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Old 18th August 2010, 09:55   #16
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Hello All

Bear with me if this OFF TOPIC but I did feel that this could be pertinent here.

I did write to cr@hmil.net on the concern of premature wear and tear due to BS - IV diesel.

After a few days (which they did highlight would be needed) they came back to me saying that they do confirm there would be no effects.

I did ask them the details about the tests that were conducted and the measured parameter.

They declined to share the same but re-iterated the fact stated above

Hope this helps

Cheers

Sateesh
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Old 18th August 2010, 10:07   #17
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Originally Posted by csateesh View Post
I did write to cr@hmil.net on the concern of premature wear and tear due to BS - IV diesel.

...they came back to me saying that they do confirm there would be no effects.
...details about the tests that were conducted and the measured parameter.

They declined to share the same but re-iterated the fact stated above
I would not have expected any different answer to that. Ask any auto manufacturer in India, and the answer would be just the same. The PR people answering your question wouldn't know what your (or my) concern is, and their answers are always stereotyped.

As Sutripta said, a technical specialist in Bosch/Delphi or in an oil co. should be able to answer this.
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Old 18th August 2010, 10:19   #18
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
..
As Sutripta said, a technical specialist in Bosch/Delphi or in an oil co. should be able to answer this.
I checked with the service centre folks Shom and they said the pump and injectors for Accent CRDi weren't from the above.

I wasn't sure whether to believe these guys are take it with a pinch of salt

I am trying to contact someone whom I know in HMIL to see if they can get some confirmation from the technical personnel

Thanks

Sateesh
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Old 18th August 2010, 10:41   #19
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Originally Posted by sanagg1 View Post
I have some information from friends

The adulteration is done not only with K-Oil but also with spent lub.oils mixed with KO so the quality control may not be very easy for adulterated fuels.
But I am very sure it does not harm the engine by way of lubricity issue. However, choking your costly injector may be a more dangerous threat.

cheers
I am not too worried about adulterated fuel. Going by experiences of others, when fuel is heavily adulterated, the filters choke up. In the safari, there are series of filters, starting with a diesel water separater which are very very good. So any sign of trouble, these will choke up first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by csateesh View Post
I checked with the service centre folks Shom and they said the pump and injectors for Accent CRDi weren't from the above.

I wasn't sure whether to believe these guys are take it with a pinch of salt

I am trying to contact someone whom I know in HMIL to see if they can get some confirmation from the technical personnel

Thanks

Sateesh
I do not expect them to give you any hard data. Hopefully, Spike and BD can shed more light on this factor. After all they are the engine guys.
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Old 18th August 2010, 11:05   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csateesh View Post
I checked with the service centre folks Shom and they said the pump and injectors for Accent CRDi weren't from the above.

I wasn't sure whether to believe these guys are take it with a pinch of salt

I am trying to contact someone whom I know in HMIL to see if they can get some confirmation from the technical personnel

Thanks

Sateesh
The 3-cylinder 1.5 CRDi that Hyundai used in the Accent CRDi is from VM Motori.
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Old 18th August 2010, 13:40   #21
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Okay, so it has 460 lubricity scratch diameter. I guess the lower number the better.
Now the oil company will meet this specification, but I am not sure whether after adulteration this parameter will be met.

BTW, what is the cold filter plugging point?
Its the cloud point for diesel: At what low temperatures does diesel crystalises into wax when flowing through a filter.

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
Why don't we get the oil companies, Bosch and Delphi answer our concerns.

Incidentally, lots of truck owners run their vehicles on Kerosene (and engine oil) mixture. When I had asked them about fuel pump life, they laughed and said that there is only a slight decrease, and from the economic PoV, they were faaaar ahead.

Cummins used to sell an additive to run their engines on SKO.

Regards
Sutripta
Oil companies will follow the specifications and automobile manufacturers focus on meeting the emission norms, I dont think any component in an engine is specific to BS3/4, its known worldwide what technology to use under what fuel to meet the norms. Other countries have gone through the same change without any challenges.
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Old 18th August 2010, 13:54   #22
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Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Its the cloud point for diesel: At what low temperatures does diesel crystalises into wax when flowing through a filter.
but isn't 6 degree and 18 degree to high a temp. for example, I may go on a mountain trip during summers, and temperatures fall to 2-3 degree C!



Quote:
Oil companies will follow the specifications and automobile manufacturers focus on meeting the emission norms, I dont think any component in an engine is specific to BS3/4, its known worldwide what technology to use under what fuel to meet the norms. Other countries have gone through the same change without any challenges.
Actually, independent studies took place in the US after many vehicles, esp older ones started reporting premature failures of critical components, esp high pressure fuel pumps.
At that time the scratch parameter was found to be 600+ instead of the required 500 or lower. California emission norms decree that ULSD has 10ppm sulfur. At 50ppm, we are 5x of what USA uses.
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Old 18th August 2010, 14:15   #23
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
but isn't 6 degree and 18 degree to high a temp. for example, I may go on a mountain trip during summers, and temperatures fall to 2-3 degree C!




Actually, independent studies took place in the US after many vehicles, esp older ones started reporting premature failures of critical components, esp high pressure fuel pumps.
At that time the scratch parameter was found to be 600+ instead of the required 500 or lower. California emission norms decree that ULSD has 10ppm sulfur. At 50ppm, we are 5x of what USA uses.
Usuallly fuel specifications are set at levels that ensure most users will be free of wax problems(for this parameter), most of the time. Occasionally users will have problems in cold weather, but it is impractical to give complete protection to everyone and under all conditions.

IMO, we are the last of the countries to migrate and therefore, I hope we have taken all the learnings into account.
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Old 18th August 2010, 20:15   #24
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Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Oil companies will follow the specifications and automobile manufacturers focus on meeting the emission norms, I dont think any component in an engine is specific to BS3/4, its known worldwide what technology to use under what fuel to meet the norms. Other countries have gone through the same change without any challenges.
A bit more than just meeting emission norms. Manufacturers have to give a warranty to the customer, and, I think, an undertaking to the government that the vehicle will continue to meet emission norms for xxx Km with nothing more than regular servicing.

However, we are not talking of new engines, but effect on older engines. Googling a bit shows that the major problem seems to be elastomer failure. The seal might cost Rs. 5, (and a new seal made of a polymer not affected by the new fuels might cost Rs. 10) but the effect of its failure would be rather more.

My Rs. 0.02

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Sutripta
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Old 23rd August 2010, 22:28   #25
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tsk1979 ,you made me think a lot!

btw will the bs4 fuels have that much impact on the fuel pump/injectors and performance of the car?

And to others who suggested 2s oil,dont you think the engine will emit more smoke due to this?
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Old 24th August 2010, 10:13   #26
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Default Emission test readings

Guys, below might be off-topic, as am not well-versed with this topic, but my recent emission test seemed has got me thinking (of course, other than why was i lax at not renewing it on time, hehe).

Back to topic, the emission test done on 26th Dec,2009 reads K value of 0.15 and HSU as 6.25. The test performed recently, on 21st Aug, 2010, reads K as 0.27 and HSU as 10.96, nearly twice the previous reading. The engine and oil temperatures for the latest readings are a shade lower, but am not sure if they pose any bearing on the resulting values.

Additional info: The vehicle undergoes periodic service during May of every year. Considering the older reading taken 7 months after service, and the current one being 3 months after service, the expectation is the latest reading should've been lesser, or atleast on par with the older reading.

With the vehicle (a Tata Safari LX, BS-3), driver (that's me), fuel station (IOC outlet, Mysore Road, opp.BHEL industry, B'lore city), emission test centre (Balaji, opp.Rajajinagar RTO, B'lore) as well as the person who conducted the test too being the same, the only variable here is/was is the fuel, which was of BS-3 grade earlier, and is (hopefully) BS-4 now.

Any thoughts?
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BS-4 fuel lubricity and effect on engine life-etest.jpg  


Last edited by dkamath : 24th August 2010 at 10:15.
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Old 24th August 2010, 11:58   #27
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@dkamath : Apart from fuel and oil temperature there is one more variable between the two readings and that is the RPM value.

In 1st test RPM is below 2900 most of the time and in 2nd test it is above 3100 most of the time.

IIRC in the last two emission tests at two different testing centers the guy asked me to increase RPM just to 2K RPM so don't know what should be the correct RPM to measure at.

BTW : Note the standard value and the wide margin between measured value does't the standard look too high for BS3 /BS4 ?
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Old 24th August 2010, 12:33   #28
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
@dkamath : Apart from fuel and oil temperature there is one more variable between the two readings and that is the RPM value.

In 1st test RPM is below 2900 most of the time and in 2nd test it is above 3100 most of the time.

IIRC in the last two emission tests at two different testing centers the guy asked me to increase RPM just to 2K RPM so don't know what should be the correct RPM to measure at.

BTW : Note the standard value and the wide margin between measured value does't the standard look too high for BS3 /BS4 ?
And your vehicle too has aged an year, more carbon in the system.

The real test would be to have 2 Safari's, BS3 and BS4 having run the same KM's and on their respective fuels.

Last edited by dadu : 24th August 2010 at 12:34.
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Old 24th August 2010, 13:49   #29
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Thanks for the replies, guys! Just to add, and of course, presuming that the test system is the same everywhere in B'lore, the operator performing the test (he takes over the steering wheel while i watch with eyes open, hehe) holds a device with an LCD screen, instructing him to raise or lower the RPM. And it's got the instantaneous RPM readings being displayed too. Not sure why the RPM's taken for the tests are different this time. Anyways, since the readings are very well within the tolerable limits specified, am ok for now .
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Old 15th October 2015, 13:39   #30
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Default Re: BS-4 fuel lubricity and effect on engine life

Is there any other 91+ RON fuel apart from Speed 97? "HP Power" and "Speed" are just normal Petrol with additives.

Is BS3 fuel lesser than 91 RON?
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