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Old 8th December 2010, 10:20   #31
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

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Originally Posted by DIY Guru View Post
Disabling the EGR helps by increasing the power, efficiency and life of the engine.
Power, perhaps a little. Efficiency and life of engine? It will be really useful to have the source for this info!

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Originally Posted by DIY Guru View Post
The EGR is closed under low load/RPM conditions. In high load/RPM the EGR opens up, directly letting the exhaust gases from the engine (not from exhaust pipe) into the intake manifold.
The EGR is opened under constant load and should not be opened under high load is my understanding. I could be wrong though.

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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Well, isn’t this thread becoming fun, sure were all learning new things—


So for my penny’s worth: (Though I refrain from going into long technical details- this is all available on the net, surprisingly- more written about the con’s than the pro’s)


Moral Issue:


Reduction of NOx----- Can’t argue against that.


But some basics:
EGR’s have a greater effect on Petrol engines than on Diesels. (Look it up on the net)
1) For Diesels the problem is that, since EGR’s work effectively by slightly cooling Combustion Temperature and thus reducing NOx- they have the opposite effect on PM’s (Particulate Matter) these need the higher temperatures to effectively burn off. Which is why the specific new engine oils were developed- not to get rid off the PM’s i.e. clean them up- But to slow down the degradation of the Lubricating oil due to greater PM contamination.


SO how much more NOx has been produced from the production of the newer oils—and how much more is being produced from making the damn things (EGR’s) themselves??
This is something that cannot be answered. But to be fair, the same yardstick has to be applied to all innovations, not EGR alone. For e.g. electric cars and how much of energy goes into mining the rare earth metals required for the advanced batteries, investment into electricity generation and setting up recharging stations and so on. This is not to say that electric vehicles are not clean/green, but there is an overhead involved in them too. The debate if started wll never end as there are pros and cons on all sides IMHO.

This thread is nudging towards saying that EGR's are bad! This is something that needs to be understood completely. DIY Guru mentioned that lot of soot was noticed in the EGR tubing. Since EGR is in the path of exhaust gas, it will accumlate soot in the exhaust side and some of it will be transferred to intake side, but how much? The electronically controlled EGR valves are open only during specific conditions/engine operating ranges. So if someone were to stomp on the pedal (change in engine load also means -> black smoke from the exhaust), the EGR valve will shut off, there by not recirculating at all. But the EGR tubing will accumulate soot.

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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
2) Engine manufacturers are required to meet certain targets by legislation—this only applies to the BRAND NEW ENGINE—Under STANDARD and specific testing conditions. I am sure we can all surmise that an Engine starts to wear the moment it is firs’t started!!- and also that engines will function in varying ways depending on a variety of factors- Climate, Air condition in a locality, drivng styles/habits, maintainance habits etc..


So that it cannot in the real world consistently be within the exact target as prescribed by the legislation.




This thread started because the originator noticed the amount of soot and sludge built up when cleaning the EGR- and wondered how much of this is going into the Intake manifold and then the chamber. His suspicion tells him that this is not GOOD!!


Had he opened up the Intake manifold- he might have fainted from Shock!


Now the simple point is: When the Manufacturer takes his brand new engine to be tested and certified for the Emissions Target- does anyone (in their right mind) assume that the manufacturer puts that much soot and sludge into the inlet manifold- and rest of the engine. Especially since Legislation does not require him to???------- Personally, I think not!!

Here is another little question: Does a dirty air filter- have an effect on the efficiency – and thus Emissions?


Well I’ve seen an air filter that had not been changed/cleaned in 120k kms. And I have seen a Intake manifold with EGR at 15K—the Intake Manifold was a hell of a lot dirtier! (In fact is there any point in having an air filter!!)




SO REAL MORAL ISSUE:

What is worse--- Reducing NOx /emissions at the point of NEW ENGINE CERTIFICATION- so that the manufacturer can have a Pat on his back- OR -Avoiding the increase in emissions as a result of the EGR contaminating the Intake when the Engine is the consumers (and not the manufacturers anymore) responsibility!!!!
Again the above point is highly debatable. Some of the manufacturer's do pass on the buck, Yes, but should they be generalized? A bad EGR valve implementation will affect drivability -> reliablility -> sales. Hopefully these things are not taken very lightly by the top engine manufacturers in the world.

As far a I am concerned, disabling an EGR or keeping it active is an owner's choice as long as they understand it and take responsibility for it, as with any other part in the vehicle.
But EGR, as a technology, is not implemented as an afterthought in the mordern engine. A normally performing EGR system will not affect drivability/life of engine. My 2 cents.
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Old 8th December 2010, 10:41   #32
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Post Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

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Power, perhaps a little. Efficiency and life of engine? It will be really useful to have the source for this info!
I do not remember where I got this info. But carbon particles increase friction and reduce the effect of engine oil thus reducing efficieny and engine life. Will try conducting a controlled test to confirm the same in the future.

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Originally Posted by kaushikr View Post
The EGR is opened under constant load and should not be opened under high load is my understanding. I could be wrong though.
My bad (wasn't concentrating while typing), it is in high RPM that the EGR opens up regardless of the load. Would be conducting a test to confirm the same very soon.
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Old 8th December 2010, 12:04   #33
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Just a clarification 30% improvement in efficiency was for water injection, NOT for EGR removal.
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Old 8th December 2010, 14:57   #34
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

I think if there is no factual evidence that removing EGR could result in better FE or even more power, then why should anyone indulge in it?
I understand that some have tried this and claim an increase in efficiency, but a 16 to 18 increase cannot be attributed to EGR removal alone. I own a dzire DDIS and my FE oscialltes between 16-18 depending on the drving conditions. And if one talks about an increase in power, well, how much is it? Im sure its negligible. Is anyone's 0-100 figures getting better? If so, by how much?
And lastly, about the fact that EGR could have an impact on the engine's life--I'm sure that a lot of DDIS engines have gone beyond 1.5 or even 2 lakh kms without any major issues.

Im of a simple opinion that in case one decide's to remove the EGR, it should be done based on substantial findings and the benefits should be far better than say an increase of 1-2kmpl in efficiency or a decrease of 2secs in 0-100.
And with regard to the environment getting affected due to the removal of EGR, I think if we live in a country that has certain rules, then lets try to follow it as much as we can. The EGR controls emissions and its removal does not guarantee any improvements to anyone's car. So why do it in the first place?
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Old 8th December 2010, 15:23   #35
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Question Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

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Actually I’ve converted mine to inject a bit of water instead of Exhaust Gas—but am still refining the process..
Is the water injected into the intake manifold? How do you control the amount of water that is being injected? Usually it is controlled by the ECU on some cars. Too much water and you could spoil the engine.
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Old 8th December 2010, 22:59   #36
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Post Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Started work on the EGR. Here are the pics.





1. First removed chord connected to the air flow sensor.




Press down where indicated to remove the chord.




2. Next we remove the tubing connected to the air flow sensor.




Loosen the screw a little bit.




Pull the tubing off the sensor. It will take some effort.




It is advisable to cover the tubing with a piece of cloth to prevent any dust/insects from going in.




3. Next we remove the screws holding the air filter.






This seems like a good place to keep the screws




4. Next we remove the air filter from the engine bay.




The engine bay with the air filter removed.




Pic of the EGR actuator. Next you will need to remove the screws holding the actuator with a torx screwdriver (probably size T16 or T17 )




Tried using size T15 but was a little small.




Will have to purchase T16 or T17 torx head first for more progress.




Will keep you guys posted on the progress.

Cheers
Attached Images
               

Last edited by DIY Guru : 8th December 2010 at 23:12. Reason: Correction of minor mistakes in post
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Old 9th December 2010, 00:33   #37
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Had intended to post a long one on all the points raised-- but havn't had much time. And then I see someone with a bit of courage kinda saying: "oh to hell with this endless and divergent debate, and am just going to get on with it" and decides to post some pics of the process.

Well ok: a few points and apologies:

1. I put a basic cursory reference to my "Water Injection" project. I should have perhaps been more descriptive- however I will be on perhaps a more dedicated thread. But effectively I should refer to what I'm doing as "Superheated Steam injection"-- I'm attempting to convert the exhaust heat energy into a more efficient "Primary Charge"- using H (hydrogen) and 2O (two parts Oxygen) as the inert medium.

--This is not to bring the "Combustion Temperature" down- but to have a more "denser" charge.

following a little quote about "Water Injection":

Water Methanol History - Water Injection was first successfully implemented in WWII on the
P-47 “Thunderbolt”. The Turbo Charged Pratt & Whitney R-2800 engine normally produced
2000 HP, with water injection the engine could produce up to 3800 HP. With water injection, the
P-47 had 20 minutes worth of high power output for combat situations. One initial problem was
that at high altitudes the water would freeze. So to prevent freezing, methanol was finally added
to the injection mixture. Later studies done by the Army Corp of Engineers actually determined
that with a 50/50 mix of water-methanol even more power could be produced over water
injection alone.
....... Breda K., Pehan S., “Reduction of Diesel Engine Emissions by Water Injection”
SAE 2001-01-3259

30% ( actually just under- 28.7%) was the aggregate over a number of static runs on a DYNO. - which I have installed in my workshop- the Engine was run on a stand not in the car. If anyone wishes to take a trip down to Pondy, please get in touch I'll show you the facilities.


I shall post more info and pictures over time--- but please understand the issue is not about achieving the Efficiency increase, but being able to do it reliably and consistently. So far the heat exchangers I've built don't last more than a few minutes--- The next one I believe will last much longer!!

Back to the gentleman who is going ahead with disabling the EGR>

-- Sorry mate but you are going about it the long way!-- unless you intend to make a Blanking plate.

In which case- let me know and I'll write you a full proceedure, which also includes the easiest and best way to get to the EGR (It involves taking the wipers and mechanism off!!)

If you wan't a quick and easy initial exploratory solution-- suggest you just unplug the connector to the actuator valve. If you do get a second cycle engine shutdown---- let me know, there is a easy way to clear the error codes and shutdown commands, without the Maruti Scanner ( actually doesn't need any special equipment at all)

Rgds.
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Old 9th December 2010, 01:53   #38
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Smile Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Had intended to post a long one on all the points raised-- but havn't had much time. And then I see someone with a bit of courage kinda saying: "oh to hell with this endless and divergent debate, and am just going to get on with it" and decides to post some pics of the process.
Hi Kulvinder,
I have not actually started any modifications yet. I intend to remove the EGR off the system (but still connected to the ECU) and run the engine. Then I will note down at what RPM and Loads (still thinking how I'll do this)
the EGR actuator is activated. The EGR modification is still at the research stage.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
1. I put a basic cursory reference to my "Water Injection" project. I should have perhaps been more descriptive- however I will be on perhaps a more dedicated thread. But effectively I should refer to what I'm doing as "Superheated Steam injection"-- I'm attempting to convert the exhaust heat energy into a more efficient "Primary Charge"- using H (hydrogen) and 2O (two parts Oxygen) as the inert medium.

--This is not to bring the "Combustion Temperature" down- but to have a more "denser" charge.
Ok, I understand. I thought you were trying to inject water into the intake manifold to prevent detonation. The EGR gases (in some cases) also prevents detonation by lowering the combustion temperature and I thought you were using water injection to compensate for absent EGR gases (after disabling/removing the EGR system). This is one of the concerns I have when disabling the EGR. Any views on this detonation issue?




Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
30% ( actually just under- 28.7%) was the aggregate over a number of static runs on a DYNO. - which I have installed in my workshop- the Engine was run on a stand not in the car. If anyone wishes to take a trip down to Pondy, please get in touch I'll show you the facilities.

I shall post more info and pictures over time--- but please understand the issue is not about achieving the Efficiency increase, but being able to do it reliably and consistently. So far the heat exchangers I've built don't last more than a few minutes--- The next one I believe will last much longer!!
Very happy to see such a dedicated and innovative modder. Will eagerly wait for your posts.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Sorry mate but you are going about it the long way!-- unless you intend to make a Blanking plate.

In which case- let me know and I'll write you a full proceedure, which also includes the easiest and best way to get to the EGR (It involves taking the wipers and mechanism off!!)

If you wan't a quick and easy initial exploratory solution-- suggest you just unplug the connector to the actuator valve. If you do get a second cycle engine shutdown---- let me know, there is a easy way to clear the error codes and shutdown commands, without the Maruti Scanner ( actually doesn't need any special equipment at all)

Rgds.
I will be very pleased to get info on both the fabrication of Blanking plates and Clearing of error codes.

Huge thanks in advance.

Regards,
Calvin
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Old 9th December 2010, 02:50   #39
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

My points on Diesel EGR.

The fuelling is calibrated for fresh air and a particular amount of EGR,So If if EGR is disabled- the fuelling still remains the same. So i would not expect an increase in power.

Regarding life, every engine is tsted extensievely for life. And there are limits on emission deterioration. The roadside emission measurements don't measure Nox.

REgarding water inection.

Water injection produces power oly if the water is injected into the cylinder after combustiion, using a separate injector. Timing and amount is critical here. If you inject water into the manifold, you are not going to get any increase in power- Just a lot of rust in the manifold/cylinder head. Water also supresses combustion.
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Old 9th December 2010, 07:49   #40
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

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My points on Diesel EGR.

The fuelling is calibrated for fresh air and a particular amount of EGR,So If if EGR is disabled- the fuelling still remains the same. So i would not expect an increase in power.
Jomz, what if a tuning box is added into the system after disabling the EGR? It provides more fuel and tuning boxes generally produce lot of smoke under hard acceleration. So in a EGR disabled car does this reduce the smoke and since fuel has clean air to burn and EGR.
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Old 9th December 2010, 10:23   #41
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Question Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

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My points on Diesel EGR.

The fuelling is calibrated for fresh air and a particular amount of EGR,So If if EGR is disabled- the fuelling still remains the same. So i would not expect an increase in power.
Hi Jomz,
What about efficiency? The engine does get cleaner fresh air to breathe (or rather the polluted air to the engine is eliminated), wouldn't this increase efficiency? If not, how about connecting the EGR system intake (normally from the exhaust manifold) to the air filter (or some similar setup) so whatever air comes in is fresh even though the ECU thinks it has opened the EGR for exhaust gases. Which leads to better combustion.

Besides this what are your views on detonation without the EGR on swift DDIS?
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Old 9th December 2010, 12:36   #42
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
If you wan't a quick and easy initial exploratory solution-- suggest you just unplug the connector to the actuator valve. If you do get a second cycle engine shutdown---- let me know, there is a easy way to clear the error codes and shutdown commands, without the Maruti Scanner ( actually doesn't need any special equipment at all)

Rgds.
Interesting. Could you please share the method to clear the fault codes without using the scanner? If the second cycle shutdown happens, then it will not be very convenient as the codes have to be cleared every other time to start the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Jomz, what if a tuning box is added into the system after disabling the EGR? It provides more fuel and tuning boxes generally produce lot of smoke under hard acceleration. So in a EGR disabled car does this reduce the smoke and since fuel has clean air to burn and EGR.
AFAIK, this should not make a difference as the smoke will be there until the turbo spools up to compensate for the extra fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIY Guru View Post
Hi Jomz,
What about efficiency? The engine does get cleaner fresh air to breathe (or rather the polluted air to the engine is eliminated), wouldn't this increase efficiency? If not, how about connecting the EGR system intake (normally from the exhaust manifold) to the air filter (or some similar setup) so whatever air comes in is fresh even though the ECU thinks it has opened the EGR for exhaust gases. Which leads to better combustion.

Besides this what are your views on detonation without the EGR on swift DDIS?
Connecting the EGR to intake instead of exhaust will reduce the flow from the intake to the engine as there is an alternate path for the intake air to flow.
Also, the calibration of EGR opening and other things are a going to be very difficult. So it is best avoided.

DIY Guru, thats some detailed and nice pics there. Thanks for that.
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Old 9th December 2010, 13:32   #43
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

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Originally Posted by DIY Guru View Post
Hi Jomz,
What about efficiency? The engine does get cleaner fresh air to breathe (or rather the polluted air to the engine is eliminated), wouldn't this increase efficiency? If not, how about connecting the EGR system intake (normally from the exhaust manifold) to the air filter (or some similar setup) so whatever air comes in is fresh even though the ECU thinks it has opened the EGR for exhaust gases. Which leads to better combustion.
You can't connect the EGR to the airbox 1) EGR is hot it will burn the filter. 2) And even if it doesn't burn the filter it will clog the filter.

But if you connect the EGR after the air filter there are sensors which will get clogged/burnt from the exhaust gases.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaushikr View Post
AFAIK, this should not make a difference as the smoke will be there until the turbo spools up to compensate for the extra fuel.
But without EGR there should be more clean air in the combustion chamber? My thinking is that this clean air should allow for a cleaner combustion producing less smoke, before and after the spool up, especially when the tuning box is allowing for more fuel into the combustion chamber.
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Old 9th December 2010, 16:23   #44
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

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Hi Kulvinder,
I have not actually started any modifications yet. I intend to remove the EGR off the system (but still connected to the ECU) and run the engine. Then I will note down at what RPM and Loads (still thinking how I'll do this)
the EGR actuator is activated. The EGR modification is still at the research stage.
DearCalvin,

You won't be able to do this because- this is a water/coolent cooled EGR. The engine coolent circuit runs through this. You can put some piping in to re-route the coolent (but not much point- given that you are only experimenting.)

Secondly, as mentioned earlier, there is a square hole where the EGR is mounted on the engine- this is the Exhaust chamber. So unless you block this- you will have all the Exhaust pouring into the engine bay as opposed to the exhaust pipe.

When I mentioned earlier- "blanking plate" this is what I mean't, I.e. something to block the Exhaust escaping. Blocking/Blanking plate is simply a piece of 3 to 4 mm thick piece of sheet metal about 2 inches by 2 inches- with two holes drilled through which you bolt the plate onto the -already existing- bolt holes on the exhaust chamber. ( you can cut it to shape using nothing more than a hand hacksaw)

If you are doing this only temporarily, i.e for experimenting then you can use ordinary steel-- but it won't last very long, which is why Stainless Steel- or even cast iron is a better long term solution.

If you put the EGR back- i.e you put the plate between the Exhaust chamber (engine side) and EGR (exhaust Inlet side) --- you don't need any adaptations as you can use the same bolts and bolt holes that already exist.-(On the engine and EGR)

Effectively what you are thus doing is- blocking the exhaust gas from entering the EGR. This way you don't need to do anything to the Coolent System- as it will keep running as before. ( in fact better- because the engine will run about 10 % cooler-- possibly more)

Also- the ECU on the DDis only checks if the EGR Actuator is opening and closing-- there are no sensors to check/measure correlate anything else. So the Actuator will keep on working and the ECU won't register any errors. ( i.e you will be fooling the EGR into believing that exhaust is going into the intake as opposed what is now only clean air!!)



Quote:

Ok, I understand. I thought you were trying to inject water into the intake manifold to prevent detonation. The EGR gases (in some cases) also prevents detonation by lowering the combustion temperature and I thought you were using water injection to compensate for absent EGR gases (after disabling/removing the EGR system). This is one of the concerns I have when disabling the EGR. Any views on this detonation issue?
No you did think correctly, I am injecting water into the intake. but if I wanted to prevent detonation- I wouldn't need to do this. i.e leave evrything as it is.
This is a bit more complex an issue- and will give you a better explanation later- because actually it isn't such a major issue with what you are trying to do, especially with this particular engine.

But essentially the principle is that by lowering Combustion Temperatures- we can in-fact run the engine a little leaner.

( now I know this is going to incense the gentleman who earlier stated something like... "Not quite , Higher combustion temperature with in specified tolerance limit.
Engine is not a blast furnace. "

..... well 2000 deg C to me actually is more like nuclear meltdown!!-- Combustion Temperature is a very different thing from Cylinder Temperature)

Often Detonation/Knock is confused between Petrol and Diesel engines- though in basic principle the same-- actually occur in a different way.

In a Diesel- it is almost impossible to eliminate!!--- the Clattering noise you sometimes hear on the DDis and always heard on older generation engines-- well actually thats not entirely the valves, some of it is (because of the waves created) but mostly its: Knock/detonation.

On the DDis-- detonation is controlled/lessened by a number of differnt measures:
Fuel pressure (the ECU varies this)
Fuel Quantity (the ECU varies this)
Fuel Pulse ( the ECU varies this)
Fuel temperature (ECU doesn't vary this but adjusts the others)
Air inlet pressure/volume (the ECU varies this)
Air Ambient temperature ( ECU adjusts the others )

So the long and short is that- the ECU should adjust these parameters in the event of a loss of EGR.

Yes, part of what i'm doing is I am compensating the loss of EGR with water. But the more relevant part is that what I'm doing is causing the water to MIMIC some of the properties of the Exhaust Gas, so that I don't have to change any of the engines other parameters- Fuel/ Air ratio-- operating Temperature- and TIMING.

This the main reason that many of the "Kits" people try out don't work so well. Just dumping water into the intake won't have a great effect- unless the other parameters are tuned for this.

So my challenge is to keep the engine parameters standard- but change the physical structure of the water. The crucial point here is to get the water to the same precise temperature as the exhaust gas (when it enters the inlet- not when it enters the EGR) but give me a far better Charge Density than the Turbo can ever hope to achieve.


Hope this answers some some of your concerns.

Last edited by Jaggu : 9th December 2010 at 16:41.
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Old 9th December 2010, 18:59   #45
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Jomz, what if a tuning box is added into the system after disabling the EGR? It provides more fuel and tuning boxes generally produce lot of smoke under hard acceleration. So in a EGR disabled car does this reduce the smoke and since fuel has clean air to burn and EGR.
A tuning box and No EGR will definitely increase power. The the box has to be tuned for a EGR delete kit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIY Guru View Post
Hi Jomz,
What about efficiency? The engine does get cleaner fresh air to breathe (or rather the polluted air to the engine is eliminated), wouldn't this increase efficiency? If not, how about connecting the EGR system intake (normally from the exhaust manifold) to the air filter (or some similar setup) so whatever air comes in is fresh even though the ECU thinks it has opened the EGR for exhaust gases. Which leads to better combustion.

Besides this what are your views on detonation without the EGR on swift DDIS?
Efficiency will be same, Cleaner air does not increase efficiency. You get higher Oxygen concentation than without EGR, But as long as fuel remains the same, the same amount of fuel will be burnt, and same amount of power produced.

Oil contamination is totally another issue affecting life. But it is tested.

Detonation is not an issue in Diesel engines. There are no knock sensors or anythything- atleast in Heavy duty engines, which I work on.
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