you are facing. The commonest problem is a knocking sound ("khat" sound) when going over a speed-breaker or pothole, and this is very often related to the engine shield plate which has not been fixed properly. The following edited exchange of PM between csateesh and me a few days ago would highlight the same...

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by csateesh
I drive an Accent CRDi that has completed around 50k kms.

Of late when I break and go over speed breakers I hear a noise only on the right side. I had hear a "tak" "tak" noise when I turn my steering left and right with the car parked.

I suspect the lower arms, tie rod ends and or steering column bush.

Since you have used an Accent Viva CRDi and was wondering if you have any pointers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller
First off, check whether the engine shield plate is properly mounted or not. Remove it and try out the car to see if the noise disappears.

If the noise disappears, then either the shield was not mounted properly, or your engine mountings have worn out and the engine is litting lower down, touching the plate.

If it doesn't, you are likely to have issues with one or more of the following:
1. Tie-rod end (replace if necessary)
2. Steering rack ball joint (replace if necessary)
3. Play in steering rack - loose mounting bolts, or the rack needs lathe work done.
4. Shock absorber dampers gone - (replace if necessary). Lower wishbones are quite durable, they don't usually make the kind of noise you describe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by csateesh
It was an issue with the engine shield plate. It was bent in the middle and when the car went over large speed breakers it made the noise. This has been fixed.
In any case, a 30k INR estimate for even a 4-wheel suspension overhaul sounds ridiculously high. Front suspension overhaul costs at an FNG should usually max out at @12-14k INR including parts, rear suspension max. 7-8k INR.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 23rd August 2010 at 19:33.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 20:21   #18
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Smoking, fuel efficiency & acceleration issues:

The car has been run on petrol or a petrol-diesel mix for some distance, which would have resulted in pre-ignition damage to the tops of pistons, as well as head, valves, gaskets etc., apart from some likely damage to the high-pressure fuel pump and injectors. How much damage, only an open-and-inspect exercise can tell. If I were you, I wouldn't have picked up the car knowing that it's been run on petrol. :( Spilt milk!

That said, the commonest external (non-engine-block-related) reason for smoking, loss of acceleration and low mileage in this engine is a fouled EGR valve or failed EGR solenoid. The usual remedy is to replace & not repair; running the engine with the EGR system disconnected is a quick test to check whether this is the culprit in the first place - disconnecting the faulty EGR circuit should see improvement in acceleration and mileage, as well as lower smoke. Try this first before exploring other options.

Ok! Will try this. Thankyou.

Suspension
The Accent CRDi/Viva CRDi's suspension is extremely robust, and is not known to require shock absorber (damper) replacement at 52k km. My own car had seen abuse on the highways at high speeds over more than 1L km, without needing a suspension job.

Well, if I grade Punto's suspensions at 100, Swift's at 80; mine will be a measly 40. There is no 'khat-khat' sound; however, I can feel every small pothole inside the car. Essentially, the ride quality is bad. And this was confirmed by the service guys when they told me that the shocks are after-market and not original. Should I be worrying that they are after-market at 50k on the odo.


In any case, a 30k INR estimate for even a 4-wheel suspension overhaul sounds ridiculously high. Front suspension overhaul costs at an FNG should usually max out at @12-14k INR including parts, rear suspension max. 7-8k INR.

Hope this helps.
It indeed does help. Am catching up with Drifter over the weekend and post his suggestions, will go the service centre on Monday. Will post updates.

In the meantime, have decided to leave with the suspensions. Once I have enough dole, will look at changing that. Internals first, peripherals later.

The SC guys have also told me that the clutch is hard and will require about 7k for a change. They've also told me that it could be a possible reason for low FE. A probable explanation? Clutch system change at 52k kms?

@Drifter: A good Hyundai service centre in Mumbai would be..?
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Old 23rd August 2010, 22:05   #19
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Accent CRDi users, what engine oil have you been using/used? yundai recommended or some other synthetic/high-grade mineral oil?
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Old 23rd August 2010, 23:53   #20
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I used Gulf Max Td 15w40, its doing fine. Already nearing next change.This time too, will use the same.You can go for Synthetic oil, they are better, last long and are costlier too.

Last edited by agspins : 23rd August 2010 at 23:55.
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Old 24th August 2010, 11:12   #21
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When do you guys upshift? csateesh tells me CRDi's useful band is 1500-2750 rpm. However, my mill only comes into its own at around 1800-2000 rpm & feels losing out of steam at around 3400-3600 rpm which is where I tend to upshift when I'm driving aggressively and at around 3000 rpm when I'm just cruising. Is that affecting fuel efficiency?

Also, I could be mistaking torque for acceleration?? (I'm a Newbie )

Thankyou csateesh for this link: http://petes.in/images/609.pdf

Now I know what the ideal characterstics of the motor should be!

PS: Looking forward to the meeting with Drifter this weekend to get some perspective.
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Old 24th August 2010, 16:39   #22
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
if I grade Punto's suspensions at 100, Swift's at 80; mine will be a measly 40. There is no 'khat-khat' sound; however, I can feel every small pothole inside the car. Essentially, the ride quality is bad.
If my Swift's suspension is 80, I'd have rated the Accent's suspension at 85 in terms of ride comfort - the Swift has a stiffer set-up, and the Accent tended to float slightly in comparison - bump-thumps from the road surface / potholes were better absorbed in the Accent.

If the dampers are indeed reconditioned/faulty, it would be worth the 3500 INR or so that it costs to replace the front pair. Why damage the mountings over a period of time? Originals, Gabriel, Monroe, use any good one - IMO they all work well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
...the clutch is hard and will require about 7k for a change. They've also told me that it could be a possible reason for low FE. A probable explanation? Clutch system change at 52k kms?
A hard clutch does not signify a slipping clutch. My clutch was NOT opened at all for the period the car was with me. Get the hydraulic system bled (and maybe an oil change), and check again. You're probably getting scammed (SCAM Alert "Saar, your car needs a clutch overhaul").
Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
Accent CRDi users, what engine oil have you been using/used? yundai recommended or some other synthetic/high-grade mineral oil?
Mine's always been to Hyundai's co.-owned workshop in Delhi (Hyundai Motor Plaza), and the oil change was always what they supplied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
When do you guys upshift?

...my mill only comes into its own at around 1800-2000 rpm & feels losing out of steam at around 3400-3600 rpm which is where I tend to upshift when I'm driving aggressively and at around 3000 rpm when I'm just cruising. Is that affecting fuel efficiency?
The engine can pul cleanly from @1200-1300rpm - downshift hardly required. The car can cruise from 40km/h to 150km/h in 5th gear all day (and I mean 24 hour periods - mine's done that actually ). At 3600rpm on 5th, the car does approximately 160km/h, and there's still grunt enough to pull till 4000rpm (I've taken it up to over 170 km/h a few times). But I always felt the useful (& economical) rev band was 1200 - 3000 rpm; my upshifts are usually @1800-2500rpm - unless I'm ...

Fuel economywise, I've got a maximum ever of 17.2km/l, and a minimum ever of 11.2 km/l. The summer economy (100% AC) used to be between 12.5(city)-14.5(highway) km/l, and winter economy (without AC) 15(city)-16.5(highway) km/l. I'd been told they could tweak the economy a little more (some cars even report 20 km/l), but I was quite happy with the performance, and didn't want lower performance to get better mileage - so I never bothered to try out whatever tweak was possible.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 24th August 2010 at 16:45. Reason: Formatting
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Old 25th August 2010, 13:57   #23
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Manish, saw your PM and read the thread too. Shamindra has listed all possible solutions and detailed it.

Primarily, the petrol seems to be the culprit. Get the EGR checked and do a de-carb. It might help.

To be honest, a 3 cylinder diesel never excited me.
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Old 25th August 2010, 14:11   #24
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Originally Posted by gd1418 View Post
Manish, saw your PM and read the thread too. Shamindra has listed all possible solutions and detailed it.

Primarily, the petrol seems to be the culprit. Get the EGR checked and do a de-carb. It might help.
.
+1. Even i didnt reply to Manish PM as i already saw tons of info already shared with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gd1418 View Post
To be honest, a 3 cylinder diesel never excited me.
Not really my friend. Viva CRDi with and without Pete's was a lot of fun to drive. After maturing to a 4 pot diesel, i agree Viva was raw, uncouth but hell, lot of fun too
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Old 25th August 2010, 19:25   #25
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OT: 3 cylinders on an M-800 triggered the original aversion to such engines. Those who drove the Accent CRDi had that misconception cured.

Last edited by GTO : 27th August 2010 at 01:21. Reason: Re-opening thread
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Old 28th August 2010, 22:17   #26
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OT: 3 cylinders on an M-800 triggered the original aversion to such engines. Those who drove the Accent CRDi had that misconception cured.
:(( Sorry mods for using SMS lingo but had to do it because that about sums up my mood right now.

And the Mahindra First Choice guys are going to see my side on Tuesday. I'll just blast them off.

First things first, SS-Traveller, csateesh, AbhiJ, agspins, Rovergen, others: Thankyou for the immense help that you guys have been giving me all these days and hoping to get more such help from you.

@drifter: Meeting you today was such an enlightening experience (On a lighter vein: Now I know how to check the engine oil level . That's right, I didn't previously). Also, the first T-BHPian that I was meeting personally and may I add that I was simply blown away by the amount of knowledge that you have.

I can now see why T-BHP is what it is!!! PS: I'll definitely come for T-BHP meets.

Well, here's a summary of my discussions with drifter:

1. Smoke: The car is indeed smoking a lot and the color of the smoke is white. It should ideally have been black.

Diagnosis: Oil is getting into the engine. Which was also verified by the engine oil level. I had had the car serviced 10 days back and engine oil was replaced. After the service, the car has been driven for 1400 kms and when we checked the oil level, it was at the Low mark. Mahindra First Choice, Majiwada Circle, Thane guys will hear from me for this. One gives a premium to the Mahindra guys for "peace of mind" (drifter's words) and this is just not expected of them. Bad suspensions, wear & tear,yes! It's a used car after all. But not a bad engine.

Possible Explanation1: The engine oil might be getting into the engine from the turbo.

Possible Explanation2: The membrane which separates the upper valves from the lower cylinders might not be air-tight.

Possible Explanation3: Piston gaskets might not be tight enough.

2. Acceleration: The acceleration is poor and there is no turbo kick at ~2000 rpm as it should with an Accent CRDi. The turbo-kick should actually be strong enough to pin your chest to the seat.

Should I be taking Drifter's words with a pinch of salt considering that he had Pete'd his car or did others too feel the same strong turbo-kick at ~2000 rpm?

Diagnosis1: Possible turbo failure. Will need to get this checked at HASS. BTW, should I go to HASS or try a reliable mechanic outside? At the last service, HASS guys (Asset Hyundai, Kanjurmarg) told me that there is nothing wrong with the engine and that a "diesel does usually smoke, so no worries". Are they HASS or ASSes? Anyone from Mumbai, any suggestions on a good mechanic for CRDi or a good HASS?

Diagnosis2: I need to get the compression of the cylinders checked. That might be a problem. The compression might not be proper i.e some leakage is possible. Again, the HASS guys charged me 250/- for an engine scan and told me that "there's nothing wrong with the engine". When I went to them 3 days post delivery for a post-delivery service feedback, they asked me if I'm experiencing low pick-up. When I said yes, they told me to bring the car again and that they'll perform an engine scan again. Shouldn't they have known the results of the scan when they charged me for it and shouldn't they have conveyed the same to me? If they again charge me for an engine scan, they too will hear from me!! I'm on fire (both literally & figuratively) PS: I wish I had the freedom to use more than 2 smilies. I've already exhausted my quota.

4. Suspensions: Yes they are bad, but one can live with them for the time being. All they do is affect comfort. Engine rectification is the more pressing need right now and ofcourse, "limited means, unlimited demands" (another smilie pls!)

5. Whooosshhhhh sound: Actually, I forgot to ask drifter about this, will askk the HASS/mechanic I go to next.

6. Overall: I might have got a lemon (I will take liberties here & hope the mods pass it off as a one-off not-following-the-rules) . As everyone else has said, so did drifter: I shouldn't have accepted the car knowing they had put petrol instead of diesel. But you know what guys, back then, I thought the Mahindra guys were atleast honest about accepting their mistake. They could easily have not told me and made some excuse and being a Newbie, I would never have known. Which is why I gave them leeway and didn't protest. But now I know, they actually passed off a lot of things without telling me. This time they'll hear from me.

Guys, like you have done until now, pls keep pouring your suggestions. Will be going to the HASS/mechanic (if I find some good CRDi mechanic by then) on Monday and post the compression test/engine scan, will go the Mahindra First Choice guys on Tuesday.

Important: As they say, all factual inaccuracies are completely & solely my responsibility. As a Newbie, it's entirely possible that drifter might have said something else & I might be reproducing it incorrectly.
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Old 30th August 2010, 21:06   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post


First things first, SS-Traveller, csateesh, AbhiJ, agspins, Rovergen, others Thankyou for the immense help that you guys have been giving me all these days and hoping to get more such help from you.

This is the beauty of this forum. Some of the events have left me dumbstuck. And this is one single reason that I hold this forum with highest regards
Shamindra has provided all the necessary inputs. They are specific too. Now please take this up accordingly with Mahindra and HASS.

You can source the parts outside and get the labour done at HASS. HASS is very very flexible now. They are doing their best to win over their customers.
I have atleast 3 very +ve feedback from my friends circle about the same.

I would like to repeat what GTO keeps saying "God bless competition"

Sorry to hear about your situation but take this up with the right folks to ensure that the job is accomplished with minimal expense

Good luck

Sateesh
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Old 30th August 2010, 21:43   #28
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Hey manishk83,

It was good to meet up. Couple of other things I'd like to add, the CRDi's acceleration even without the Pete's box was enough to pin you to the seat once past 2000rpm.

Like I said suspension was on the stiffer side. But the engine needs to be looked at. Just remember don't give into anything they say. Ensure you get it repaired at their cost and also tell the them about the suspension. Get whatever you can get done from them.

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Old 30th August 2010, 22:09   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
Hi all, I have recently purchased a used 2004 Accent CRDi run 52k from Mahindra First Choice, Majiwada Circle, Thane.

Right after taking delivery, I have given it to Asset Hyundai service center for servicing. Replacements:

1. Air filter, fuel filter, oil filter
2. Engine flush, Srvo (Hyundai recommended) engine oil
3. Engine decarb
4. Timing belt change, timing tensioner too (??? - don't know what this is, Hyundai reco-ed it to me)
5. Radiator flush, coolant change
6. Brake pads, brake oil change
7. Fuel injectors cleaning
8. Air intake cleaning
9. All oils topped-up

For all this, may I just say how very-very thankful I am to this wonderful forum. 8 months ago, I new zilllllcch (absolutely zero!) about cars. And here I am, going against what everyone's suggesting: "Abhi to gaadi li hai, thoda chalao uske baad servicing ko dena...abhi kya jaldi hai". Thank you Team-BHP!!!

Now, the suspension of the car is just no good. The service centre guys told me that the shock-absorbers are local, after-market ones and need to be replaced. Thay have quoted me approx. 30k for them. I need your suggestions: what should I do? Should I use the authorised Hyundai suspension system? If not, can I get a good one outside? Where in Mumbai? How long will it last? Performance?

As an afterthought, among the 9 points above, should something be added?

Now, last but most importantly, the day Mahindra guys were to deliver me the car, their new boy mistakenly put petrol instead of diesel in the car . They took 2 days to completely clean the fuel tank (I suppose they did something in the engine too; fuel tank cleaning couldn't have taken 2 days??!!! But they wouldn't tell me). After this episode, I somehow feel that the acceleration of the car is lower than when I first test drove it. However, since I am an absolute novice, I can't be sure if this is indeed true or is it just a feeling. Dieselheads, please help me out here! What could have gone wrong? What should I do? Will fuel-injector cleaning take care of the problem?

Have given the car for servicing today. Your early suggestions & comments will be very helpful!

Tho' I would still say, the car's a hoot to drive (to a newbie like me, it is!). Actually, I liked it more than both the Punto (my heart!) and Figo (head!) in terms of performance - I test drove them both. I would post my experiences as soon as I get comfortable with the forum's layout - it's still a bit confusing to me!

PS: I idle the car for a minute before starting and 30 secs before konking off. Sufficient, I hope?

Mods, I hope I am posting in the correct forum. Apologies if not and please move it to the correct forum.
Dear friend for suspension you can go to a suspension specialist at oberoi suspension AT Bandra his phone numbers are. 26004068,9920806885, this belongs to mr. Babubhai, he is down to earth person with extensive knowledge,and allways tries to save your money as he can, about your struts he can solve your problems, you may visit his website WWW.Oberaisuspension .Com,at least I am fully satisfied with him,he solved major problems in my suspension and front axles of my CRDI 2004 model 79000kms run sold recently for 2,35000/-,you may quote my name to him for special discount just qoute my name IQBAL SINGH to him.For your Deisel injectors,pump problems you may go to Mr. Manohar at Gajdhar Bandh at Juhu, his garage is next to Vintage Car Garage on the corner of road going towards Gajdhar Bandh he is a well known person and his charges are very very nominal, I had got my CRDI fuel pump serviced with new kit of all rubber washers etc and duly calliberated he chrged me 1300/-,A.S.S. had qouted me 9800/- for the same job.Please try them out.
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Old 30th August 2010, 22:24   #30
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Pardon the delay in replying, Manish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
Well, here's a summary of my discussions with drifter:
1. Smoke: The car is indeed smoking a lot and the color of the smoke is white. It should ideally have been black. (It should ideally have no smoke unless you're accelerating with pedal to floor - then only some black smoke for a few seconds).

Diagnosis: Oil is getting into the engine. Which was also verified by the engine oil level. I had had the car serviced 10 days back and engine oil was replaced. After the service, the car has been driven for 1400 kms and when we checked the oil level, it was at the Low mark.
Possible Explanation1: The engine oil might be getting into the engine from the turbo.
Possible Explanation2: The membrane which separates the upper valves from the lower cylinders might not be air-tight.
Possible Explanation3: Piston gaskets might not be tight enough.
The usual reasons why an engine might lose oil can be:
1) The oil leaks out from the engine onto the ground. Usually would not result in smoke like you describe.
2) Oil leaks from "oily" side to the "watery" side - i.e. into the coolant circulating around the engine block. Usually because of a leaking head gasket. Evident as oil floating in the radiator and coolant overflow tank. Vice versa may also be visible, i.e. coolant gets into oil - the oil discolours/turns milky. Replacing a gasket sorts this out generally.
3) Oil leaks from bottom of piston to top - into the combustion chamber. Due to worn or broken piston rings. Highest possibility of this happening to your car. The engine oil seeps past the rings, burns partially in the combustion chamber, and comes out as smoke from the tailpipe. Expensive to repair this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
2. Acceleration: The acceleration is poor and there is no turbo kick at ~2000 rpm as it should with an Accent CRDi. The turbo-kick should actually be strong enough to pin your chest to the seat.
Quick check: Disconnect the turbo hose - a 2" pipe running along the right side of the car (to your left as you look into the engine bay) - run the car and rev gently to @1800-2000rpm. You should be able to hear the turbo howl as the revs go up, and feel a distinct rush of air from the pipe. Replacing the turbo is an expensive exercise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
there is nothing wrong with the engine and that a "diesel does usually smoke, so no worries".
...and drinks engine oil too. And doesn't pass a PUC test as well. The guy who said that deserves your sympathies - the smoke got to him over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
Diagnosis2: I need to get the compression of the cylinders checked. That might be a problem. The compression might not be proper i.e some leakage is possible.
DO get a compression test done from an independent garage, and have them certify the numbers. If you are getting ready to fight First Choice, you'd better have the weaponry ready.
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Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
...bring the car again and that they'll perform an engine scan again. Shouldn't they have known the results of the scan when they charged me for it and shouldn't they have conveyed the same to me?
An engine scan will NOT reveal broken piston rings or damaged camshafts. At best it can reveal a lower turbo boost, if at all. An engine scan looks at and reports parameters from certain electronic sensors through the engine control module (ECM) - it is notlike a virus scan/spyware scan/CHKDSK on your computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
I shouldn't have accepted the car knowing they had put petrol instead of diesel. But you know what guys, back then, I thought the Mahindra guys were atleast honest about accepting their mistake.
Why don't you try this first? Forget the scans and attempts to repair for a day. Go back to First Choice, and very politely ask them to replace the car with something else in their inventory, which might catch your fancy. It is a fact that Mahindra companies are generally gentlemanly in their approach, and they HAVE owned up to putting petrol in the tank and driving the car - maybe they would not be averse to replacing the car as long as they can do SOME business with you, and make some profit. The alternative seems too expensive - rebuilding an Accent CRDi engine can cost big $$$$ - not less than 40-50k INR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
Will be going to the HASS/mechanic (if I find some good CRDi mechanic by then) on Monday and post the compression test/engine scan, will go the Mahindra First Choice guys on Tuesday.
So what was the outcome of today?

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 30th August 2010 at 22:28.
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