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Old 10th January 2011, 15:49   #46
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

Forgot to mention-- there is no rust on or around the damaged area, and in fact the damaged area has the original Coating as with the rest of the part.

So does lend itself to the idea that the part originally had defective welding but was coated anyway--- i.e. the coating is actually on /inside the damaged area.

As to the oil loss due to drain plug missing-- of course this is the fault of whoever did the last oil change, but unfortunately proving that is another matter.. I had a similar situation years ago, in London, when my I lent my Scirocco, to my brother for the weekend, on the proviso that he got it serviced before. He took it to some garage near to where he lived- they drained the oil , and forgot to refill with new oil. Unfortunately my brother not being mechanically minded, took the car drove off, noticed the red oil light- but decided that it was the LIGHT that was faulty, because in his understanding it was not possible for the Authorised VW Service Centre to have done anything wrong!! Lo and behold I had a seized engine ( Though ended up rebuilding it to 140 bhp from the standard 110-- so decided it wasn't such a bad thing to have occured.

Whether you can force the *** to accept their liability or not-- perhaps the question you should ask is: If that *** cannot be trusted to tighten a nut correctly- can they be trusted to re-build a whole engine.
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Old 10th January 2011, 18:20   #47
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

I spoke with the insurance surveyor once again who was a former hyundai service adviser. He said the plug is magnetic and screwed in and there is no chance any impact can cause it to come off because of vibrations. He also noted that unless the plug had been loosened manually this could not have happened. However, he said only the company (and not him) will send the letter and all he can do is send a report to the best of his ability.

The surveyor said the letter will most likely say that there was no direct damage to the oil sump and also the vehicle could not be inspected before it was disassembled so they could not assess the reason for the leak properly. Which means I would need even more evidence if I need to prove that it was indeed the service center's fault - whether to Hyundai or to a court of law. Are there independent experts who would do this? The vehicle is near Chennai presently.

Mr. Kulvinder,

Are you talking about the round hole in this picture?

Is that not supposed to be there?

P.S.: Where are the oil sump and drainage plug located? They seem to have taken pictures of the entire underside and this one is definitely missed out? Thanks.

P.P.S.: Are the kind of engine mods/rebuilds with a consequent power increase like you mentioned done in India? I have the exact worry - how good will the engine rebuild be, which is the reason why I wanted to sell it off and get another car earlier. But now I want to see this through to the end and see if I can find some favorable solution instead of giving up quickly.

Last edited by lynx : 10th January 2011 at 18:34.
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Old 10th January 2011, 20:23   #48
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

An engine damaged with oil loss I would not attempt to repair.

Since conrods went, it is difficult to say whether the block has not suffered, which might not be visible right now. Also oil starvation affects the oil pump, bearings pistons, cams, lifters and crank.

Adding up the cost and additionally taking the risk of the block suffering could prove rather expensive.

For the moment you have to wait for the report.

One mistake you must not make, which is showing your weknesses. If you come up confident then it is rather likely that they give in then seeing you being weak!

Also, the dealer is responsible for poor workmanship in the warranty time. They or their public liability insurance has got to pay out for it.

Once you have the letter, put on pressure accordingly. Also make ever so clear that you will relate your story to any forum you see fit under the freedom of speech.
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Old 10th January 2011, 21:56   #49
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

Lynx,

The hole is the firs't and second picture-- the one's with the pencil. The hole is on the fold of the metal section just above where the welding/non welding/ damage is being pointed to.

Didn't realise that the pictures were taken by the service agent.

These are red herring pictures-- i.e they don't really point to anything.- Even the damage they are pointing to is pretty irrevalent.

1. You didn't have any overheating warning- or oil pressure loss warning.

2. You say that when you stopped the car you saw a puddle of oil. Well then at the time the engine stalled- clearly there was oil in it. So unless there was a catastrophic internal Oil Circuit failure-- i.e. a crack in the cylinder block or Head or a major component breaking and the debris blocking the oil path----- it is highly unlikely that the engine overheated to the extent of major damage.

3. obviously there was some kind of fault in your engine-- however the question is whether it was so sudden and catastropic that the engine suddenly went dead?
Or Whether the ECU sensed something wrong and shut the engine down as a precaution.?

I'm not familiar with the Hyundai's-- but most cars these days have common ECU suppliers and I don't know of any ECU's that don't have this "Shutdown Function".

Now here's the real problem:

1. Your engine didn't restart- because the ECU wouldn't let it!! or Because it was Kaput.

Well the Firs't thing the mechanic should have done is: Checked for Compression in all the cylinders.

If this was ok, they should have filled oil, coolent etc..put a new oil drain plug... then cleared the ECU Error Code ( very easy even you could do this without any special tools) then tried to start the engine.

If the compression was not OK- then and only then advised you of the need to open it up.

2. Now you don't actually know wether the engine is Kaput or not.

Broken conrods, crankshaft etc..... well they only break due to extreneous loading or shock- (Thermal, stress, etc..) not due to loss of oil!! the bearings wear out-- and you lose compression. I.E you would have noticed loss of power/ misfire etc.. long before the engine stalled.

3. Basically- The SA is telling you that the engine is damaged-- without specifying exactly what...... What are the measurements of the crankshaft-- are they within regrind tolerance.- what is the state of the Piston bores- again measurements.- is the cylinder head warped- again measurements

Can they at least give you pictures of the engine parts that are claimed to be damaged. Have they actually opened it!!!! because from the pictures I see the engine is pretty much undisturbed.

I say the last bit as a particular caution--- I have noticed quite a few SA's across the country claiming that entire engines are kaput when in fact-- the ECU's have merely shut them down to avoid actual damage ( often from a minor problem).
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Old 11th January 2011, 13:12   #50
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

Lynx, I smell a rat here. I would advise you to get hold of some idependent mechanic whom you trust and have your vehicle inspected by him. I think the A.S.S. is taking you for a ride.
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Old 11th January 2011, 14:26   #51
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Lynx,

The hole is the firs't and second picture-- the one's with the pencil. The hole is on the fold of the metal section just above where the welding/non welding/ damage is being pointed to.
=================
I say the last bit as a particular caution--- I have noticed quite a few SA's across the country claiming that entire engines are kaput when in fact-- the ECU's have merely shut them down to avoid actual damage ( often from a minor problem).
In case of sudden oil loss the ECU will not shut down. It would not be quick enough to do so in any case.

Sudden oil loss can lead to breaking conrods due to the fact that they bearings seize etc. I have witnessed rthis in my 31 years in racing as well as in road going cars.

If you have sudden oil loss you will never attempt to start the engine before you do not turn it over mechanically. In most cases you will add more damage if you go along with your procedure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhorn View Post
Lynx, I smell a rat here. I would advise you to get hold of some idependent mechanic whom you trust and have your vehicle inspected by him. I think the A.S.S. is taking you for a ride.
There is definitively a rat there. Problem with the independent mechanic is that he could not see the engine/car in the state before dismantling it, which makes his work much more difficult.

Last edited by Jaggu : 12th January 2011 at 11:33. Reason: Please avoid Quoting entire large posts, effects readability. Thanks
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Old 11th January 2011, 18:16   #52
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

Hmm.. well perhaps I wasn't clear enough-

Yes the ECU won't shut down the engine ( although in some cars- which have electronic activated clutches/gearboxes, the ECU's do and all so put the car into freewheel)--- however in most cars what the ECU will do is prevent the car from restarting-- it's called 2nd and 3rd cycle shutdown.
Again as I said- I'm not familiar with the hyndai--- but most ECU's also have a "LIMP" mode. I.e. when they detect a major fault such as loss of Oil Pressure- they cut the engines power drastically--- and given that electronics are pretty fast-- the ECU will do it faster than any human behind the wheel!!

As to the conrods breaking-- well it would take a bit of time for the bearings to seize-- i.e heck of a lot of heat buildup-- leading to shock loading. And this would almost certainly also have destroyed the bores and pistons> Oh and that much heat buildup would certainly have warped the cylinder head- not to mention throw the timing completely out. i.e the camshafts would be rattling all over the place.

The point I was trying to make is that all this cannot happen without some major signs that it is about to happen. i.e Coolent Temperature and Oil pressure warning lights.... as well as most crucially the engine losing power.. making a lot of rough noises etc.. etc... etc..

Now what lynx describes is a sudden event-- i.e. that he was happily cruising along (no loss of power-- rough engine-- noises etc..) when suddenly a large noise happened and the engine went dead.

1. We know that Oil is under pressure when the engine is operating so if allowed to escape will go quite fast-- however, we also all know how long it takes for the oil to drain out during a service-- at least 45 mins-- I'm sure we can do some drain-time to pressure calculations correlated with the size of the oil drain hole--- but lets face it- it would still be a few minutes before the oil level was down to danger level--- and the Oil light (unless defective) would already be flashing away and the coolent temperature gauge would be shooting up and up and up.

In Short Plenty of Warnings that the engine is about to seize!!!

2. Doing a Compression test involves manually turning the engine--i.e. by hand---- if the engine turns ok and there is compression in the cylinders and there is nothing extraneous like knocking or grating etc.. noises---- then its pretty safe to assume that there won't be any damage caused by starting the engine.


In this case however what we have is a situation where:

1. The SA stated immediately Major Damage to the Engine, caused by sudden loss of oil--- caused by IMPACT DAMAGE.
(To support this he has supplied a bunch of totally irrelevant pictures)
When he has been pushed to explain this-- he has changed his mind to:

Major Damage to the Engine, caused by sudden loss of oil--- caused by a missing oil sump drain plug!!!


Well if he could spot the minute manufacturing defect on the chassis member- which is well away from the actual engine---- why did he not spot the missing Oil plug in the firs't place...................After all the oil Plug hole is far more glaringly obvious to spot--- for one thing it would still have oil dripping from it!!!

What is most suspicious however ( and I may be wrong) but from Picture 11 in descending order-- it appears that the Oil Plug is there and pretty much intact.


Try and get some pictures yourself of everything-- the engine pieces- the sump etc...
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Old 11th January 2011, 19:40   #53
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

The drain plug seems to be intact? I have circled it in yellow.

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Oil leak seems to be from the sump side?
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Old 11th January 2011, 20:52   #54
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

The spray on the bottom looks like its from the drain plug.
I guess they screwed it back on.
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Old 11th January 2011, 22:37   #55
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
In case of sudden oil loss the ECU will not shut down. It would not be quick enough to do so in any case.

Sudden oil loss can lead to breaking conrods due to the fact that they bearings seize etc. I have witnessed rthis in my 31 years in racing as well as in road going cars.

If you have sudden oil loss you will never attempt to start the engine before you do not turn it over mechanically. In most cases you will add more damage if you go along with your procedure.
I don't have the technical knowledge to give any input here but what the service engineer told me was consistent with what CPH has mentioned. He told me that the first thing they did was try to turn the engine over manually. He added that it did not work and only then was it opened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
The spray on the bottom looks like its from the drain plug.
I guess they screwed it back on.
Yes, they told me (and the insurance surveyor) that the drain plug was missing on receipt and they had replaced it before filling it with oil (before trying to mechanically turn the engine over).

Jaggu,

The insurance surveyor confirmed that the oil sump as such had suffered no damage and the cause was most likely a loosely fitted drain plug 'cause he said it is supposed to be well screwed in and is magnetic (?) so there is no chance it can dislodge due to impact.


I also spoke with a lawyer today and based on his advice, I went back and took pictures of the disassembled engine parts. I also took pictures of the undamaged oil sump from various angles and also the oil drain screw thread which does not show any signs of wear or damage. I will post them all soon. He suggested that for the case to have some heft I also claim some compensation. And that I can pay the service cost and take the vehicle since the consumer disputes redressal forum cases take a minimum of six months to resolve. Also I am a little wary of going this way and will try to keep it as the last option.

I will take all the evidence and bills and see if I can go meet someone in the regional office this weekend and get this sorted out. I'm also thinking of telling them I will go to the media with this issue like CPH suggested but I am not very confident about saying it. Do the news people really have interest in isolated issues like mine?

Thanks all once again, especially Chetan and CPH. I would not have gotten this far but for you guys. I owe you all a lot.
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Old 12th January 2011, 01:15   #56
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

Lose plug definite possibility after i looked at it again, after Nitrous comments. They might have wiped the sump externally and hence a wet clean look.
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Old 12th January 2011, 02:58   #57
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

@ Kulvinder singh - It takes much less than you think. At onr of the races at Brands hatch the car was quickly checked over with lubricants checked and correct. During the warm up lap the front crank seal raptured. The engine was running fine up to the the start and when the driver put down the foot the oil gushed out leaving a massive cloud of smoke. It took not even 200 metres and the car was standing still with a hole in the block and broken conrods. The marshalls had to cover the surface with cement to continue the race. It does not take as long as one would think. In other cases I have experienced destruction in windows as short as the above mentioned.
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Old 12th January 2011, 18:19   #58
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Ah... Brands Hatch, I remember the old track, almost identical to our one at Sriperumbedur, main difference was that at Brands- C1 was a sweeping uphill- and at Sriperumbedur its almost flat but with a slight inner line banking... full throttle in and out-- much more challenging than Brands!!!- though its bumpy as hell!!!

But I digress-- of course a Racing engine will lose its oil faster than a standard street car, because........ They run Dry Sumps... (which means much greater oil pressure.)
And of course a ruptured crank Oil seal will create a bigger aperture than a drain plug hole- together with the fact that when we race, were at full rev's from the word go, will all end up contributing to losing oil faster than my 4 year old daughter says "Flash Macqueen" every time she see's a red car. (Oh and any engine, racing or street, warmed up and booted to 10,000 rpm- with a ruptured oil seal will disintegrate in a few seconds or less)

But here's the thing with a Standard Wet sump street car:

1. They have pretty small oil drain plugs.... Why I wonder??

Could it be that since its the most vulnerable Oil Loss Part- i.e the one part whose entire purpose in life is to Lose Oil (at one's chosen time of course)-- they are deliberately designed to make the oil loss as slow as possible, in the event of failure (or improper tightening)--

2. Oil from the sump is picked up by the pump via a "Pick Up tube" which sits very close to the bottom of the sump. The low oil sensor is much higher-- so clearly the oil sensor is going to detect low oil much before the oil pump has run out of oil to collect from the bottom of the sump.

3. What Lynx is describing is a Sudden event following a loud noise- without any warnings-- lights noises etc.. and crucially a drop in power!!!

4. It is of course feasible that at 100 kph the warnings signs were not noticed!!

5. How many kms before the event was the oil service?--- if the Oil plug was loose enough to spin of, wouldn't it have happened much earlier?

I say this because- it may seem like a minor part, but the oil plug is the most oil loss vulnerable part in the engine--- they are designed and tested pretty extensively for just this kind of possibility i.e. spinning off due to incorrect torque.. (under or Over)

Obviously they can but not without a lot of warning signs dripping oil on the driveway etc..-- and not so rapidly!

In reality unless Lynx's engine is examined- we can't really assume anything:

So lets see the pictures--
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Old 12th January 2011, 18:28   #59
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Default Re: Severe engine damage in my Hyundai Accent

One possibility is the mech drained the oil, placed the plug back with hand one or two turns. Moved the oil pan from underneath and forgot to go back and tighten, very possible situation, while having chit chat with the neighboring bay mechanic
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Old 12th January 2011, 19:05   #60
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That's a possibility-- wouldn't surprise me. But then there would be a line of oil starting from the garage all the way to Lynx's house and anywhere else he would take the car.
And the oil warning light would be on long long back-- and it wouldn't take some 2 or 5 k kms for all the oil to empty--- oil nuts only have to be very very slightly loose for the oil to drip.
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