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Old 21st August 2010, 18:55   #16
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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
BTW you need to do a complete change, not just a drain and refill. They need to run fluid through the transmission while running the transmission to change all the oils, otherwise there will be some remaining in the Torque converter.

I also want to add that many people on this forum who are not used to automatics have been advising using the 2 and L buttons for over taking, more power etc. This is not the intended usage and it will damage your transmission of not used judiciously.
Absolutely correct on both points.
A total change is must - that includes draining ALL of the earlier fluid by running the engine as mentioned here:
How To Change Automatic Transmission Fluid

Also, we have kickdown in AT for overtaking. 2 & L are for slopes and steep slopes.
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Old 21st August 2010, 19:32   #17
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The A/T would have a TCM (transmission control module) to regulate it. Ask your service centre to run a scan on it to see if it turns up any error codes. There could be other issues than a simple oil change, such as a faulty solenoid or a faulty sensor.

Edit: Of course, the primary DIY check is to see if the ATF level is running low or not.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 21st August 2010 at 19:37.
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Old 28th September 2010, 11:20   #18
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@ Sen :
Just checking if your problem got solved as yet or not.
Any diagnosis or findings - do post them here along with a service report (wherever you got it done).

Thanks.
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Old 17th November 2010, 16:38   #19
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Originally Posted by sen2009 View Post
I have tis 2005 Santro Automatic, done about 40,000 KM. A number of problems have surfaced in the recent past .....
So glad you started the discussion. Wifey has a 2007 Santro Xing AT with similar symptom list, but quite mild.

- Gear shock during up-shift & down-shifting is jerky and sometimes delayed, especially down-shifting when braked at speeds >50 kmph.
- Sudden, split-second loss of acceleration during up-shift, as if the AT is hesitating to move into the next gear.
- Poor pick-up on cold mornings (but recovers quickly in a few mins of driving)
- Car feels reluctant to move into "R", and acceleration in R doesn't feel smooth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sen2009 View Post
I have made about 6 visits to Modi Hyundai in Thane Pokhran Road with these issues. Nothing has been worked out.
I feel your pain - the tech advisors at the Hyundai A.S.S are a big joke. They do not know anything other than the routine service process. Even a small thing like adjusting the AC belt tension to remove the squeal took 3 trips and each time they kept the car for 3 days or more "for observation".

And a Santro AT is quite rare in my neck of the woods and so they blame everything on the AT - "this is normal behavior for AT vehicle, Sir". Some gems from Hyundai tech over the years:

- You should keep OD in off, enable it only when climbing hills etc
- Petrol engines should not be revved hard like diesel engines
- AT vehicles are generally for solo-driving, you will feel reduced pick-up if your entire family gets in.

I have a few more, but you get the idea. I've complained about the annoyances with the AT right from the third service back in 2008, and every time they say they checked and there is no problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackasta View Post
Drain and replace the AT fluid (No top ups).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
when is the last time you changed the automatic gear oil? If it was long ago, drain and flush the oil completely and change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
1) is the ATF red or black in colour
2) Does the car jerk when you move from standstill?
I have an embarrassing confession to make - despite being a TBHP member, it never occurred to me once to check the ATF level

So, last weekend I read up on the proper process to check the ATF level....
- warm the car to normal operating temp (about 10 min urban driving)
- park on a level surface and engage hand-brake
- move AT to "P" and then shift it through all available slots "R-N-D-2-1" with a few seconds on each slot to ensure oil circulation for each gearing
- then leave it at N with the engine idling
- pop the hood and check the ATF level. Clean the dip-stick and check three times to ensure you are getting a consistent reading.

Guess, what - our ATF is way over-filled. The level was 1 inch above the max level for "hot". I am just glad that it didn't blow a seal.

Next step was to research the net on how to remove the excess ATF. I didn't want to drain it - messy and might need refilling but I couldn't locate the HWS 3314 ATF anywhere here.

So following the advice on some forums, I bought a 2m length of plastic tubing of a size that fits into the ATF dip-stick hole. Once the engine cooled down, I inserted one end into the hole all the way in and dropped the other end to the floor and started siphoning off the excess ATF into a clear plastic bottle and drained off about 400 ml of fluid. Warmed up the engine with a 10KM drive and checked the level - it is now exactly half-way between the min & max marks.

The transmission is now very smooth. The gear shock during shifting has become quite soft now (no jerky sensation) and more importantly the car up-shits and down-shifts right on cue without any hesitation. I will test it for two more days and slowly top-up the ATF to the max mark. I probably do not need a flush as the car has only 22000 km on the odo.

Such a simple thing - an ATF over-filling, and Hyundai A.S.S couldn't diagnose it even after repeated complaints. Speaks volumes about the so called 'technical expertise' at their service centers.

Cheers.
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Old 17th November 2010, 16:59   #20
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Default Santro Xing AT (Automatic) Trouble Shooting

I found the Service Manual for Hyundai Atos (Santro) on the web and it had good technical description of the AT. Basically line-pressure is a key input to the TCM along with Throttle, Speed, Oil Temp, etc. When the ATF is over filled, the line pressure increases which changes the AT's behavior.

Unfortunately, the TCM diagnostics does not check for proper pressure - it only checks if the pressure sensor is working or not. (Same for speed, temperature etc, I guess.) So Hyundai guys might just hook up the TCM to their computer and since it doesn't show any error code, they say everything is fine. I seriously doubt if any of them bothered to check the ATF level.

Why was it over-filled in the first place? - This is my guess. During the 2nd service, some good-intentioned grease monkey checked the ATF level. But he didn't follow the proper procedure for it and got a erroneous level reading, and he topped it up - most likely on a cold engine, resulting in an over-fill.

Anyway, here is the trouble-shooting chart from the manual for anyone who might stumble on to this thread in future.

Need Help for Santro Automatic-santroattroubleshooting.jpg

As you can see, incorrect ATF level and line-pressure outside specified range are the main causes for a majority of the symptoms.

Cheers
Teja
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Old 17th November 2010, 17:19   #21
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Guess, what - our ATF is way over-filled. The level was 1 inch above the max level for "hot". I am just glad that it didn't blow a seal.
No ! Seriously is this really an issue ?
I mean even i have observed that the level was above the max level for hot even in my car, and even showed it to a couple of 'technicians' (a.s.s. as well as outside). Both exclaimed it was looking 'okay'. I did not bother much since the car is behaving perfectly. touche.

This is useful information and i'd also appreciate if other Santro AT owners check their ATFs by the process detailed above and confirm where their ATF level stands.

Quote:
Next step was to research the net on how to remove the excess ATF. I didn't want to drain it - messy and might need refilling but I couldn't locate the HWS 3314 ATF anywhere here.

So following the advice on some forums, I bought a 2m length of plastic tubing of a size that fits into the ATF dip-stick hole. Once the engine cooled down, I inserted one end into the hole all the way in and dropped the other end to the floor and started siphoning off the excess ATF into a clear plastic bottle and drained off about 400 ml of fluid. Warmed up the engine with a 10KM drive and checked the level - it is now exactly half-way between the min & max marks.
Brave soul. I would be very skeptical about doing something like this without advice myself!
Why I mention is that this high ATF level seems to be more of a common occurance to me now.

Quote:
The transmission is now very smooth. The gear shock during shifting has become quite soft now (no jerky sensation) and more importantly the car up-shits and down-shifts right on cue without any hesitation. I will test it for two more days and slowly top-up the ATF to the max mark. I probably do not need a flush as the car has only 22000 km on the odo.
If it indeed is a problem and you have gotten a solution with proven results, thanks much!
Please update this thread on periodic basis if you continue to find the behaviour good/normal or otherwise. Might be helpful to others also to follow suit.

Quote:
Such a simple thing - an ATF over-filling, and Hyundai A.S.S couldn't diagnose it even after repeated complaints. Speaks volumes about the so called 'technical expertise' at their service centers.
Cheers.
Agree. enough said ..
We seriously need some places where people have sound technical know-how esp of the AT boxes.
Taking it to a.s.s. seems pointless now given all they do is replace oil and filters, and give it a wash. If done outside, it'll be done at like half the cost.
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Old 18th November 2010, 09:32   #22
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Originally Posted by jigbarai View Post
No! Seriously is this really an issue? I mean even i have observed that the level was above the max level for hot even in my car, and even showed it to a couple of 'technicians' (a.s.s. as well as outside). Both exclaimed it was looking 'okay'. I did not bother much since the car is behaving perfectly. touche.
I would think so. I forgot to mention one thing - the ATF seemed kind of "frothy" or "foamy" when I first checked it. There were bubbles sticking to the dip-stick. Apparently this is a big no-no and an indication of improper ATF level. If your ATF level is a lil bit over the max mark and you do not see bubbles, I would say you are fine.

I siphoned 400ml into the bottle, and I think I may have spilled 100ml or so in the process - that is half liter from a 5.2l capacity i.e. nearly 10% over-fill! I don't think that would be good for the transmission.

Quote:
This is useful information and i'd also appreciate if other Santro AT owners check their ATFs by the process detailed above and confirm where their ATF level stands...... Why I mention is that this high ATF level seems to be more of a common occurance to me now.
Yeah, I'd also like to know what the ATF levels are in other Santros. When I checked the ATF level yesterday, it was in the proper range but it still had some bubbles - though not as many as there were before. I guess the fluid is slowly settling down. Maybe it is best to drain and refill, just to have some peace of mind. But I am unable to locate either the recommended spec ATF or a decent garage that knows how to do it properly.

Quote:
Brave soul. I would be very skeptical about doing something like this without advice myself!
Well, I didn't have any other option. I have no faith in the Hyundai A.S.S anymore, and I asked around a couple of garages about ATF drain and re-fill and they had never done one before. And my wife complains on a daily basis about the issues, so something had to be done - that's how I found this thread, searching Team BHP for Santro Automatic problems

Quote:
If it indeed is a problem and you have gotten a solution with proven results, thanks much! Please update this thread on periodic basis if you continue to find the behaviour good/normal or otherwise. Might be helpful to others also to follow suit.
Yes, I was also surprised to see an immediate improvement in drive-ability. I thought I am being biased, but my wife (who is the main driver of the car) also noticed the change on the first drive itself - she says that the gear shock during shifting is hardly noticeable and that the hesitation during acceleration is gone. But she also said that pick-up is still not up to the mark, especially with the A/C on. But then, she had been driving a Corolla and then a Grand Vitara for 10 years in the US - so I do not consider her benchmark for pickup to be valid for the Santro.

I will monitor the ATF thingy till I am completely satisfied. I am still a bit concerned that the ATF still shows some bubbles, I'll feel happier if and when they go away. I am scouting for the ATF fluid (JWS 3314 spec) to have it on hand. And I have downloaded some videos on DIY ATF drain and re-fill, just in case.

Quote:
Agree. enough said ..
We seriously need some places where people have sound technical know-how esp of the AT boxes.
Taking it to a.s.s. seems pointless now given all they do is replace oil and filters, and give it a wash. If done outside, it'll be done at like half the cost.
I could fill pages and pages about my dissatisfaction with the Hyundai A.S.S - inflated charges, untrained & clue-less technicians, unasked for items on the invoice (engine flush, engine bay cleaning, tire & bumper coating, petrol additive, window washer soap etc etc - always a fight to get them removed). But a bigger issue is that they expect you to leave the car there for days together even for small issues. Even for regular service, they want have the car the entire day - very poor operations planning. And they are 18KM away from my place - just one round trip needs ~4 lts of Petrol. They do offer a pickup & dropoff service, but I've seen how those maniacs drive.

I have decided not to use the A.S.S for regular maintenance anymore. I am confident I can do a much better job myself. The car also has a 5-year extended warranty that is valid till Sep-2012, and the A.S.S guys say that it will be void if we do not service our car with them every six months (and shell out a min of 2000/- every time). But I didn't see any point in throwing good money after bad money (the 7K I paid for the extended warranty). If at all a warranty issue comes up, I will deal with it then.

Will keep this thread updated on any new developments/information.

Cheers
Teja
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Old 18th November 2010, 22:40   #23
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@Teja: Thanks for the detailed write. I should keep this in mind if my Santro AT decides to act up..
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Old 16th April 2014, 20:35   #24
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Default Re: Need Help for Santro Automatic

Sorry to bump up an old thread
Scoured the local parts shops for Esso JS 3314 (JWS 3314). Not in stock.
Called up at Hyundai Motor Plaza (Okhla) - they only had 3 L in stock. Samara Hyundai (Okhla) did not even have any in stock.

Seems one has to pre-order it. Planning to go tomorrow to pre-order 5 L of oil. Cost is Rs 2614/L
Now, if only someone can advise the part number of the transmission pan gasket and the filter?
Is that all that is required?
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Old 17th April 2014, 15:02   #25
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Default Re: Need Help for Santro Automatic

Sorry for back to back post. I got an interesting fact regarding change of Hyundai Santro automatic oil change.
The process involved is as follows:
1) Start the car and drive for at least 30-45 minutes till the transmission oil is warm/hot.
2) Put the car into P, and lift it up on a jack - just a couple of feet - enough for one person to get underneath it.
3) Ask that person to locate the transmission case drain plug underneath and unscrew it, while collecting the oil in a can. Ask the person to not let the whole of the old oil drain out, but to cap off the plug as soon as around 500 ml is collected.
4) Now as soon as the oil has started draining, pour in the new oil Esso JS3314 (Part No. JWS3314) from the top.
5) Keep checking the level of oil as you pour, as soon as the indicator on the stick shows a little past max, ask the guy at the bottom to start draining again.
6) Iterate steps 2-5 until all the new oil is in (starting quantity approximately 5L).
7) Once in, get the car down, and ask your friend to cycle through the gears from P to L repeatedly, with the car running (brake pressed).

Some interesting facts:
1) No you dont need to change out the gasket - in fact there is no gasket! - at least as we know it.
2) No you don't need to change out the oil strainer (filter) inside the transmission pan.
4) No you dont need to clean the magnet.

The seal between the transimission case and the transmission pan is made using a "liquid gasket". It's a small bottle of liquid gasket cement. Cost Rs 19350/- But the good news is you don't need to break this seal open for a normal oil change.
The oil strainer assembly is for Rs 1248/- - again not needed unless you are rebuilding the transmission.
Cost of other parts I did not ask.

The oil itself came to Rs 13,300 for 5 L.

I have pre-paid for this as counter sale. The HSS have ordered it from Hyundai, and the oil is on its way - expected in 4-5 days.
Now , need to ask my FNG to get this done.
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Old 17th April 2014, 22:21   #26
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Default Re: Need Help for Santro Automatic

And here is the relevant extract from the Service Manual
SERVICE INSPECTION EKTC0140

AUTOMATIC TRANSAXLE FLUID REPLACEMENT
  1. Remove the drain plug and drain the ATF while the engine is stopped.
    [COLOR=red]NOTE[/COLOR]
    The fluid can not be drained completely.
  2. Replace the drainage plug and tighten it with the specified torque.


    Tightening torque : 44Nm (430kgfcm)
  3. Replace the same quantity of specified fluid as was drained from the filler tube.


    Specified ATF : ESSO JWS3314


    Reference : Total quantity of fluid 5.2L
    [COLOR=red]NOTE[/COLOR]
    • Do not mix different kinds of oil.
    • Using a different type of ATF may cause problems with the clutch and brake.
  4. Start the engine and allow it to idle for at least five minutes.
  5. Lift up the vehicle. Drive the engine gradually until the engine speed reaches approximately 50 km/h in the “D” range; then depress the brake pedal to allow the engine to idle. Release the brake for about 10 seconds in the “R” range, and depress the brake again to allow the engine to idle. Repeat this sequence of steps two or three times.
  6. Repeat steps 1-5 above twice.
  7. Now check the ATF level.
    [COLOR=red]NOTE[/COLOR]
    The fluid level check must be carried out while the engine idles and after the transaxle has warmed up.
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Old 1st May 2014, 09:23   #27
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Default Re: Need Help for Santro Automatic

Based on my recent experience, expecting 2-3 litres of oil will drain out by itself is wrong. At best you will get a yield of 1/2 litre when removing the drain plug.
The trick is to start an already hot engine and put into P. This forces the oil to churn, leading to more output at the drain plug end. Wait for the trickle of oil to become drips before putting the drain plug back in again.

Now comes the tricky part. Keep a funnel handy, and measure the oil drained into litre capacity water bottles (bisleri). Then pour in close to that quantity. Cycle through gears without starting the engine. Next Jack up one front wheel. Wedge stones on the other three wheels. Then start engine, and let it warm up to normal range, gear lever in P position. Check oil level at HOT marker. It will likely show it has not reached the minimum mark. Cycle through the gears. The jacked wheel will spin. Wait for speedometer to show 50kmph. Then stop. Check oil level at HOT marker after waiting for a bit. You may see that it's reached between the two marker spots. If not, then switch off engine and pour in some more oil and do the above procedure again.
Do not overfill.

Remember: Under no circumstances should you actually drive the car until you are completely sure that the oil level is between the min and max in the Hot range.
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Old 6th May 2016, 14:54   #28
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Default Re: Need Help for Santro Automatic

HI All
This is a problem being faced by my friend
He has a Santro Xing 2003 Petrol AT July make and odo shows 59000 KM , he is the single Driver barring 3000 - 4000 KM He only drive ..
Off late he is facing an issue of engine stopping randomly , he could not find a pattern when it stops , as it stopped when he slowing down , when he is going at normal speed , when going upward on a flyover , while coming downward from a flyover, with AC, without AC . and he is feeling a kind of jerky behavior at times ..
He made rounds to 3 Service centres of Hyundai in Bangalore , the Kalyan Nagar one , Mahadeva Pura one and the one near Ring road corner .. but not even once they could reproduce the problem so everytime they are checking the scanner saying some wiring loose connect , cranking sensor wiring is loose etc and tightening .. still problem is reoccuring ..
He is using car very sparingly because of this issue .. for a second opinion he took it to Mahindra First Choice centre in whitefield , atleast they are spending time in checking every part , they thoroughly checked the fuel pump/filter checked other fuses .. still they are facing the stopping issue in their test drives .. they said they will check the ECM part now
when engine stops he can change gear to neutral and crank , it immediately starts ..
What could be the reason for this problem and which other aspects to be checked .. could there be an issue with Transmission mechanism !!..
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Old 9th May 2016, 20:52   #29
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Default Re: Need Help for Santro Automatic

Hello
Great to find this thread
Just bought a second hand 2003 hyndai santro AT for my wife
Cost about 1lac
55k done
Family owned
Drove in evening traffic and was smooth
I checked the oil in evening seemed light brown
The car has beem regularly serviced
I have bought this car for my wife to practise befor i invest in a new car
Is there some instructions i must tell her to watch out for while driving or any care i must take to ensure it atleast works well for a year or so
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