Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10th October 2010, 18:54   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MALTA
Posts: 11
Thanked: 0 Times
Default Brake pedal failure in the Gypsy

I own a Maruti Gypsy, and recently I have had the most unsolvable brake problem. When I turn the wheel while driving my brake pedal has to be pumped once before I have any brakes. This only happens while turning, if I go straight the pedal stays firm. Even when we lifted the jeep and turned the wheels the pedal stayed firm.

I have changed both wheel bearings, Pads, disks, flexible brake hoses, and caliper. There is no play in either of the wheels. The problem is only coming from the right wheel as blocked it from the braking circuit the problem solved it self. I cannot keep it like this as it is braking only on 3 wheels and the jeep pulls.

Please Please Please I have talked to a few mechanics here in Malta where I live and no one can solve this problem. any suggestions would be very welcome.

Namaste

David.
mrgizzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2010, 20:19   #2
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 3,506
Thanked: 2,072 Times
Default

^^^^^
Hi,
Truly weird. And interesting.

What happens if
A) You apply the brakes, and then turn.
B) You turn, then straighten out, and then apply the brakes.

Does the phenomenon occur if you jack up all four wheels, engage 4x4 (so that all wheels turn), start and engage gears, and 'drive'.

Regards
Sutripta
Sutripta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2010, 21:34   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MALTA
Posts: 11
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

a. When I apply the brakes then turn the pedal stays firm.
b. If I turn then straighten out then apply the brakes I have to pump the pedal once before I get a pedal.

c. When we jack the jeep up engage the 4x4 and turn the pedal stays firm.

This only happens while driving in 4x2 or 4x4 on the road.
mrgizzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2010, 22:18   #4
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 3,506
Thanked: 2,072 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgizzer View Post
a. When I apply the brakes then turn the pedal stays firm.
b. If I turn then straighten out then apply the brakes I have to pump the pedal once before I get a pedal.
These two together mean that steering is pushing the brake pads away from the rotors. Normally the pads lightly touch the rotor.
It is not a warped rotor pushing away the pads, because it works fine when going straight.
Excessive play in the wheel bearings can cause this, but you have changed all that. Still, check for play at the wheel in both horizontal and vertical plane.
Short of physically examining the vehicle, can't hazard a guess.


c. When we jack the jeep up engage the 4x4 and turn the pedal stays firm.

This only happens while driving in 4x2 or 4x4 on the road.
IMHO, easiest way of checking would be to simulate driving with the vehicle remaining stationary. Jack up all four wheels, start engine, engage gear and 4x4 (the front wheels must turn), 'steer', and check brake pad position.

OT. - Are you a DIY guy? What are labour rates like in Malta?

Regards
Sutripta
Sutripta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2010, 23:39   #5
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,618
Thanked: 10,789 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgizzer View Post
The problem is only coming from the right wheel as blocked it from the braking circuit the problem solved it self. I cannot keep it like this as it is braking only on 3 wheels and the jeep pulls.
@David: Primary question: Does the problem happen whichever direction you turn the steering wheel, or is it just in one direction?

A few quick DIY checks (as Sutripta asked, I hope you DIY, or mechanics don't charge an arm & a leg in Malta!).

1. Isolate the front left wheel cylinder from the hydraulic circuit, but leave the front right wheel cylinder circuit operational. See if this solves your problem. If it does, we may be looking at a master cylinder issue (since the front right & left wheels are activated by one of the circuits of the dual circuit MC; the other circuit activates the rear wheel brakes - odd setup in a Gypsy - usually dual circuits work diagonally).

2. Check the front right flexible hose again - it could be getting stretched and pulling in air when the wheels turn one way (reason why I asked the primary question). Also check if it is twisted/kinked when the steering wheel is turned. Swap left to right and check if necessary (the problem should now occur with your left wheel, after the swap).

3. Check the hydraulic fluid distribution joint (where all the pipes - from the 4 wheels and the 2 MC circuits meet) - see if any kinks are present.

4. Stupid check (I presume you've done it already) - see if the front wheel flexible hoses are at least 1 to 1-1/2 inches clear of the tyres with the steering fully turned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
...steering is pushing the brake pads away from the rotors.
One way may be because the discs are not rotating true - axle damage?
@David: Any hard knocks to the front diff tube(s) before this trouble started?
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2010, 00:18   #6
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MALTA
Posts: 11
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

When I isolated the front left wheel the problem still occured, then when I isolated the front right again the problem was solved. That is how I figured that the problem was coming from the front right wheel. I have changed almost everything on that side, rotors, pads, caliper, wheel bearing, and the top and bottom bearings of the wheel, and there is not play that is noticeable in the wheel. When the truck is jacked and running in 4X4 and I turn the wheel there is no problem, only on the open road. with the weight of the car.

I believe that there must be something causing the pads to move away from the rotor and that is why It only happens when I turn. I just cannot figure out what else it can me. is there any possibility that something is happening in the axle that would be causing this?

I even changed all the bushing on the leaf springs and front stabalizer bar as I noticed that there were some play in them. I really appreciate any help as this is really messing with my head.

regards

David
mrgizzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2010, 00:23   #7
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MALTA
Posts: 11
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

I did have a really bad wheel bearing on the left side and the top bearing on the right wheel was busted and replaced.

Could the really badly damaged wheel bearing on the opposite side cause this?

Or could the top bearing which is in the box have caused this if it was bad for some time?
mrgizzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2010, 12:47   #8
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,618
Thanked: 10,789 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgizzer View Post
...top bearing on the right wheel was busted and replaced.
When the right wheel bearing was damaged, did you notice any damage to the axle stub/bearing collar as well?
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2010, 09:39   #9
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MALTA
Posts: 11
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

When I changed the front left wheel bearing no visible damage, also when I changed the front right top bearing there was no damage other then the busted bearings. I am so confused.


Since when I isolate the front left wheel from the braking circuit, the problem is still there, and when I isolate the front right the problem goes away I have to believe that the problem is from the front right side. But I cannot find and visible damage anywhere.

Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.
mrgizzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2010, 11:03   #10
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,618
Thanked: 10,789 Times
Default

@David, the best options I can think of is:
1. The flexible hose of the right front wheel has an issue - stretched / kinked / internally blocked; or
2. The section of the hydraulic joint distribution box (6-way joint) to which the front right brake hose is connected, has an issue; or
3. The right front axle stub (spindle) may have a problem - ??bent.

Of this, apart from the hoses, #2 & #3 are old components. Since yours is a frustrating experience, why don't you try replacing these (swapping with another Gypsy if possible, before actually spending on them) and checking again?

@Sutripta, any suggestions apart from the above?
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2010, 12:46   #11
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,752
Thanked: 7,473 Times
Default

Did you check the master cylinder and the lines to the problematic wheel? Do the bleed test with wheel turned and see how it is.
Jaggu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2010, 21:38   #12
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MALTA
Posts: 11
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

Guys I really appreciate all that you have wrote, and I have checked everything. obviously there is something in the axle that myself and or my mechanic have not found.

Mechanic rates in Malta are not so bad but unfortunately, my only option remaining is to change the complete front axle which is going to cost me 280 euro for a second hand one. and I am goint ot put all the new components which I bought on it. As soon as it is done I will let you guys know what happens. until then if you can think of anything else it would be greatly appreciated.

Namaste
mrgizzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th November 2010, 14:38   #13
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MALTA
Posts: 11
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

So I changed the whole axle, and the problem is still there, also I changed the master cylinder and the problem is still here. I do not know what else I can change to solve this problem. It is so frustrating, any more suggestions?
mrgizzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th November 2010, 21:53   #14
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,618
Thanked: 10,789 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgizzer View Post
So I changed the whole axle...also I changed the master cylinder
...any more suggestions?
Did you try these? I'm running out of suggestions... Maybe you can try PM'ing ex670c for any suggestions/solutions/opinions!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
@David, the best options I can think of is:
1. The flexible hose of the right front wheel has an issue - stretched / kinked / internally blocked; or
2. The section of the hydraulic joint distribution box (6-way joint) to which the front right brake hose is connected, has an issue;
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2010, 17:57   #15
Team-BHP Support
 
Rehaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 22,376
Thanked: 22,590 Times
Default Re: Brake pedal failure in the Gypsy

Any more progress on this mrgrizzer?

The first thing i am wondering is if the "firmness" in the brake is caused by the brake booster not being as effective. (How blocking off the front-right wheel would resolve this, i dont know!).

Is one of the vaccuum pipes to the booster damaged or being moved around when you steer?

cya
R
Rehaan is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brake pedal Wobble rajesh1868 Technical Stuff 12 12th July 2010 10:00
Vibrating Brake pedal!! What reasons? Deeps Technical Stuff 6 5th August 2008 23:41
Santro: Return spring for Accelerator and brake pedal? ajith Modifications & Accessories 18 2nd April 2008 20:20
Need Help: Brake pedal pulsating!!! stevie Technical Stuff 4 27th October 2006 20:41


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 11:56.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks