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Old 13th December 2010, 11:43   #1
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Question Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Hi all Swift D experts,

I am writing this on behalf of my friend who is not on Team-BHP. He has a 2010 January Swift DDiS with a mileage of 13K. The issue is that his turbo is whining madly for first few minutes of turbo usage. Activities done so far are listed below. Any suggestions will be welcome.

Issue occurs when:

1. First few minutes of turbo usage. I personally have tried using turbo only after engine temperature reaching half way. Still no use.
2. The whine only occurs for first few minutes of turbo usage. Aferwards it fades away to a very slight whine which I think is normal.
3. Even when whining heavily, theres no smoke or loss of power.
4. Issue occurred after second service. He had a turbo change during second service since his first turbo was faulty.

Things done so far:

1. Tried changing turbo a couple of times. Both the new turbos acted in exactly the same manner.
2. Checked oil level and A.S.S tells everything fine with oil.
3. Cleaned Inter cooler and other exhaust lines.

My Doubts:

1. Engine oil was changed during 1K service. So is it something related to lubrication? Also I've noticed that the engine oil light goes off after 5 seconds or so after cranking. In my Swift, its slightly lesser.
2. What if there is some hairline crack on somewhere in the exhaust lines to/from turbo which is causing the issue?
3. The noise is exactly like the turbo whine, high pitched. But is there anything can be cause of the noise?

Mods, I've started a new thread since whining related issues were not discussed in Swift turbo issues thread and also for a faster response. Please merge to the same if needed.
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Old 13th December 2010, 16:27   #2
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

What is the RPM on Tacho when the Turbo Whine is heard?
1) If its around 800-900, that means the Turbo is spinning more than required for first few minutes.

2) If its more than that, obviously the engine itself might be spinning at higher rpms for few mins.

I guess the first point might be applicable for the car in question.


After changing the turbo, were all Errors cleared from the ECU (This requires to connect to Laptop)? If I am Correct, this might not have been done and hence the ECU stills "THINKS" that the Old Turbo is fitted to the car.

After erasing the Errors from ECU, the ECU will detect New Turbo and 'adjusts' itself according to it.
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Old 13th December 2010, 16:34   #3
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi View Post
What is the RPM on Tacho when the Turbo Whine is heard?
1) If its around 800-900, that means the Turbo is spinning more than required for first few minutes.

2) If its more than that, obviously the engine itself might be spinning at higher rpms for few mins.

I guess the first point might be applicable for the car in question.


After changing the turbo, were all Errors cleared from the ECU (This requires to connect to Laptop)? If I am Correct, this might not have been done and hence the ECU stills "THINKS" that the Old Turbo is fitted to the car.

After erasing the Errors from ECU, the ECU will detect New Turbo and 'adjusts' itself according to it.
No, the turbo whine starts audible from around 1500 RPM or so. There is no sound during idle or any lower RPMs.

Regarding the second point, there were no errors recorded in the ECU. I think the ECU should adjust itself to the new turbo without any calibration since the ECU will be depending on the airflow only and not any other parameters related to turbo? Or am I sounding wrong? All other engine parameters seems to be fine. I will ask A.S.S on anything to be done to ECU after a turbo change.
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Old 18th December 2010, 21:28   #4
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

That means the Turbo is not getting Engine Oil Supply for first few mins.
Thats why the Turbo whine is heard.
Check whether the flow of oil to the turbo is proper or you will end in reducing the life of turbo.


In modern cars, the ECU does not gets adjusted by itself after changing "Electronic Parts".

If I am Correct, The Turbo is a MAJOR Part. And replacing it with a new one should record an error in the ECU.

Any ways check for the oil flow to turbo if it is proper within first few mins.


Also please confirm whether the Turbo Whine is heard only when the Engine is "COLD" or even during the Engine is Warm.

I think the Whine should not come when the engine is warm, since there is some oil in Turbo. Only when the Engine is Cold, the oil drips in Oil Sump and the Turbo is needing time for oil circulation (in your case)?
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Old 18th December 2010, 22:18   #5
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi View Post
That means the Turbo is not getting Engine Oil Supply for first few mins.
Thats why the Turbo whine is heard.
Check whether the flow of oil to the turbo is proper or you will end in reducing the life of turbo.


In modern cars, the ECU does not gets adjusted by itself after changing "Electronic Parts".

If I am Correct, The Turbo is a MAJOR Part. And replacing it with a new one should record an error in the ECU.

Any ways check for the oil flow to turbo if it is proper within first few mins.


Also please confirm whether the Turbo Whine is heard only when the Engine is "COLD" or even during the Engine is Warm.

I think the Whine should not come when the engine is warm, since there is some oil in Turbo. Only when the Engine is Cold, the oil drips in Oil Sump and the Turbo is needing time for oil circulation (in your case)?
In modern ECUs the codes are cleared after a few turns of the ignition switch. But the ECU begins to learn new parameters immediately as per the thread initiator's comments.

Solenoids and chips associated with the turbo are suspects. They are sometimes faulty. Restricted oil flow...you would think that, if this were the problem, the turbo would whine all the time since flow is restricted all the time.

It may be that the second turbo is also faulty....or that the 1st and second turbos are the very same turbo, no change was made.
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Old 19th December 2010, 21:54   #6
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Restricted oil flow...you would think that, if this were the problem, the turbo would whine all the time since flow is restricted all the time.
It may be that the second turbo is also faulty....or that the 1st and second turbos are the very same turbo, no change was made.
I said that the Oil Flow is not proper to the turbo for initial few minutes.
The Turbo might be getting Oil after some mins.


As you said, the Turbo might be the same.


The owner of the car should stand in front of the car while changing the turbo and verify whether the latter was really changed.
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Old 19th December 2010, 22:12   #7
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhp_maniac View Post
He had a turbo change during second service since his first turbo was faulty.
Could you please elaborate on why the turbo was changed? What was the problem that led to it being changed? Perhaps that's where your reason for the whine lies.
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Old 20th December 2010, 08:26   #8
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi View Post
As you said, the Turbo might be the same.
The owner of the car should stand in front of the car while changing the turbo and verify whether the latter was really changed.
Hi friend, the turbo was changed. Thats sure. The owner was there while it was changed and he confirmed me that they un-packed the new turbo in front of him and it took around 2-3 hours for the complete install. I too believe in the theory of turbo not getting oil supply for the initial time. But what all can lead to this? In fact the oil pressure warning is not thrown at any point of time. The turbo whine fades away after some time of usage. It's not there always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Could you please elaborate on why the turbo was changed? What was the problem that led to it being changed? Perhaps that's where your reason for the whine lies.
Hi SS-Traveller, his first turbo was changed for not having necessary boost. I have checked his first turbo and it was kicking at around 2400-2500 rpm only. He told me that the feel was like that from day one. After me telling him only he understood that the car is misbehaving and he complained it to A.S.S. Initially they made some issues but changed his turbo and the boost problem was solved.
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Old 20th December 2010, 09:36   #9
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Why don't you take a second opinion from another A.S.S. Don't tell them the turbo was replaced recently, let them form a conclusion first.
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Old 20th December 2010, 09:57   #10
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaks View Post
Why don't you take a second opinion from another A.S.S. Don't tell them the turbo was replaced recently, let them form a conclusion first.
Actually the owner has been to two A.S.S, two branches of the same dealer though. I was there with him when we went for the second A.S.S. Initially we were not able to replicate the issue as we have already traveled some 20 kms. So we left the car there for a day. The next day morning they started the car in front of us and the issue came up. The whine was horrible even while accelerating in neutral. The engineer was telling as if he doesn't have a clear cut answer on this. After pushing him a lot he also said OK to change turbo and check. So the second turbo change was done there. But the issue persisted afterwards also.
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Old 20th December 2010, 15:49   #11
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Seems to me to be a combination of things -but certainly seems to be emanating from vibration, when cold. Basically from not so careful a fitting:

The way the turbo is attached on the ddis is as part of the Exhaust Manifold and Catalytic Convertor. So that when fitted it sits very very very rigid.

If any of the gaskets were not renewed (i. e. old one's put back) and the bolts are not properly Torqued-- there will be vibration ( obviously in your case it's not too bad, since the vibrations settle down when the engine and turbo are warm-- but it's still not Good!!)--- also the gaskets and bolts for the Oil Feed and Return lines need to be given this much attention.

Also you may notice that between the turbo and Cat Con there is a metal locking plate which has Three Bolts. Both the Plate and Bolts have to be renewed- every-time the assembly is opened, just cannot use the same one's because they have already stretched/ weakened and will not be able to hold the correct Torque-- This will lead to excessive vibration>

Also when fitting a new turbo-- it really needs to be "Primed" with engine oil- before fitting it. -- Although eventually the turbo will have a proper balance of oil--- it's not good for this step to be left out!!

Problem we've all got is that Garage Mechanics (Even the one's trained by the manufacturer)-- never seem to understand why these things are important. I.E new Gaskets, Bolts, Proper Tightening Torque--- and most importantly proper cleaning and degreasing of the surfaces.

Get them to refit the turbo supervise it yourself--- it's the only way!!
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Old 20th December 2010, 21:00   #12
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Seems to me to be a combination of things -but certainly seems to be emanating from vibration, when cold. Basically from not so careful a fitting:

The way the turbo is attached on the ddis is as part of the Exhaust Manifold and Catalytic Convertor. So that when fitted it sits very very very rigid.

If any of the gaskets were not renewed (i. e. old one's put back) and the bolts are not properly Torqued-- there will be vibration ( obviously in your case it's not too bad, since the vibrations settle down when the engine and turbo are warm-- but it's still not Good!!)--- also the gaskets and bolts for the Oil Feed and Return lines need to be given this much attention.

Also you may notice that between the turbo and Cat Con there is a metal locking plate which has Three Bolts. Both the Plate and Bolts have to be renewed- every-time the assembly is opened, just cannot use the same one's because they have already stretched/ weakened and will not be able to hold the correct Torque-- This will lead to excessive vibration>

Also when fitting a new turbo-- it really needs to be "Primed" with engine oil- before fitting it. -- Although eventually the turbo will have a proper balance of oil--- it's not good for this step to be left out!!

Problem we've all got is that Garage Mechanics (Even the one's trained by the manufacturer)-- never seem to understand why these things are important. I.E new Gaskets, Bolts, Proper Tightening Torque--- and most importantly proper cleaning and degreasing of the surfaces.

Get them to refit the turbo supervise it yourself--- it's the only way!!
Thanks kulvinderji for throwing some light on this. The car is with me now. I will be visiting the A.S.S tomorrow and ask them for a re-install as you mentioned. I am not sure but, I will try my level best to be there at the time of install. Will keep you guys updated on the issue.
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Old 3rd January 2011, 12:47   #13
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Default Update

The vehicle was taken back to A.S.S and they did some tightening and re-fitting of certain hoses, and the car feels much better now. The huge whine has almost disappeared and what now left is the whine which we use to hear in normal cars. My friend was happy for what he got. Its been a week since the job was done, and still no signs of the problem re-appearing.
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Old 13th January 2014, 22:08   #14
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Default Re: Huge turbo whine when for first few minutes

I didn't want to start a new thread, as this issue has been discussed been discussed quite a few times.

Today in the evening while driving back my Sx4 (D) done about 20,000 kms, i heard a huge turbo whine while crossing 1700 RPM. This turbo whine brought a big grin on my face, but on other hand i got worried as well.

Till date i used to hear this turbo whine very faintly crossing about 1,700 RPM.

There wan't check light flashing on the Dashboard.

I very very rigorously follow one min idling rule, if this is a problem now, i sometimes wonder why all the issues arises with the people who takes utter most care of their car .
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