Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 16th August 2010, 13:53   #1
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,955
Thanked: 15,648 Times
Default BS-4 fuel lubricity and effect on engine life

I drive a BS-III Tata safari.
Under BS-III norms, the sulfur content should be below 350ppm
Currently metro cities have BS-IV which means diesel has sulfur below 50ppm.

Now this is a cause of worry for me.
Have any lubricity tests been done on this fuel using High Frequency Reciprocating rigs etc.,
Apparently, from what I gather, diesel with low content of sulfur does not lubricate the fuel system well, and this can cause premature fuel pump failure.

Now the obvious answer is use some additives like System D etc.,. But the problem is that there are no test results for such additives.
I was searching through google, and found a study on the efficacy of additives. It appears, that many additives do not make any difference, and some even degrade the lubricity of fuel.
I think thats the reason Tata motors strictly says not to use additives laden diesel like Xtramile etc., as it can damage the fuel system.

Now I am searching for something to add to this BS-IV fuel so that my fuel pump does not die a premature death.
The study I found is attached here
Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

But it deals mostly with additives available in the west, and was done with ULSD in the US, which has 15ppm or lower sulfur content as opposed to 50ppm of BS-IV.

Incidentally, all studies indicate that even 1% mixing with biodiesel works wonders for lubricity. Since its not available in India, what can I add?
System D? but then there is no data available about it? Used engine oil?... Again according to the study it does not make any difference.
Vegetable oil(1000ml in a 60 liter tank) does increase lubricity, but most information on the net is from people who actually run their cars on discarded vegetable oil from restaurants.
Not something I would like putting in a Common rail engine!
Example -> Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever
So the quest to preserve my engine in the wake of BS-IV fuel continues. As a stop gap measure, I will be filling in from Noida and Gurgaon, which have BS-III fuel and not BS-IV fuel.

Any engine specialists, people who actually know mechanical stress and stuff please post your suggestions.
A solution is important, because in India kerosene adulteration is rampant, and that also reduces the lubricity of fuel.
tsk1979 is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2010, 14:40   #2
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kanpur
Posts: 7,163
Thanked: 3,759 Times
Default

My own reaction will be that do not worry. When India could get away with unleaded even in cars with valve seats which were not hardened, then anything goes. Reducing Sulphur to 50ppm should not bug you. Remember that many manu8faftureers sell the same vehicle in BS3 and BS4 cities, as they cannot be bothered with two product lines.
sgiitk is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2010, 14:56   #3
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,955
Thanked: 15,648 Times
Default

But what if the BS-IV fuel has kerosene added. That will kill lubricity further.
So a mfr may be happy with fuel pump lasting 100,000kms, but ideally as a long term consumer, I would want it to last atleast 150,000kms
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2010, 16:08   #4
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kanpur
Posts: 7,163
Thanked: 3,759 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
But what if the BS-IV fuel has kerosene added. That will kill lubricity further.
So a mfr may be happy with fuel pump lasting 100,000kms, but ideally as a long term consumer, I would want it to last atleast 150,000kms
As for K-oil stick to reputed pumps, and avoid pumps on the highway like the plague. In terms of durability there is always a cost benefit payoff. Even Mercs are no longer engineered on a cost no object basis!
sgiitk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2010, 16:13   #5
Senior - BHPian
 
Gansan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chennai
Posts: 3,428
Thanked: 878 Times
Default

Are there any similar issues with BS III Vs BS IV petrol too?
Gansan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2010, 16:21   #6
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,036
Thanked: 386 Times
Default

Tanveer ,The only difference between BS4 and BS3 Safari is water cooled EGR so presumabely the fuel pump of Safari is capable of handling the BS4 fuel and TML might have already tested with BS4 fuel before rolling out BS4 version. so you need not bother much.

This Saturday I had a long chat with one senior engineer at Concord (on sideline of my broken bumper issue) He told me that water cooled EGR was there in the initial prototype of 2.2 VTT and it was designed as BS4 but later removed in BS3 vehicle for cost saving.
amitk26 is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2010, 23:00   #7
BHPian
 
RedMM340's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: on the move
Posts: 459
Thanked: 23 Times
Default

TSK 1979,

The low sulpher diesel definitely has much lower lubricity and will damage your fuel pump with continued use.

Add about 50-100ml of 2 stroke oil with each fill up of ULSD fuel, and you will be o.k.
RedMM340 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2010, 10:21   #8
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,036
Thanked: 386 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMM340 View Post
TSK 1979,

Add about 50-100ml of 2 stroke oil with each fill up of ULSD fuel, and you will be o.k.
Will there be any side effect such as injector gumming and catcon chocking due to 50-100 ml of 2T oil ?
amitk26 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2010, 11:09   #9
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,955
Thanked: 15,648 Times
Default

I do not want to put any oil till I know of a test report which proves that it has benefit. Normally HFRR is used to test for lubricity and scratch-ability.
Many additives can make the lubricity worse. In absence of independent testing data, I am not sure I am comfortable with putting the additive.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2010, 16:33   #10
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,652
Thanked: 244 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I do not want to put any oil till I know of a test report which proves that it has benefit. Normally HFRR is used to test for lubricity and scratch-ability.
Many additives can make the lubricity worse. In absence of independent testing data, I am not sure I am comfortable with putting the additive.
You answered it yourself, the lubricity of the Diesel fuel is not measured by the amount of Sulphur in it. It's measured by the ISO 12156-1 standards i.e. a parameter, Lubricity corrected wear scar diameter (WSD 1.4) at 60oC, microns, which is the same for both BS3 & 4. i.e. 460 max.
dadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2010, 17:02   #11
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,955
Thanked: 15,648 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadu View Post
You answered it yourself, the lubricity of the Diesel fuel is not measured by the amount of Sulphur in it. It's measured by the ISO 12156-1 standards i.e. a parameter, Lubricity corrected wear scar diameter (WSD 1.4) at 60oC, microns, which is the same for both BS3 & 4. i.e. 460 max.
When a test was carried out with ULSD in the US, it was found that the WSD was 700+!
Adding biodiesel brought it down to 400, some additives brought it down to 460-470.
The pdf file I attached is the test report.
Now, I could not find any reports about the WSD of Indian ULSD and simple BS-3 Low sulfur diesel(350nm).
Also be aware, on highways, this fuel will be mixed with kerosene, which will further increase the WSD, leading to shortening of Fuel pump life.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2010, 17:31   #12
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,652
Thanked: 244 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
When a test was carried out with ULSD in the US, it was found that the WSD was 700+!
Adding biodiesel brought it down to 400, some additives brought it down to 460-470.
The pdf file I attached is the test report.
Now, I could not find any reports about the WSD of Indian ULSD and simple BS-3 Low sulfur diesel(350nm).
Also be aware, on highways, this fuel will be mixed with kerosene, which will further increase the WSD, leading to shortening of Fuel pump life.
Lets forget US for a while. This should clear all your apprehensions, OMC's are bound to adhere to these specifications as defined by the Petroleum Ministry, GOI.

BS-4 fuel lubricity and effect on engine life-e4-norms.gif

PS: This snapshot is from the Auto Fuel policy, 2003.
dadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2010, 17:48   #13
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,955
Thanked: 15,648 Times
Default

Okay, so it has 460 lubricity scratch diameter. I guess the lower number the better.
Now the oil company will meet this specification, but I am not sure whether after adulteration this parameter will be met.

BTW, what is the cold filter plugging point?
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2010, 20:07   #14
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 3,506
Thanked: 2,072 Times
Default

Hi,
Why don't we get the oil companies, Bosch and Delphi answer our concerns.

Incidentally, lots of truck owners run their vehicles on Kerosene (and engine oil) mixture. When I had asked them about fuel pump life, they laughed and said that there is only a slight decrease, and from the economic PoV, they were faaaar ahead.

Cummins used to sell an additive to run their engines on SKO.

Regards
Sutripta
Sutripta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2010, 07:19   #15
BHPian
 
sanagg1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HIMALYAS
Posts: 274
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
.. but I am not sure whether after adulteration this parameter will be met.
I have some information from friends

The adulteration is done not only with K-Oil but also with spent lub.oils mixed with KO so the quality control may not be very easy for adulterated fuels.
But I am very sure it does not harm the engine by way of lubricity issue. However, choking your costly injector may be a more dangerous threat.

cheers
sanagg1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Life's like that: Real life anecdotes. Sam Kapasi Shifting gears 533 8th December 2017 23:19
Apollo launches Amazer 4G Life - Claimed life of 100,000 kms Tushar Tyre & Alloy wheel Section 12 26th June 2016 18:39
Effect of Air Filter condition on Vehicle fuel economy. mclaren1885 Technical Stuff 19 25th April 2013 22:45
NANO effect and EURO effect in Small Car market allwheeldrive The Indian Car Scene 8 15th June 2009 22:29
OOty effect..Victim of bad fuel.. Advice needed DRC Technical Stuff 7 9th October 2006 11:40


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 20:37.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks