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Old 14th March 2011, 17:18   #31
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Nope.



@anilisanil : Even the EPS does not work if the engine is turned off/stalls. BTW, the Figo does have an EPS and not a HPS, no?
No mate, Figo has HPS.

I am not too sure if the EPS does not work when engine stalls. I assumed it would work because it derives its power from battery and not directly from the engine, unlike HPS which derives power directly from the running engine.
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Old 14th March 2011, 17:25   #32
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

@Anil:
Quote:
I am not too sure if the EPS does not work when engine stalls.
I have experienced this with the EPS's first hand in the Suzukis and Hyundais. The EPS and brakes do not get an assist with the engine off.
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Old 14th March 2011, 17:30   #33
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
@Anil:


I have experienced this with the EPS's first hand in the Suzukis and Hyundais. The EPS and brakes do not get an assist with the engine off.

Of course, my bad!!! Even EPS would not work because that would make the battery dead!! Thanks for the info though!! Let's get back to the original topic though- about engine stalling while downshifting!
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Old 14th March 2011, 17:44   #34
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Thanks a lot for the suggestions and pointers guys, and apologies for the delay in replying. As luck would have it, my PC died too And the sad part is I could not take my car to the A.S.S today due to some other work and hence I have called them up and fixed an appointment for Wednesday. Hoping for the best

I'll try to answer in 2 batches since there are lots of posts, hope the moderators wouldn't mind it

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
How much have you driven since the last fuel filter change ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel9999 View Post
The core areas I would look at are

1. Bad Fuel quality and blocked fuel filter
2. Fuel Pump Adjustment
3. Blocked Air Filter

If you check all these and if the solution still can't be found , then there might be something that needs a much deeper investigation. A F.A.S.S will also probably check the engine ECU for any signs of malfunction.
@KPZEN
As gemi had pointed out, the car is still running on the first fuel filter and the first service records at 2,500 KMs do not mention about any kind of filter cleaning done.

@ Diesel9999
Thanks for the inputs man, will surely ask the guys to check all the 3 mentioned. Not sure if they will run an ECU diagnostics since this will be my first visit for this issue, they might do some basic stuff and ask me to report later in case of any reoccurences. But will surely ask them about the check


Quote:
Originally Posted by narayanang76 View Post
If your gear shifting, usage of clutch, and rpm are correct then this shouldnt happen under normal circumstances. As others suggested, bad fuel could be the culprit. It could also point out to fuel filter, fuel pump, fuel pump relays, fuel lines etc.

I would say try out fuel additives for once - System G (petrol) System D (Diesel). They are available on select fuel pumps and cost few 100 Rs. Pls check out Team BHP Fuel Additives Thread for more info.

Thanks,
narayanang76
Ford, in it's manual, does not recommend any additives for the fuel, will ask them though, thanks for suggesting. I have a feeling it has to do something with the fuel line or pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
Seems like you and Jayded fill diesel from the same pump.
I guess not since I remember gemi's post sometime back about moving out of town to his native place, he can confirm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine View Post
@Jayded - when did you purchase the vehicle? and when was the first issue seen?

Based on what you reply to the first two questions. I would say that it could be due to fuel deposits on the injectors that would cause a situation of fuel spraying being erratic. Especially if your trying to increase RPM, which would mean more fuel to be sprayed, could be something that could compromise this that could cause your vehicle to stall.

Check it out and have them clean the injectors (using some flushing operation through a pressurised solvent) or unclog anything at the injector tip. Usually fuel injectors are quite expensive.

The other issue could be the clutch plate (probably friction material is showing some issue?) am not sure about this, could be something you need to check.

The biggest one is the gearbox itself, there could be numerous ones to this. We can try eliminating all three based on your input.
Hi Moonshine, my Figo is July manufactured and September purchased.
The first time this happened is around 1.5 months back. While decelerating hard (not sudden braking) at a red light, the car died.

Your suggestions regarding the injector getting deposits seems probable, will check with the service stationr regarding the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coloneljasi View Post
There are a lot of probable causes to your concern, including the ones already stated by our co-members. Rather than speculate, I suggest that you get the car over to the dealership asap. They might not need you to replicate the conditions, just tell them how and when the anomaly was noted and let them worry about narrowing things down. No offense intended.
Thanks for the suggestion coloneljasi, but that is where the real problem is. I'm not too confident at the A.S.S diagnostic process. My worst fear is getting my car back with a comment "We could not find any issues with the car". That will destroy my peace of mind and I don't think i will be able to drive freely as i would like. Hope they know what they are dealing with, fingers crossed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrogary View Post
okay people. i thought i was the only one who had this issue. my car also had such problems. its happened to me twice. and it was a wierd coincidence, that it happened at the same spot (traffic signal) when i go to work in the morning.

the way it happed was, i was in 4th, and saw the signal turning red. so just touched the brakes and pressed the clutch pedal for a downshift. and the engine just died! i was like ****!
coasted to a standstill at the signal (straight line path) but realized the steering is going to be extremely heavy. so was prepared for it. keyed off and started the car again with no issues that day.

have tried to replicate the error with no success.

i have seen this error state before while working on a CRDI engine and it was called injector bank error. in that case, the engine would cut off fuel while accelerating. this could be a similar case.

@ diesel9999:
1. Bad Fuel quality and blocked fuel filter
2. Fuel Pump Adjustment
3. Blocked Air Filter

these are probable for mechanical pump engines. not for common rail. the engine is 'supposed' to take the above factors into consideration.

i am not sure what to do about the ford A.S.S. as i wonder if they'll sort it out.

this is one thread i will keep a very keen eye on.

thanks for initiating it!

Nitro
Hi Nitro, just see my reply to Moonshine above, the scenario you mentioned is almost similar to what I faced the first time. Happened at a traffic signal while decelerating. Hope they have come across such issues and don't make this an experiment process.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gemithomas View Post
Ford changes the Fuel Filter only during the 30K service

I really dont know how they manage to do that with the kind of diesel we get in our country.


@ Jayded: I strongly recommend you ignore such things till it becomes something that can be replicated or where you can really put in a pattern of occurance. Otherwise the A.S.S guys would just fiddle with all the factory settings / fitments without any idea of what they are really doing. This could eventually lead you experiencing worser things from the car and Ford would call it "within tolerable limits"

Even in my case the DTE was just around 100km. So it could surely be one of those "irregular behaviour", that ford claims in the manual, when you are low on fuel. If nitrogary could confirm his DTE reading when it occured we could probably find a pattern.


PS: Just my thoughts after owning a FIAT for many years. My Motto is to "Run it till it Runs".
Gemi, I really don't want to live with it, because I want to live!
Jokes apart, I don't think I can ignore this one and live with it hoping it will heal itself. It totally takes out the fun in driving it around and cornering if I have to be prepared to deal with a dead car at high speeds. I was just lucky there were no vehicles ahead of me this time.

Just for people who know Trivandrum, this happened at the Vellayambalam roundabout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by streetlife View Post
@ jayded: Is there a jerk while shifting in smaller gears. Say 1st to second or Third to second?

This used to happen to my car. The car had jerky shifts and died while slowing or downshifting. After a test drive by the mechanic, Clutch bleeding was done. The problem resolved for around a month or so and returned.

I am planning to get it checked by a different service center now.

I am driving a Palio Multijet.
My car jerks most times i shift gears, but I would like to believe it's because of my driving style. Haven't had this jerky situation to this magnitude in my santro though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
Not Sure about FIGO, however I have Fiesta TDCi.

I have not experiened this scenariao when low on Fuel, DTE showing as low as DTE 60 or 70 KM. TDCi manual does state that when extreamly low on Fuel, to avoid AIR in Fuel line, it cuts off the supply. Howevere 130 does not look that low to cut the fuel supply.

I have expertienced something similar, as downshifting from 3rd to 2nd to cross a hump. After crossing, engine died. I attribute it to the sheer dead spot caused by excessive low RPM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsessedByFIAT View Post
Hi!

Even I had similar instances of engine stopping all of a sudden.

1st time it was when I was navigating a turn on the ghat. The engine stalled and I did not have a clue what next to do. Escaped without any issues.

Other times has been happening on traffic signals with AC on. Feels like there is no power left in the engine. If I race it a bit (about 2k RPM), the car pulls it off, else it just stalls. :(
In both these cases, the car was doing low speeds I assume (?). But my case is a little different, the car was moved to normal speed (around 40) from around 60-70 kmph. There is no questing of lugging the engine in my case. I'm almost certain on that aspect.

Will answer the other posts in a while, thanks a lot for the suggestions

Last edited by jayded : 14th March 2011 at 17:45.
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Old 14th March 2011, 17:50   #35
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
I have faced this issue occasionally in my Ikon 1.6 & also my Fiesta 1.6. I am sure its got nothing to do with incorrect usage of clutch or anything. While on the move, a normal downshift can make the engine go OFF & I never lug my cars!

Never faced this issue with the other cars I have driven. I have assumed that it was something to do with the fuel so far. Now that the wrong DNA is in the Figo as well I would be interested to know the reason why..!
Seems like Anachronix is right!

It can assumed that it is a Ford DNA.

Many Figo owners experience it, anachronix experienced it in his Ikon and Fiesta and here's more!

Escorts and Mustangs from abroad.

Ford Escort Owners Association

Stalling during downshifting - MustangForums.com

Warm Engine Stalls When Clutch Prressed - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum

I went through all these topics and the basic problem is on similar lines.
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Old 14th March 2011, 18:25   #36
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Seems to be a fuel problem as others too suggested.

Change the fuel(drain and refuel), Change filling station/fuel brand, check fuel lines, bleed the line.

I encountered a similar problem, explained below, it may be of help.

I encountered a similar problem in my Zen diesel. Car mostly used to die suddenly at the signals, or just seconds after starting from a idling. Some times it used to miss a few beats and start again due to the movement. Deadliest scenario happened on highway from Vijayawada to Hyderabad. I was doing good speed and down shifted to overtake a bus. A lorry was coming from the opposite and had some clear seconds to overtake the bus, and the engine died and the car suddenly lost momeentum. I neither had overtaking speed, nor had time to get back behind the bus. Luckily there was enough margin on the right(which was not normal on that highway) and I took the car to extreme right and stopped it.

I was sure the symptoms were of improper diesel supply. Zen diesel was a low tech car, no electronics involved. We tried everything from changing fuel completely, trying different fuels, different brands, differnt filling stations, changing fuel lines, filters, changing filter assembly, cleaning bosch pump and nozzles. Nothing solved the problem and I lived with it for almost 6 months, sometimes it appeared frequently and sometimes rare, but it did exist.

Every thing in the system was checked and everything was ok. Moreover, the problem never occured while the service centre guys were taking a trial and that made things worse, , you know how their reactions will be in this scenario.

Finally on my request, the service engineer installed an external electric fuel pump in the fuel line. This solved the problem. We added this pump in the fuel line just after the diesel filter to have some extra pressure in the diesel line. Finally we thought the fuel pressure was falling some times though the reason was not clear.
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Old 14th March 2011, 18:50   #37
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
I think the reason is incorrect usage of clutch, gear and rpm levels.

What happened is that when the RPM went quite low, you did not probably realize it and the engine stopped and then you panicked and hence could not fgure out what was happening.

But then again this is just an assumption. To point out the real culprit what we can do is:

1. Tell me what all after-market accessories have you put?
2. Did the car start normally once you halted and tried again?
3. Are you using all fluids which are ford OEMs?
4. Did you ever fill fuel in the car when the fuel tank was almost empty?
Hi Mustang, I am not sure about your comment on the wrong usage of clutch and RPM levels. Like I had mentioned, this happens with the clutch pedal depressed, and there is no question of lugging the engine. I'm almost certain about that. This according to me is not a case of engine lugging at low rpm and dying out. Imagine you hitting a corner at fairly decent speed, you suddenly depress the clutch to downshift (braking slightly) and phoofff!

Now to answer to your questions:
1) I've added absolutely NO electrical components from the after market. None from Ford either.
2) Yes, cranked up in the first try itself
3) I guess so since I've only taken the car to the A.S.S in Trivandrum.
4) I usually do a tank-to-tank and fill up fuel when the DTE touches around 40-50. Is that too low and falls in to "Almost empty?" Is that a cause?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
I have been facing such issues and generally ignored them as my fault. I an confirm that this happened to me even when the tank is full. This happens when I downshift and mostly near bumps. I depress the clutch and when release it i find to my horror that the engine is stalled.

I slowly realized that I had been doing nothing to stall the car but it just stalls by itself when I depress the clutch(last two time I did not release the clutch, the engine just stalled). This is prevalent only after second service (if my memory serves me right) and when the a/c is on. I am just back from service center, got my clutch switch checked and ECU too for any DTC errors, none were found, we reset the KAM now. And I am really hoping for the best!
From what you have mentioned, It appears to be a problem similar to mine considering you are not lugging the engine too much on reaching the speed breaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
I have faced this issue occasionally in my Ikon 1.6 & also my Fiesta 1.6. I am sure its got nothing to do with incorrect usage of clutch or anything. While on the move, a normal downshift can make the engine go OFF & I never lug my cars!

Never faced this issue with the other cars I have driven. I have assumed that it was something to do with the fuel so far. Now that the wrong DNA is in the Figo as well I would be interested to know the reason why..!
Same with me, no such issues with the Santro we had.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vignesh_ny View Post
The fear or the real issue here is more on the steering failing to respond when the car switches off. Do all the other Figo users, who have reported an engine shut down face this issue as it is a very dangerous situation and I would expect this to happen with EPS and not HPS systems as hydraulics should not get affected by the engine switching off. Or am I missing a point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garipagol View Post
The engine stalling can happen due to bad fuel, dirty fuel injectors etc. But losing power to the steering is more serious. This means that your electrical system is shutting down. Even if your engine stalls, normally you should not lose steering. You must have your electrical system thoroughly checked, including the ECU. In some cars the diagnostic system stores the last few failures (don't know about Figo though). Ask your ***. Do not drive this car till you nail the problem.

Rgds
Hi guys, yes, as you have mentioned, the steering felt very very tight and could not have been steered enough had there been any obstacles right in front.
Moreover in normal driving our brain and hand is coordinated to deal with the usual turning force required and once this changes in a split second, it's difficult to correct it in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Nope.

If the engine stalls, the brakes and the steering get no assist. This is how it is in most modern cars!

@anilisanil : Even the EPS does not work if the engine is turned off/stalls. BTW, the Figo does have an EPS and not a HPS, no?
You are right, both the steering and brakes lose assistance, but steering dies all of a sudden while the brakes are usable till the vacuum is retained in the cylinder. Do make sure you press it firmly at a stretch and do not pump the pedal which will exhaust the vacuum hence rendering the pedal useless

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Seems like Anachronix is right!

It can assumed that it is a Ford DNA.

Many Figo owners experience it, anachronix experienced it in his Ikon and Fiesta and here's more!

Escorts and Mustangs from abroad.

Ford Escort Owners Association

Stalling during downshifting - MustangForums.com

Warm Engine Stalls When Clutch Prressed - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum

I went through all these topics and the basic problem is on similar lines.
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Old 14th March 2011, 19:16   #38
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

I think i have had this problem couple of times on my figo tdci and once on our Fiesta tdci. basically i was going at 60-70Km/4th gear or maybe 5th gear and had to downshift due to traffic congestion. Downshifted to 3rd but didn't release the clutch since the traffic slowed even more and wanted to shift to 2nd. The engine suddenly stalled. Cranked again.The engine started immediately and was off.

Somehow felt it was due to wrong use of clutch or gear and it;s not frequent at all. For eg the Figo has done 20K + now this has happened only 2 or 3 times at max.
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Old 14th March 2011, 19:52   #39
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrogary View Post

@ diesel9999:
1. Bad Fuel quality and blocked fuel filter
2. Fuel Pump Adjustment
3. Blocked Air Filter

these are probable for mechanical pump engines. not for common rail. the engine is 'supposed' to take the above factors into consideration.

i am not sure what to do about the ford A.S.S. as i wonder if they'll sort it out.

this is one thread i will keep a very keen eye on.

thanks for initiating it!

Nitro
dude,

whether mechanical pump or common rail, these are valid issues for smooth running of any car. No amount of electronics or computers can offset the effects of a blocked air/oil filter and a faulty fuel line. You can check with your local mechanic if you want.
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Old 14th March 2011, 20:08   #40
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Hi,
If it is an unexpected stop, it should be logged as a fault, with its fault code, in the ECU. What did scanning the ECU throw up?

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 14th March 2011, 20:09   #41
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

I am not an expert but I believe we can come to conclusion only when we hook up a datalogger (laptop)while running trying to simulate similar condition by depressing clutch and downshift. Ideally ecu will signal the injector to spray little more fuel when the rpm drops fast to keep the engine running.
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Old 14th March 2011, 20:10   #42
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Ok Jayded,

I think I have a solution to your problem.

There is definitely a fuel issue mostly probably with the fuel pump.

Ask the A.S.S. guys to replace the fuel pump since your car is in warranty, If they disagree, tell them the situation or else call up ford india customer care.

And i advice everyone to fill up when the Dte reaches about 60 or so and do not go below that. If you have been driving for long on Euro 3 diesel and DTE does go below 30 or so then if the fuel is contaminated, the pump may develop a problem.
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Old 14th March 2011, 20:12   #43
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
If it is an unexpected stop, it should be logged as a fault, with its fault code, in the ECU. What did scanning the ECU throw up?

Regards
Sutripta
I dont think so it will be logged as fault. When the sensor mis behaves then it will be termed as fault. If the ecu instructs to feed less fuel when you release the acclerator which may die during this process.
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Old 14th March 2011, 20:27   #44
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

^^^
Hi,
ECU is not expecting the engine to stop. It stops. Unexpected behaviour is normally considered a fault and logged. But depends on the programming of the ECU.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 14th March 2011, 21:04   #45
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel9999 View Post
dude,

whether mechanical pump or common rail, these are valid issues for smooth running of any car. No amount of electronics or computers can offset the effects of a blocked air/oil filter and a faulty fuel line. You can check with your local mechanic if you want.
i worked in diesel engine calibration and mechanical development for two and half years. dont get me wrong, i am not trying to refute what you said. i have seen the discussed problem earlier and hence the comments.
electronics are capable of diagnosing faults in air and fuel delivery systems. they will log an error code and a MIL will glow if something goes wrong.
none of the figos discussed here had the MIL or engine check lamp glowing. someone had it checked as well with the A.S.S
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