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Old 12th December 2010, 19:10   #46
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling

Hadn't, checked the thread- and seems to have gone slow,

Anyways for what its worth: Disconnecting elec connector egr- won't cause a second cycle shutdown.

Also having gone through some of the recent posts- find some stuff a little lacking in basic schoolboy physics knowledge-- so apologies don't mean to offend but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
My points on Diesel EGR.

The fuelling is calibrated for fresh air and a particular amount of EGR,So If if EGR is disabled- the fuelling still remains the same. So i would not expect an increase in power.
AND:
"Efficiency will be same, Cleaner air does not increase efficiency. You get higher Oxygen concentation than without EGR, But as long as fuel remains the same, the same amount of fuel will be burnt, and same amount of power produced."

I was taught that nothing burns without Oxygen-- so doesn't it follow that more oxygen means more of the fuel will burn- i.e less will be unburnt!!-- and therefore doesn't it follow that more energy will be released from the same amount of fuel!!!!---- (Duh.... otherwise whats the point of the Turbocharger--- has Maruti made us pay for a device that has no purpose!!)

REgarding water inection.

Water injection produces power oly if the water is injected into the cylinder after combustiion, using a separate injector. Timing and amount is critical here. If you inject water into the manifold, you are not going to get any increase in power- Just a lot of rust in the manifold/cylinder head. Water also supresses combustion.
Right---- " after Combustion"-- So if I switch off my engine and then dump some water in the the cylinder, my engine will keep on working- will it!! wow an engine that runs on water and doesn't need combustion!!!

" Just a lot of rust....." Right next time I see one of those STEAM TRAINS- I'll ask them how the've managed to keep the cylinder head from rusting- in a 100 years of running.

"Water also suppresses combustion..." Right-- so all those public info videos they show to house wifes explaining why they should never throw water on a pan of burning cooking oil- uh!! are wrong-- wow.

Rgds,
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Old 13th December 2010, 19:32   #47
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Default Re: Swift DDIS - EGR disabling. EDIT W-I-P PICS on Pg 3

Wondeful Kulvinder singji, Please read on basic engine operation before You try all your hypotezised Mods.
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Old 14th December 2010, 09:55   #48
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Just one small rejoinder Kulvinder ji when I wrote 2000 degree which is still mentioned in your posts I clearly wrote Ferienheit and not celcius so it is actually not a nuclear meltdown any way some of the technical questions I posted are deleted by overzealous mods along with so called eco posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
Wondeful Kulvinder singji, Please read on basic engine operation before You try all your hypotezised Mods.
Since this is coming from someone related to engine R&D in vehicle industry I can not add more to it
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Old 14th December 2010, 10:22   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
REgarding water inection.

Water injection produces power oly if the water is injected into the cylinder after combustiion, using a separate injector. Timing and amount is critical here. If you inject water into the manifold, you are not going to get any increase in power- Just a lot of rust in the manifold/cylinder head. Water also supresses combustion.
Water injection in petrol engines is done before the power stroke, its done to reduce cylinder temperature, eliminating pinging and allowing for higher compression ratio.

I don't know about water injection in Diesel engine. Is it done after the power stroke in it, Ie., in the exhaust stroke? If so why?
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Old 14th December 2010, 18:57   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Water injection in petrol engines is done before the power stroke, its done to reduce cylinder temperature, eliminating pinging and allowing for higher compression ratio.

I don't know about water injection in Diesel engine. Is it done after the power stroke in it, Ie., in the exhaust stroke? If so why?
Sankar, i was talking abot 6 stroke engine.
Crower six stroke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I did a bit of digging on water injection for gasolines, Seems that I was wrong. It is done after the ignition/spark (when the fuel catches fire) and before the flame front has progressed.( the the flame reaches all of the cylinders). This is done as sankar siad to reduce in cylinder temperatures, and - to reduce NOx. I think (am not sure) the reduction in pressure is compensated by the extra pressure of water turning to steam. Water injection helps to reduce detonation in gasoline engines.

A water fuel mix is not used because that mixture is hard to burn, that is why water is injected after fuel catches fire.


If the requirement is to increase power by conversion of water into steam it is usually injected in late in power stroke.

Last edited by Jomz : 14th December 2010 at 19:01.
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Old 17th December 2010, 00:50   #51
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Came back to this thread- expecting to see more of the experimentation and exploration of DIY Guru's etc.. but instead find even more basic idiocy.

Am trying to resist- getting into a long and protracted lesson on "Basic Science"- however, quickly ( so that the thread can get back to its original purpose-- which is about how to go about deleting the EGR)

Mr... amitk26: You did not write " 2000 degrees".. either farenheit, centigrade or celsius. I did!! because I could see from your actual statement, that you did not have a single clue about average "Combustion Temperatures" nor indeed the difference between combustion temperatures and cylinder temperatures.

Mr.... jomz: Even the Crower- Six stroke engine does not inject water into the EXHAUST. The Crower engine ( if you properly read the wikepedia article that you are trying to draw from) clearly states that the Crower engine creates a further "Power Stroke" in which the water is injected.

Water injection has been done for more than 70 years now--- some manufacturers have also tried at times to introduce it. I still have a 1990 SAAB 900 turbo which I bought new and had the "Water injection" option fitted.

It is not done after the Ignition/spark. This -- (And I can only presume that you are claiming it so, because the limited amount of reading you have done about it is on wikepedia-- and even that- like the reading on the six stroke engine- you haven't actually fully understood)-- is because it would be really, really, ridiculous for us to wan't to take ENERGY that is already being released for mechanical use, transfer it into another medium and then bring it back for it's primary purpose---- why???-- oh and how much "radiative loss" of that energy would there be-- quite a lot don't you think!!

"A water fuel mix is not used because that mixture is hard to burn, that is why water is injected after fuel catches fire."

So pray tell me how come my Swift keeps on running in the dead of summer- here in Pondicherry when the ambient humidity reaches 98%-- thats a hell of a lot of water getting mixed with the air going into my air inlet and getting mixed with the fuel!! isn't it??

And-- just for your information- the requirement is not to increase power by conversion of water into steam-- because we are not trying to re-invent the steam engine.-- neither, indeed, a combined cycle steam and IC engine.

It is actually very simple- all we are doing is introducing water in a very fine (mist)form into the air- that is going into the inlet. The Purpose of this is to make the air: cooler and denser ( thicker) thus the fuel when it combusts has a greater amount of Oxygen to react with - burning better and releasing more energy.
This effectively also increases the compression ratio.

The Byproduct of this is that as the water vapourises (during combustion) it absorbs some of the excess heat- leading to a lowering of in-cylinder temperatures.

Rgds,
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Old 17th December 2010, 02:19   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Mr.... jomz: Even the Crower- Six stroke engine does not inject water into the EXHAUST. The Crower engine ( if you properly read the wikepedia article that you are trying to draw from) clearly states that the Crower engine creates a further "Power Stroke" in which the water is injected.

Water injection has been done for more than 70 years now--- some manufacturers have also tried at times to introduce it. I still have a 1990 SAAB 900 turbo which I bought new and had the "Water injection" option fitted.

It is not done after the Ignition/spark. This -- (And I can only presume that you are claiming it so, because the limited amount of reading you have done about it is on wikepedia-- and even that- like the reading on the six stroke engine- you haven't actually fully understood)-- is because it would be really, really, ridiculous for us to wan't to take ENERGY that is already being released for mechanical use, transfer it into another medium and then bring it back for it's primary purpose---- why???-- oh and how much "radiative loss" of that energy would there be-- quite a lot don't you think!!
,
My basis on water injection is the work done in my college, by a sponsored autootive company, on evaluating water injection in their engines. My advisor was doing that job. it involved a dedicated injector into the cylinder with precise timings and that had improvements- a friend as doing this job.

there are better ways to cool the charge, than injecting water into manifold (which is 1944 technology), for example water spray in intercoolers like subaru wrx STI.

Would like to see pics of your 1990 Saab with water injection into manifold. That screwes up the ion sense techology in that engine.

Please understand that water vapour is different from water mist - like your pondicherry example.

"This -- (And I can only presume that you are claiming it so, because the limited amount of reading you have done about it is on wikepedia-- and even that- like the reading on the six stroke engine- you haven't actually fully understood)-- is because it would be really, really, ridiculous for us to wan't to take ENERGY that is already being released for mechanical use, transfer it into another medium and then bring it back for it's primary purpose---- why???-- oh and how much "radiative loss" of that energy would there be-- quite a lot don't you think!!"

This makes no sense- You know about the 2nd law of thermodynamics , there will always be wastage of energy when heat is converted to work. water injection tries to recover that wasted energy. I haven't haerd of radiative loss.

Last edited by Jomz : 17th December 2010 at 02:38.
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Old 17th December 2010, 09:40   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

Mr... amitk26: You did not write " 2000 degrees".. either farenheit, centigrade or celsius. I did!! because I could see from your actual statement, that you did not have a single clue about average "Combustion Temperatures" nor indeed the difference between combustion temperatures and cylinder temperatures.
Rgds,
Since the post in question is deleted by mods because of someone's crib I have no means to prove but it was Fahrenheit by all means and I am 100% sure on it and the figure I provided was below 2400 Fahrenheit for combustion temperature.

My main point was that EGR is useful for keeping the Combustion temperature below 2400 Fahrenheit ( Not Cylinder temp as you suggested in your post) .

You are trying to do the same using water injection but somehow feel that achiving same result by EGR is sinful.

But if you spray water in air intake then it is not injection it is just a water spray to cool the Air Intake temp and just a CAI

EGR is easier to achieve then actual water injection because you need to place separate injectors in cylinders and no need to calibrate the injection point with stroke.
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Old 17th December 2010, 10:53   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
Would like to see pics of your 1990 Saab with water injection into manifold. That screwes up the ion sense techology in that engine.
Saab did have a water injected model in its line-up. Would love to see the pic if Kulvinder Singh has it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
there are better ways to cool the charge, than injecting water into manifold (which is 1944 technology), for example water spray in intercoolers like subaru wrx STI.
Water spraying on to the intercooler is said less efficient that water injection, it does lower the charge temperature, but it doesn't have the effect of increasing octane rating of gasoline.

But wiki does state that the introduction of intercoolers saw a decline of water injection in production cars. Wiki also says that today water injection is of interest because it can potentially decrease nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions in exhaust.

I guess cost and complexity is the reason why its not being widely implemented today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
You are trying to do the same using water injection but somehow feel that achiving same result by EGR is sinful.
Is it the same? Really?

Quote:
But if you spray water in air intake then it is not injection it is just a water spray to cool the Air Intake temp and just a CAI
Really, just a CAI?
So if we spray fuel into the intake runner its just 'fuel spray system' and not 'fuel injection system'?



Water Injection - Alcohol and Methanol - Stop Knock - How It Works and FAQs

RSR Water Injection Calculator

Water Injection - A technical description
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Old 20th December 2010, 02:42   #55
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Sankar:

Indeed I still have the car-- actually I have two. A two door coupe with water injection and a four door automatic- without water injection.-- I was hoping to bring the coupe to India but the rules no longer allow me. The four door, my father has been using for the past 20 years- he has a particular spot for SAABs, used to rally them in Kenya in the 60's. And as he keeps telling me : the 900 was the last "PUKKA SAAB", after that they were just re badged GM's etc.. - Anyways next time in London I'll take some pictures.

amitk26: i quote: "
EGR is easier to achieve then actual water injection because you need to place separate injectors in cylinders and no need to calibrate the injection point with stroke."

Exactly why sir???, Particularly since the only person in the entire world who claims this to be the case (i.e that seperate injectors are required) is a one Mr. Jomz ( and who also now admits is actually not personally involved in any R&D)

Mr. Jomz: 1944 technology-- well has it escaped you that the entire internal combustion engine is actually 1880 technology!

2nd. law of thermodynamics.. Surely you mean the firs't law.. however, let us give you the sense of doubt and apply the second law ( which as we all know examines the concept of entropy and thus suggests that effectively energy cannot be self- perpetuating).

But -- we already have a thing called a "TURBOCHARGER" which actually ( and I'm presuming you know the purpose of a turbocharger) recovers the waste energy and converts it into useful work.

Now tell me something: why would we wish to take energy that is already doing some usefull work-- i.e. pushing a piston down, divert it to produce steam- to presumably- push the piston down , when it was already doing it (i.e pushing the piston down) in the firs't place???????-- oh and take some of the "Waste" Energy away from the "TURBOCHARGER"??????

The question remains-- Why should I or anyone else wan't to convert our engines into a combined cycle " Steam Engine" ????? And one that decreases its efficiency!!

In short if my objective is to "INCREASE EFFICIENCY"-- why would I purposely go out of my way to "DECREASE EFFICIENCY"

Surely ( if you actually have any knowledge of engineering)- you would understand that it would be easier, cheaper and lead to greater gains in efficiency- if we skip the combustion cycle and just turn the whole engine into a steam engine!!!

And, even better, we just replace the re-ciprocating piston engine with a low pressure turbine driven by steam????--- we wouldn't even need a gearbox then-- would we????

"Would like to see pics of your 1990 Saab with water injection into manifold. That screwes up the ion sense techology in that engine."

Right , screws up the ion sense technology!!!-- exactly how?? ( though I'm not too worried since SAAB only introduced "Ion Sense" in 1995-- and my car is 1990)

Nevertheless perhaps you can tell me exactly how a KNOCK SENSING ( I take it you actually understand what this "ion sensing technology" is!!) technology can be 'Screwed up' by water--- because what really worries me is all those
Rotax engines that they use in Piston Engined AIRCRAFT- these have the "Ion Sensing" Spark plugs--- now just imagine when these poor guys have to fly through low clouds ( Read: lots of Water Mist) what happens- screwed up engine- it fails??? and they all plunge to their deaths???????????????????


Please explain-- because since you seem to have challenged every basic and fundamental notion of engineering- science, and basic logic that is known to humanity-- you have( along with this other "Little Boy" mr. amitk 26) to surely be regarded as the next great genius after Einstien and Newton!!
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Old 20th December 2010, 12:17   #56
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My experience is little strange in this.

I had Fiat Palio Diesel. After 40000 kms one day it started stalling while idling and sometimes gave knocking. I took it to TATA FIAT dealer who after initial check up attached engine examiner which detected EGR problem. It was choked with soot and needed cleaning. The concerned engineer was clueless about it. After consulting some senior he told me that I need to leave car for three days to do the job. This particular dealership is primarily TATA.

I than once going out of station stopped for a quick check with another service station. Here the staf handling Fiats was from an old fiat dealer that had closed after TATA tie up. The mechanic there told me that it is 2 hours job but engine needs to be cooled down before he can do it.

Later I went to my old fiat service center who had stopped hadling fiats officially but did serviced fiats occasionally. My old mechanic there just opened the bonnet and with screw driver disconnected EGR in 3 minutes flat and told me to get it cleaned when I give the car for service next time.

Since Swift used Fiat engines may be there is a possibility of having facility to disconnect EGR just check with some seasoned FIAT mechanic.
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Old 20th December 2010, 19:09   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Sankar:

Indeed I still have the car-- actually I have two. A two door coupe with water injection and a four door automatic- without water injection.-- I was hoping to bring the coupe to India but the rules no longer allow me. The four door, my father has been using for the past 20 years- he has a particular spot for SAABs, used to rally them in Kenya in the 60's. And as he keeps telling me : the 900 was the last "PUKKA SAAB", after that they were just re badged GM's etc.. - Anyways next time in London I'll take some pictures.

amitk26: i quote: "EGR is easier to achieve then actual water injection because you need to place separate injectors in cylinders and no need to calibrate the injection point with stroke."

Exactly why sir???, Particularly since the only person in the entire world who claims this to be the case (i.e that seperate injectors are required) is a one Mr. Jomz ( and who also now admits is actually not personally involved in any R&D)

Mr. Jomz: 1944 technology-- well has it escaped you that the entire internal combustion engine is actually 1880 technology!

2nd. law of thermodynamics.. Surely you mean the firs't law.. however, let us give you the sense of doubt and apply the second law ( which as we all know examines the concept of entropy and thus suggests that effectively energy cannot be self- perpetuating).

But -- we already have a thing called a "TURBOCHARGER" which actually ( and I'm presuming you know the purpose of a turbocharger) recovers the waste energy and converts it into useful work.

Now tell me something: why would we wish to take energy that is already doing some usefull work-- i.e. pushing a piston down, divert it to produce steam- to presumably- push the piston down , when it was already doing it (i.e pushing the piston down) in the firs't place???????-- oh and take some of the "Waste" Energy away from the "TURBOCHARGER"??????

The question remains-- Why should I or anyone else wan't to convert our engines into a combined cycle " Steam Engine" ????? And one that decreases its efficiency!!

In short if my objective is to "INCREASE EFFICIENCY"-- why would I purposely go out of my way to "DECREASE EFFICIENCY"

Surely ( if you actually have any knowledge of engineering)- you would understand that it would be easier, cheaper and lead to greater gains in efficiency- if we skip the combustion cycle and just turn the whole engine into a steam engine!!!

And, even better, we just replace the re-ciprocating piston engine with a low pressure turbine driven by steam????--- we wouldn't even need a gearbox then-- would we????

"Would like to see pics of your 1990 Saab with water injection into manifold. That screwes up the ion sense techology in that engine."

Right , screws up the ion sense technology!!!-- exactly how?? ( though I'm not too worried since SAAB only introduced "Ion Sense" in 1995-- and my car is 1990)

Nevertheless perhaps you can tell me exactly how a KNOCK SENSING ( I take it you actually understand what this "ion sensing technology" is!!) technology can be 'Screwed up' by water--- because what really worries me is all those
Rotax engines that they use in Piston Engined AIRCRAFT- these have the "Ion Sensing" Spark plugs--- now just imagine when these poor guys have to fly through low clouds ( Read: lots of Water Mist) what happens- screwed up engine- it fails??? and they all plunge to their deaths???????????????????


Please explain-- because since you seem to have challenged every basic and fundamental notion of engineering- science, and basic logic that is known to humanity-- you have( along with this other "Little Boy" mr. amitk 26) to surely be regarded as the next great genius after Einstien and Newton!!
Only 12 samples of SAAB 900 with water injection was produced and that was in 1980. Please show me pictures and we'll talk about your 1990 Saab with Water injection.

Obviously, You don't know that exhaust heat energy is used to force air into engine by Turbo's. They don'r convert them into work there.

Read more about, 2nd law of thermodynamics - Yes I meant Seccond law which talks about entropy. That wuld give an insight in water injection and heat recovery,

Well, I've wriitten my thesis on Ion sensing - If you think they are just for sensing Knock , I pity you. By all means do your mods and I'll meet you after you have done the mods and you have shown improvement. I don't believe there is any purpose in talking to a person who does not even understand what is is the difference between exhaust manifold and exhaust stoke.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 02:33   #58
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"Only 12 samples of SAAB 900 with water injection was produced and that was in 1980. Please show me pictures and we'll talk about your 1990 Saab with Water injection."

Hmm.. very interesting- since SAAB only introduced the 900 in 1984: wikepedia, check it out!!!

"Obviously, You don't know that exhaust heat energy is used to force air into engine by Turbo's. They don'r convert them into work there."

Umm!! right, but then, as we all know they convert them into work in the combustion chamber----- but what is more interesting is that are you saying that exhaust heat energy is not 'Waste energy?. Now this is amazing: Self perpetuating energy!!-- hurry up Mr. jomz, write your theorem down- publish it, the whole scientific world is waiting for the great contradiction to Carnots Theorem ( oh and also.. also the law of "Exergy efficiency")

"Read more about, 2nd law of thermodynamics - Yes I meant Seccond law which talks about entropy. That wuld give an insight in water injection and heat recovery,"

Ahem!! The second law of thermodynamics- does not talk about "Heat Recovery " whatsoever- in fact tells you the opposite- that heat energy is constantly in loss when made to work mechanically---- Now if you even new the Firs't Law, you would know that the Second Law would need to be read with the "Law of Exergy Efficiency" ( Or as sometimes referred to as the Second Law of Efficiency)-- Pray tell me how your semi steam engine can achive this given that even the "CROWER" engine that you mentioned earlier has to create (Mechanically and not Mathematically) a further "Power Stroke" and a Further "Exhaust Stroke" .

"Well, I've wriitten my thesis on Ion sensing - If you think they are just for sensing Knock , I pity you. By all means do your mods and I'll meet you after you have done the mods and you have shown improvement. I don't believe there is any purpose in talking to a person who does not even understand what is is the difference between exhaust manifold and exhaust stoke."

Would love to know what else Ion Sensing is for, I'm sure so would General Motors oh and indeed Rotax-- not to mention the "Institute of Advanced Engineering: Linkoping University," at Stockholm-- who as I'm sure you must know, since you have "..written my thesis...." Have done some extensive research on Both Water Injection and Ion- Sensing technology.

Perhaps however you are very very right-- my understanding of Exhaust manifold and Exhaust Stroke ( incidentally based on Twenty Eight Years as a development engineer with company's like Omcron-in Sweden, and of course the late mid 80's Lotus Formula 1, not to mention "Conrero Racing" including a post Graduate from Cranfield)-- has led me to understand that EXHAUST STROKE is what one firs't does -after having eaten a very hot and spicy curry. Exhaust manifold is the device that lets the remnants of that curry out!!
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Old 23rd December 2010, 02:35   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
"Only 12 samples of SAAB 900 with water injection was produced and that was in 1980. Please show me pictures and we'll talk about your 1990 Saab with Water injection."

Hmm.. very interesting- since SAAB only introduced the 900 in 1984: wikepedia, check it out!!!

Checked out wikipedia, and SAAB 900 is made from 1978-1998. The details of the 12 samples with water injection (in 1980) are also written there.

Since your posts are totally baseless, I don't bother replying to the rest. I again say, please read ABOUT BASIC engine operation before carrying out mods and misleading people.

You have excellent credentials, sad that it is wasted in some workshop in Pondy. Given the tone of your posts, I kind of understand why Lotus etc are not doing well Now.

Last edited by Jomz : 23rd December 2010 at 02:39.
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Old 23rd December 2010, 09:15   #60
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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post

Would love to know what else Ion Sensing is for, I'm sure so would General Motors oh and indeed Rotax-- not to mention the "Institute of Advanced Engineering: Linkoping University," at Stockholm-- who as I'm sure you must know, since you have "..written my thesis...." Have done some extensive research on Both Water Injection and Ion- Sensing technology.
Sadarji, I missed this part, I've published a journal paper on my findings on ion sensing.
Feel free to download and read. It is in Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE)

Please forward to others who are interested. The paper talks about other applications of ion sensing technology - which is in use and what has been developed by the research group I was working for.

http://papers.sae.org/2009-01-0584
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