Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 7th December 2010, 14:40   #16
BHPian
 
kaushikr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 119
Thanked: 34 Times
Default

If the idea is to disable EGR because it recirculates exhaust gases with soot and other particulates, then as amitk26 has pointed out, the engine oil will take care of it. As we are not talking about performance in this thread : An EGR does not cause damage to the engine, if that is the real concern, but not having it causes damage to the environment.

In some engine designs, a part of recicuration happen due to overlap in the opening of intake and exhaust valves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by govigov View Post
How does the EGR help in keeping the combustion temperature under control?
Combustion temperature is reduced by reducing the amount of oxygen in the intake air by recirculating the exhaust gases, but keeping the total air mass level of the intake on the higher side. This reduction is temperature is the reason for reduction in NOx.

Disabling an EGR is very tricky business. Even if the the valve stem were cut off or disconnected, the ECU will consider the EGR opening position to calculate the injected fuel, so that is not the best way IMHO. Modifying ECU is the cleanest way forward.

Also, to dispel any wrong notions, implementing and incorporating EGR into an engine requires a huge amount of engineering, design, testing and calibration effort and it is in no means a cheap solution.

Last edited by GTO : 9th December 2010 at 13:45. Reason: Removing only quoted post as its on its way to deleting
kaushikr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2010, 14:47   #17
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Pondicherry, London
Posts: 64
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

I think I posted on another forum a long while back (possibly's Jaggu's) some comments--
But basically:

EGR's only help the manufacturer meet his new design target--- after that they start putting more crap than good into the intake- over an engines actual working life. I believe they lessen the engines efficiency and thus actually add to emissions rather than subtract!!

To get rid of the "Dastardly Device"- as I once called it, very simple:

Put a blanking plate (stainless steel-- 3mm would be ok, quite easy to make, using the egr mounting as a template) between the EGR and where it is mounted to the engine--- (Oh and put a standard gasket in front and back of the plate with plenty of gasket sealent)

the engine has a built in chamber that routes some of the exhaust from the exhaust manifold to the back of the engine- the EGR is bolted to this chamber.

Leave the rest as it is-- i.e water cooling, actuator etc...

The ECU will keep on opening and closing the valve- and the water will keep on circulating!!
kulvinder singh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2010, 14:54   #18
BHPian
 
Maverick1977's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 832
Thanked: 249 Times
Default

This is an eye opener for many I feel. However will the fuel effficiency go down in the long term if the ERG is removed?
Maverick1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2010, 15:01   #19
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,031
Thanked: 381 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
EGR's only help the manufacturer meet his new design target--- after that they start putting more crap than good into the intake- over an engines actual working life. I believe they lessen the engines efficiency and thus actually add to emissions rather than subtract!!
And that new design target is reducing nitrogen oxide but before we block EGR it needs to be quntified how much benefit the removal gives.
How much the fuel efficency goes down due to EGR ? Do you have any figures ?

Does reducing Nitogen oxide emission 100% of time outweighs the emission due to consumption of slightly more fuel ?

IMHO it is just like putting a K&N filter and expecting 10 BHP gain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

Put a blanking plate (stainless steel-- 3mm would be ok, quite easy to make, using the egr mounting as a template) between the EGR and where it is mounted to the engine--- (Oh and put a standard gasket in front and back of the plate with plenty of gasket sealent)

the engine has a built in chamber that routes some of the exhaust from the exhaust manifold to the back of the engine- the EGR is bolted to this chamber.

Leave the rest as it is-- i.e water cooling, actuator etc...

The ECU will keep on opening and closing the valve- and the water will keep on circulating!!
Would it not result in engine check light ?
amitk26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2010, 15:58   #20
Senior - BHPian
 
govigov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cochin!!!!!
Posts: 1,314
Thanked: 431 Times
Default

Thanks Kaushikr, that makes sense.

Is there an easier way of disabling the EGR than putting blanking plates / spacers? kulvinderji, it might be easy for you, but not easy for the rest of us. :(
govigov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2010, 17:59   #21
BHPian
 
kaushikr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 119
Thanked: 34 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

Put a blanking plate (stainless steel-- 3mm would be ok, quite easy to make, using the egr mounting as a template) between the EGR and where it is mounted to the engine--- (Oh and put a standard gasket in front and back of the plate with plenty of gasket sealent)

the engine has a built in chamber that routes some of the exhaust from the exhaust manifold to the back of the engine- the EGR is bolted to this chamber.

Leave the rest as it is-- i.e water cooling, actuator etc...

The ECU will keep on opening and closing the valve- and the water will keep on circulating!!
kulvinder singh, has this been tried on a vehicle? This procedure should still trigger the CEL. If it hasn't, then do you mind sharing the details, like which manufacturer's engine has this been tried on, and photos if any?
kaushikr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2010, 19:16   #22
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,031
Thanked: 381 Times
Default

As someone here said EGR is a cheap solution

Before I sign off from this thread just to let you know cost of a 90mm EGR valve used in BS3 safari is 19,000Rs and water cooled version is even costlier
so by no means it is a cheap solution.

And this cost is for a vehicle which is known to have cheapest spare costs in India you can imagine costs from other vehicle manufacturers.

I am not considering the R&D costs which goes in choosing right EGR valve for the engine and designing ECU software for operating the same.
amitk26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2010, 23:28   #23
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Pondicherry, London
Posts: 64
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Well, isnít this thread becoming fun, sure were all learning new thingsó


So for my pennyís worth: (Though I refrain from going into long technical details- this is all available on the net, surprisingly- more written about the conís than the proís)


Moral Issue:


Reduction of NOx----- Canít argue against that.


But some basics:
EGRís have a greater effect on Petrol engines than on Diesels. (Look it up on the net)
1) For Diesels the problem is that, since EGRís work effectively by slightly cooling Combustion Temperature and thus reducing NOx- they have the opposite effect on PMís (Particulate Matter) these need the higher temperatures to effectively burn off. Which is why the specific new engine oils were developed- not to get rid off the PMís i.e. clean them up- But to slow down the degradation of the Lubricating oil due to greater PM contamination.


SO how much more NOx has been produced from the production of the newer oilsóand how much more is being produced from making the damn things (EGRís) themselves??


2) Engine manufacturers are required to meet certain targets by legislationóthis only applies to the BRAND NEW ENGINEóUnder STANDARD and specific testing conditions. I am sure we can all surmise that an Engine starts to wear the moment it is firsít started!!- and also that engines will function in varying ways depending on a variety of factors- Climate, Air condition in a locality, drivng styles/habits, maintainance habits etc..


So that it cannot in the real world consistently be within the exact target as prescribed by the legislation.




This thread started because the originator noticed the amount of soot and sludge built up when cleaning the EGR- and wondered how much of this is going into the Intake manifold and then the chamber. His suspicion tells him that this is not GOOD!!


Had he opened up the Intake manifold- he might have fainted from Shock!


Now the simple point is: When the Manufacturer takes his brand new engine to be tested and certified for the Emissions Target- does anyone (in their right mind) assume that the manufacturer puts that much soot and sludge into the inlet manifold- and rest of the engine. Especially since Legislation does not require him to???------- Personally, I think not!!

Here is another little question: Does a dirty air filter- have an effect on the efficiency Ė and thus Emissions?


Well Iíve seen an air filter that had not been changed/cleaned in 120k kms. And I have seen a Intake manifold with EGR at 15Kóthe Intake Manifold was a hell of a lot dirtier! (In fact is there any point in having an air filter!!)




SO REAL MORAL ISSUE:

What is worse--- Reducing NOx /emissions at the point of NEW ENGINE CERTIFICATION- so that the manufacturer can have a Pat on his back- OR -Avoiding the increase in emissions as a result of the EGR contaminating the Intake when the Engine is the consumers (and not the manufacturers anymore) responsibility!!!!

Back to some answers: Easiest way to knock out the EGR is to detach the electrical connector>
This however will give you a constant warning light- and Iím not sure whether this is part of the Second or Third Cycle shutdown (i.e will the ECU shut down the engine when you try to start it second or third time) donít know yet,- will try to find out by tomorrow. If not then just disconnect it and live with the light being on all the time.


As to benefits:
Well everyone who has done it swears there is an increase in efficiency (just check the net) i.e better FE. But theoretically higher combustion temperatures actually mean better efficiency!!!!!

óPersonally: When new (and properly run in- another different issue) My DDiS gave me around 18. By around 10k it was around 16 and stayed there. After disabling the EGR and also cleaning the Intake Manifold my FE is back to around 18 and stays there!


Actually Iíve converted mine to inject a bit of water instead of Exhaust Gasóbut am still refining the process.. More anonÖ..
kulvinder singh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2010, 23:37   #24
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,746
Thanked: 7,449 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Actually Iíve converted mine to inject a bit of water instead of Exhaust Gasóbut am still refining the process.. More anonÖ..
NOW things gets interesting! More details please! Always wanted to learn more on water injections.
Jaggu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2010, 23:55   #25
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Pondicherry, London
Posts: 64
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Will do- so far havn't been able to get good soldering of copper to ss plate for heat exchange between exhaust gas and water. So just waiting for some moulding equipment and decent quality copper- and solder etc.. to arrive from abroad--
thing works very well but disintegrates after about 20mins at full temp!!-- I get around 30% increase in efficiency!!!- not bad huh!!
kulvinder singh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2010, 00:00   #26
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,746
Thanked: 7,449 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
I get around 30% increase in efficiency!!!- not bad huh!!
Gulp 30% more! That's like a huge gain. Cant wait to hear and if possible see some of the details.
Jaggu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2010, 08:00   #27
Senior - BHPian
 
govigov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cochin!!!!!
Posts: 1,314
Thanked: 431 Times
Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Thanks singhji, was thinking on the same lines, disabling EGR theoretically should give more FE and better engine oil inside the engine. it is like a nozzle which is connected to the inlet side of the air intake to the pistons, correct? why not just seal shut the nozzle?
govigov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2010, 09:06   #28
BHPian
 
DIY Guru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ranchi
Posts: 29
Thanked: 3 Times
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
I have heard that disabling EGR helps up the power or is it the other way round
Disabling the EGR helps by increasing the power, efficiency and life of the engine.

The EGR is closed under low load/RPM conditions. In high load/RPM the EGR opens up, directly letting the exhaust gases from the engine (not from exhaust pipe) into the intake manifold. This replaces some of the air in the combustion mixture with exhaust gases. The exhaust gases include large portions of Nitrogen (N2), Water Vapor (H2O) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) with a small portion of Carbon Monoxide (CO) from incomplete combustion, Hydrocarbons (CxHy) from unburnt fuel, Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) from excessive combustion temperatures, Ozone (O3), and Particulate matter (mostly soot which is carbon particles).

Most service centers offer engine decarbonising to remove the carbon deposits off the engine cylinders. The process includes running the engine with some sort of decarbonising liquid. But this hardly works. If one may find an experienced car mechanic/engineer, he'll tell you that the engine has to be opened and the carbon deposits (which becomes hard like diamond) have to be removed using a blunt tool physically in order to 'effectively' decarbonize it.

Hence,
1. The carbon deposits reduce engine life (The main concern)
2. The carbon deposits reduce efficiency over time (As the carbon deposits restrict smooth piston movement).
2. The exhaust gases reduce performance (As they replace the oxygen) but it 'may' be marginal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
My Safari has a irritating noise from smaller EGR while new ones gets bigger.Lucky people.
Hmm.. what kind of noise? The EGR shouldn't contain any moving parts except the valve.
DIY Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2010, 09:36   #29
BHPian
 
DIY Guru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ranchi
Posts: 29
Thanked: 3 Times
Thumbs up Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Will do- so far havn't been able to get good soldering of copper to ss plate for heat exchange between exhaust gas and water. So just waiting for some moulding equipment and decent quality copper- and solder etc.. to arrive from abroad--
thing works very well but disintegrates after about 20mins at full temp!!-- I get around 30% increase in efficiency!!!- not bad huh!!

Whoa!!! sounds like a very different solution. Can't wait to see some pics and info on it (Jumping like a child on Christmas morning). Do keep us posted on the proceedings of the project.
DIY Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2010, 09:41   #30
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,031
Thanked: 381 Times
Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Edit :Kulvinder Singh Ji few other peopel have done this mod , You can find links here on T-BHP itself but none of them reported any improvement leave alone 30%. So you need to asses how scintific the power / fuel efficiency tests are.

Anyway there are people who report 10 -20 BHP power increase or X% mileage improvements by various such mods as putting K&N filter , Triphase or bolting a vortex creating device and there is a dedicated thread on " Dude I bolted .. BHP" . So until the test is in controlled condition the claim is unverified at the best specially when others have reported results to the contrary.

Theoretically also disabling EGR should affect only top end power at sustained usage and that too marginally.

Anyway I have few comments / questions on the points you made

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Well, isn’t this thread becoming fun, sure were all learning new things—
Sure it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
So for my penny’s worth: (Though I refrain from going into long technical details- this is all available on the net, surprisingly- more written about the con’s than the pro’s)
And not surprisingly most of these should be from US around 2006 - 2008 where mostly gasoline engines are used in SUV/Trucks am I right ?
And this is just before EPA norms were being tightened much later then Europe . Also most of these posts mention that EGR is effective in California and in colder climates not needed , India is hotter even in winters then California. Any way I do not buy this climate argument at all becuase once engine is heated the target it to keep combustion temperature below 2500 deg Fahrenheit so climatic difference of 40 - 60 deg Fahrenheit hardly matters in a hot engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

EGR’s have a greater effect on Petrol engines than on Diesels. (Look it up on the net)

1) For Diesels the problem is that, since EGR’s work effectively by slightly cooling Combustion Temperature and thus reducing NOx- they have the opposite effect on PM’s (Particulate Matter) these need the higher temperatures to effectively burn off. Which is why the specific new engine oils were developed- not to get rid off the PM’s i.e. clean them up- But to slow down the degradation of the Lubricating oil due to greater PM
contamination.
Nothing is farther from truth then this
Lets look at 2 facts.

1. Any car manufacturer wants to keep manufacturing costs low and components minimum.
2. Petrol / Gasoline engines are able to meet BS3 /Euro 3 guidelines without EGR for ages now. My personal example is Opel Corsa we owned it was Euro 3 when in India Euro 1 was enforced. There was no EGR in that engine.

Mostly in Diesel cars EGR is introduced to lower the combustion temperature to reduce NOX.

Also Diesel engine oils for Euro 3 / Euro 4 vehicles have more detergent content that is to cleanup the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

SO how much more NOx has been produced from the production of the newer oils—and how much more is being produced from making the damn things (EGR’s) themselves??
While I do not have any figure myself and I think neither you do have it is falacious to assume that more Nox is created by increasing the quantity of detergent additives in oil.
Manufacturing anything no doubt creates some pollution it mining the ore , refining , casting , forging , machining etc but for making EGR this pollution is no more then what is used for making a home plumbing gate for water pipe. EGR is precision machined and microprocessor controlled so manufacturing cost is more.
Also controlling pollution during mass manufacturing is a general phenomenon and not restricted to EGR , if not EGR then also cylinders , pistons , tyres and seats will create some emissions and general practices in plants is required to control them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

2) Engine manufacturers are required to meet certain targets by legislation—this only applies to the BRAND NEW ENGINE—Under STANDARD and specific testing conditions. I am sure we can all surmise that an Engine starts to wear the moment it is firs’t started!!- and also that engines will function in varying ways depending on a variety of factors- Climate, Air condition in a locality, drivng styles/habits, maintainance habits etc..
True , but engine manufacturers test engines for lakhs of KM in cumulative testing to ensure and decide on serviceability of the engine.Also this testing is done in road tests on target market.
There is a predefined service interval where oil change and filter change is specified , In may last 2.5 years of driving a vehicle ( purchased new at that time) I have not noticed any increase in Nox emissions.
I have changed Oil between 10 -15 K Kms and filter at 20K interval as specified by manufacturer.

I compared this to others on the T-BHP 2.2 VTT Safari thread and the change is negligible even for vehicles more then 50K on Odo.

I don't think that other vehicles will be much off the mark in this regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

So that it cannot in the real world consistently be within the exact target as prescribed by the legislation.
Yes it can be the constant in real world with in prescribed range if proper maintenance is done

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

This thread started because the originator noticed the amount of soot and sludge built up when cleaning the EGR- and wondered how much of this is going into the Intake manifold and then the chamber. His suspicion tells him that this is not GOOD!!


Had he opened up the Intake manifold- he might have fainted from Shock!
A slight correction Originator did not actually noticed anything he "felt" about it.
If you open intake manifold of any vehicle even with out EGR it is bound to be dirty , As long as this dirt grime is with in prescribed limit it is fine.
It need not be clinically clean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

Now the simple point is: When the Manufacturer takes his brand new engine to be tested and certified for the Emissions Target- does anyone (in their right mind) assume that the manufacturer puts that much soot and sludge into the inlet manifold- and rest of the engine. Especially since Legislation does not require him to???------- Personally, I think not!!
No only brand new engines are not tested. As a customer with 4 year warrenty every customer tests them as per law every 6 months ( atleast in Bangalore , Traffic police checks the emission certificate, I have heard in Chennai it is different ) and if he notice emissions going beyond the prescribed range he will raise a warrenty issue with the manufacturer.

As I stated I have not noticed emissions going up in last 2.5 years of ownership of vehicle with EGR nor have others whome I asked / know.

So I kind of belive that the BS3 vehicle remains BS3 if serviced at prescribed intervals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

Here is another little question: Does a dirty air filter- have an effect on the efficiency – and thus Emissions?


Well I’ve seen an air filter that had not been changed/cleaned in 120k kms. And I have seen a Intake manifold with EGR at 15K—the Intake Manifold was a hell of a lot dirtier! (In fact is there any point in having an air filter!!)
Sure it does and that is why service stations and service intervals exist.
A car is a serviceable commodity and not a sealed none serviceable commodity like a microprocessor.

How can you compare something which is not maintained as per maintenance guideline with normal case ?

If filter is not changed emission checks are bound to fail ( mandatory in 6 months) and Car needs to be serviced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
SO REAL MORAL ISSUE:

What is worse--- Reducing NOx /emissions at the point of NEW ENGINE CERTIFICATION- so that the manufacturer can have a Pat on his back- OR -Avoiding the increase in emissions as a result of the EGR contaminating the Intake when the Engine is the consumers (and not the manufacturers anymore) responsibility!!!!
Real moral issue is to buy something which meets emission targets at the point of purchase and service it at regular intervals so it continue to meet the guidelines through it's serviceable life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

As to benefits:
Well everyone who has done it swears there is an increase in efficiency (just check the net) i.e better FE. But theoretically higher combustion temperatures actually mean better efficiency!!!!!
Not quite , Higher combustion temperature with in specified tolerance limit.
Engine is not a blast furnace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
—Personally: When new (and properly run in- another different issue) My DDiS gave me around 18. By around 10k it was around 16 and stayed there. After disabling the EGR and also cleaning the Intake Manifold my FE is back to around 18 and stays there!
How scientific and controlled was this test , I get variety of milages depending on traffic conditions ( no two days are same even on same route), climate and pumps from where I fill.
Until you have absolute control over these conditions you can never be sure on the results.

After 2.5 years of ownership , My fuel efficiency on highways stand where it was in 2nd month that is 14 Kmpl if I drive around 90 kmph , 12.6 if I drive between 120 -140 kmph.

And in city it is around 10 kmpl and 9.8 if it is heavy bumper to bumper stretch.

Last edited by amitk26 : 8th December 2010 at 09:49.
amitk26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EGR system - What's it purpose & when does the EGR valve open/close? rranjith_kum Technical Stuff 60 14th August 2017 20:15
DIY: EGR Valve Cleaning (1.3L DDiS / MJD) a4anurag DIY - Do it yourself 18 6th July 2017 12:34
economy diesel duel: Maruti Ritz DDiS vs Suzuki Swift DDis vs Vista quadrajet aura. s_pphilip Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 25 29th October 2009 09:43
Swift DDiS vs Ritz DDiS vs iKool ? anoovis Hatchbacks 1 21st October 2009 13:09


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 23:27.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks