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Old 14th March 2011, 21:06   #46
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by asdfvinay View Post
Seems to be a fuel problem as others too suggested.

Change the fuel(drain and refuel), Change filling station/fuel brand, check fuel lines, bleed the line.

I encountered a similar problem, explained below, it may be of help.

I encountered a similar problem in my Zen diesel. Car mostly used to die suddenly at the signals, or just seconds after starting from a idling. Some times it used to miss a few beats and start again due to the movement. Deadliest scenario happened on highway from Vijayawada to Hyderabad. I was doing good speed and down shifted to overtake a bus. A lorry was coming from the opposite and had some clear seconds to overtake the bus, and the engine died and the car suddenly lost momeentum. I neither had overtaking speed, nor had time to get back behind the bus. Luckily there was enough margin on the right(which was not normal on that highway) and I took the car to extreme right and stopped it.

I was sure the symptoms were of improper diesel supply. Zen diesel was a low tech car, no electronics involved. We tried everything from changing fuel completely, trying different fuels, different brands, differnt filling stations, changing fuel lines, filters, changing filter assembly, cleaning bosch pump and nozzles. Nothing solved the problem and I lived with it for almost 6 months, sometimes it appeared frequently and sometimes rare, but it did exist.

Every thing in the system was checked and everything was ok. Moreover, the problem never occured while the service centre guys were taking a trial and that made things worse, , you know how their reactions will be in this scenario.

Finally on my request, the service engineer installed an external electric fuel pump in the fuel line. This solved the problem. We added this pump in the fuel line just after the diesel filter to have some extra pressure in the diesel line. Finally we thought the fuel pressure was falling some times though the reason was not clear.
The highway incident you just mentioned is exactly what I am trying to avoid in future here. I use the same pump almost always since it's a pretty reputed one and pretty close to my house too. It's a BP outlet.

And as you mentioned, I'm not sure how the A.S.S guys will proceed with this. Hope it's not a waiting game with few trial and error initially. On the fix that you had done, I'm not sure since I can't gauge the complexity of such a solution and I don't think anything like that will work here since the car is just over 6 months old.

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
If it is an unexpected stop, it should be logged as a fault, with its fault code, in the ECU. What did scanning the ECU throw up?

Regards
Sutripta
Hi,
The car is yet to be taken to the Ford A.S.S. Will report back if they do the ECU scanning in the first place.

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Originally Posted by vijaycool View Post
I am not an expert but I believe we can come to conclusion only when we hook up a datalogger (laptop)while running trying to simulate similar condition by depressing clutch and downshift. Ideally ecu will signal the injector to spray little more fuel when the rpm drops fast to keep the engine running.
I don't think they will do this since this is the first time I will be visiting them, let's see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
Ok Jayded,

I think I have a solution to your problem.

There is definitely a fuel issue mostly probably with the fuel pump.

Ask the A.S.S. guys to replace the fuel pump since your car is in warranty, If they disagree, tell them the situation or else call up ford india customer care.

And i advice everyone to fill up when the Dte reaches about 60 or so and do not go below that. If you have been driving for long on Euro 3 diesel and DTE does go below 30 or so then if the fuel is contaminated, the pump may develop a problem.
Thanks for the suggestion Mustang. Like I have mentioned quite a few times, I'll try talking with the S.A. about the replacement and let me see what his reaction is. I don't want to be too pushy here since I've already complained about my experience with them so far and do not want them to blacklist me

I believe you are into Quality Control, so if you have the liberty to answer this, kindly do so, else no issues, I understand and respect that. Taking into account the kind of fuel that we get in India, what would be the normal life expectancy of a fuel pump that goes into a Figo? Or in my case would it be due to fuel which was way too much contaminated that normal levels?

Anyways I'll get back to you with what the A.S.S. tells me to do.
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Old 14th March 2011, 21:06   #47
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
Ok Jayded,

I think I have a solution to your problem.

There is definitely a fuel issue mostly probably with the fuel pump.

Ask the A.S.S. guys to replace the fuel pump since your car is in warranty, If they disagree, tell them the situation or else call up ford india customer care.

And i advice everyone to fill up when the Dte reaches about 60 or so and do not go below that. If you have been driving for long on Euro 3 diesel and DTE does go below 30 or so then if the fuel is contaminated, the pump may develop a problem.

Mustang do you suggest the same to other figo owners facing the same issues?


Even I faced the same issue at least thrice in recent past. Engine stalls when I depress the clutch!
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Old 14th March 2011, 21:17   #48
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by jayded View Post
Taking into account the kind of fuel that we get in India, what would be the normal life expectancy of a fuel pump that goes into a Figo? Or in my case would it be due to fuel which was way too much contaminated that normal levels?

Anyways I'll get back to you with what the A.S.S. tells me to do.
A fuel pump will last a lifetime if the fuel is slightly contaminated and if the pump is never left in a low fuel situation.

But if the fuel tank is almost dry say like 1.5 L of fuel AND/OR the fuel is quite contaminated (above expected levels) then the fuel pump may even conk off the very same day.


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Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
Mustang do you suggest the same to other figo owners facing the same issues?
Yes i suggest the same action if it has occurred more than thrice.
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Old 14th March 2011, 21:25   #49
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
A fuel pump will last a lifetime if the fuel is slightly contaminated and if the pump is never left in a low fuel situation.

But if the fuel tank is almost dry say like 1.5 L of fuel AND/OR the fuel is quite contaminated (above expected levels) then the fuel pump may even conk off the very same day.




Yes i suggest the same action if it has occurred more than thrice.
But Mustang, I never waited until DTE is too low. Mostly I get it filled with the reading at 80. Buy it was never below 60. Also, I doubt if it could be the fuel quality as I get it refilled only at reputed COCO filling stations.

Why I am mentioning this is to wonder if there could be any other reasons why a fuel pump should go bad. Of course assuming that the problem is only due to the fuel pump.
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Old 14th March 2011, 21:46   #50
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
A fuel pump will last a lifetime if the fuel is slightly contaminated and if the pump is never left in a low fuel situation.

But if the fuel tank is almost dry say like 1.5 L of fuel AND/OR the fuel is quite contaminated (above expected levels) then the fuel pump may even conk off the very same day.
Thanks a lot for the clarification. I usually go till the DTE is down till 40 before filling up again. I guess I need to limit it to 60 from now onwards.
If the pump is so sensitive to low fuel levels, no idea why certain dealers deliver brand new cars to customers with such low fuel in the tank
There has been reports in the forum where the DTE was even single digit on taking delivery of a new car. Totally beats me!

If there is an issue with the fuel pump, would it reflect in the ECU scan?
That would avoid some speculations.
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Old 14th March 2011, 22:48   #51
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by jayded View Post
The highway incident you just mentioned is exactly what I am trying to avoid in future here. I use the same pump almost always since it's a pretty reputed one and pretty close to my house too. It's a BP outlet.

And as you mentioned, I'm not sure how the A.S.S guys will proceed with this. Hope it's not a waiting game with few trial and error initially. On the fix that you had done, I'm not sure since I can't gauge the complexity of such a solution and I don't think anything like that will work here since the car is just over 6 months old.
To add to my previous post, my car was just around 6 to 8 months old and it had clocked around 10k when this problem started(in 2005). Everything was done under warranty except the external fuel pump which costed me around Rs.400. I lived with this problem for almost a year by which time the car has clocked 25k. I was so frustrated and was thinking of selling the car, but finally it was all ok.
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Old 14th March 2011, 23:51   #52
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
Ok Jayded,

I think I have a solution to your problem.

There is definitely a fuel issue mostly probably with the fuel pump.

Ask the A.S.S. guys to replace the fuel pump since your car is in warranty, If they disagree, tell them the situation or else call up ford india customer care.

And i advice everyone to fill up when the Dte reaches about 60 or so and do not go below that. If you have been driving for long on Euro 3 diesel and DTE does go below 30 or so then if the fuel is contaminated, the pump may develop a problem.
Mustang, The Fuel Pump used on the Disel figo is the same as the one used on the Diesel Fiesta ?

I think problem is isolated to Diesel figos only. None of the Fiesta owners complained.

I have tried to replicate this in my petrol figo and nothing happened. Waited until DTE went down all the way to 7 and still nothing.
Usually refill when the DTE shows 10 or less.


jayded
Very unlikely that a ECU scan can diagnose a faulty fuel pump.

Jayded, anilisanil and others having this problem.

Take the car to an empty stretch of road and push the car to 4,000 or 4,500 RPM in 3rd and 4th gear.
This should clear up the injectors, fuel pump if they are blocked.

Last edited by Captain Slow : 14th March 2011 at 23:55.
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Old 15th March 2011, 10:32   #53
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
So, do they clean it in between when you give it for servicing ?
I don't think they touch it unless the water in pump indicator comes on. I was amazed at how they can recommend such long intervals considering the fuel quality in India. I think Maruti cleans it every 5K and changes it every 10K for the DDIS. Atleast thats what the guy told me when i was looking at the Ritz DDIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
I think the reason is incorrect usage of clutch, gear and rpm levels.

What happened is that when the RPM went quite low, you did not probably realize it and the engine stopped and then you panicked and hence could not fgure out what was happening.

But then again this is just an assumption. To point out the real culprit what we can do is:

1. Tell me what all after-market accessories have you put?
2. Did the car start normally once you halted and tried again?
3. Are you using all fluids which are ford OEMs?
4. Did you ever fill fuel in the car when the fuel tank was almost empty?
Its got nothing to do with the clutch.

ABout other questions:
1.None
2.Normal
3.Should be OEM as far as Ford A.S.S tells me.
4.Around 40 just once and around 70 4-5 times. Oterwise always above 100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
Ok Jayded,

I think I have a solution to your problem.

There is definitely a fuel issue mostly probably with the fuel pump.

Ask the A.S.S. guys to replace the fuel pump since your car is in warranty, If they disagree, tell them the situation or else call up ford india customer care.

And i advice everyone to fill up when the Dte reaches about 60 or so and do not go below that. If you have been driving for long on Euro 3 diesel and DTE does go below 30 or so then if the fuel is contaminated, the pump may develop a problem.
I'm not sure about the pump. A faulty fuel pump on a petrol engine would under normal circumstances give you a misfiring feel while climbing slopes or after around 60-80km of continuous running. A diesel pump that runs at much higher pressure should show much more serious symptoms is what i think.

One of the possibilities in my mind is that it could be those rare instances where the turning on of the a/c compressor coincides with the gear change and turning of power steering thus leading the engine to suddenly ask for much more power than the current fuel pressure can supply. We would not be able to replicate such an instance since even if we try to turn on the a/c while changing the gear the engine parameters wont be the same as when it happens by chance. It must have more to do with the ECU coding than anything else. Its funny that this did not come up during the extensive tests that Ford did on the Figo before launch. Or maybe even the test drivers dismissed it as their fault in managing the clutch. And if by any chance it is something like this its not something that the A.S.S guys can solve. They would just fiddle around with parts and wait till the next occurance to fiddle with the next.!!!

PS: @Jayded. I have sent you a PM. Call me at 98950 488 48 in case you need any help.

Last edited by gemithomas : 15th March 2011 at 10:33.
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Old 15th March 2011, 11:31   #54
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by jayded View Post
Thanks a lot for the clarification. I usually go till the DTE is down till 40 before filling up again. I guess I need to limit it to 60 from now onwards.
If the pump is so sensitive to low fuel levels, no idea why certain dealers deliver brand new cars to customers with such low fuel in the tank
There has been reports in the forum where the DTE was even single digit on taking delivery of a new car. Totally beats me!
+1 to your point! If that is the case, the dealers will be delivering the car with either more fuel that the DTE shows above 70 or give you a brand new fuel pump gift wrapped when you take delivery of a Ford. Lol!

@ Mustang, this is news to me. So every time I tank up when the DTE is below 60/70 means I am basically screwing up the fuel pump and I need to replace the same? You really think this is a viable solution from Ford?

If you say, thats the way it is... is it some problem thats spread across the petrol variants as well (including the Fiesta/Ikon)?

Though this is an intermittent problem, the impact of such a failure could be worse! I wish Ford does something to find the root cause of the problem rather than happily replacing the fuel pumps under warranty!
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Old 15th March 2011, 11:46   #55
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Hi Jayded, i own a Ford Flair 1.3 L and experienced the same issue atleast 4 times. Mostly when it was down-shifting coupled with right turns. Happened to me twice while driving down Kodaikanal hills with a sand-laden lorry right at my rear bumper trying to scare me off the road!!! Even my brave-heart skipped beating. But, didn't get satisfactory answers from the Ford guys. I strongly suspect the malfunctioning of the electrical wiring system. Mind you, the problem occurred only with the headlights + the fog lights on. Never happened otherwise. Any clues?
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Old 15th March 2011, 12:41   #56
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

@asdfvinay

Oops, i thought your trouble started late, my bad. Will update what the A.S.S guys have in stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Slow View Post
Jayded, anilisanil and others having this problem.

Take the car to an empty stretch of road and push the car to 4,000 or 4,500 RPM in 3rd and 4th gear.
This should clear up the injectors, fuel pump if they are blocked.
Aye aye Captain,

Will do the same on way back from work today. Just need to get hold of a pretty empty stretch, which would not be difficult.

By the way I tried to replicate the problem on my way back yesterday and had no luck (or bad luck) on straight lines. It worked just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemithomas View Post

One of the possibilities in my mind is that it could be those rare instances where the turning on of the a/c compressor coincides with the gear change and turning of power steering thus leading the engine to suddenly ask for much more power than the current fuel pressure can supply. We would not be able to replicate such an instance since even if we try to turn on the a/c while changing the gear the engine parameters wont be the same as when it happens by chance. It must have more to do with the ECU coding than anything else. Its funny that this did not come up during the extensive tests that Ford did on the Figo before launch. Or maybe even the test drivers dismissed it as their fault in managing the clutch. And if by any chance it is something like this its not something that the A.S.S guys can solve. They would just fiddle around with parts and wait till the next occurance to fiddle with the next.!!!

PS: @Jayded. I have sent you a PM. Call me at 98950 488 48 in case you need any help.
Thanks a ton for the gesture Gemi. Appreciate it. I'll try to get hold and talk with the guy and see what could be the issue. I too feel the issue is a bit too complex to pin-point at a particular cause or component without proper knowledge or previous experience of such occurrences.


Just for people who are familiar with the city, I fill up fuel from the BP outlet just adjacent to the CCD on the Kawdiar stretch. I personally have had no experiences of bad fuel or heard anyone say in similar lines. May be my bad luck? Hmmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
+1 to your point! If that is the case, the dealers will be delivering the car with either more fuel that the DTE shows above 70 or give you a brand new fuel pump gift wrapped when you take delivery of a Ford. Lol!
And that could be rightly called the Ford "Essential" kit , just kidding here.
But yeah, how much money are the dealers saving anyways, by skimping on 3-4 liters fuel? I would rather prefer some fuel in my car than some low quality accessories as freebie from the dealer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitalson View Post
Hi Jayded, i own a Ford Flair 1.3 L and experienced the same issue atleast 4 times. Mostly when it was down-shifting coupled with right turns. Happened to me twice while driving down Kodaikanal hills with a sand-laden lorry right at my rear bumper trying to scare me off the road!!! Even my brave-heart skipped beating. But, didn't get satisfactory answers from the Ford guys. I strongly suspect the malfunctioning of the electrical wiring system. Mind you, the problem occurred only with the headlights + the fog lights on. Never happened otherwise. Any clues?
That is a scary situation especially considering a winding road and car coming down. Did you get the electricals checked? For me once it occurred with headlights on and 2 times while off/day time. dealer
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Old 15th March 2011, 13:03   #57
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
@ Mustang, this is news to me. So every time I tank up when the DTE is below 60/70 means I am basically screwing up the fuel pump and I need to replace the same? You really think this is a viable solution from Ford?

If you say, thats the way it is... is it some problem thats spread across the petrol variants as well (including the Fiesta/Ikon)?
!
If you read the manual carefully it always tells you to keep atleast 1/4 of the fuel tank full.

This is because fuel moves around as the car moves around, While climbing steep slopes, fuel goes backward and vice versa, even when we turn fuel moves around.

This also happens in petrol variants (ask me i had to get the fuel pump of my ikon changed) but is less prominent as if you rely on DTE, it will be less prominent.

for eg: DTE shows 20kmpl

which can mean there is 2 L of petrol or 1 L of diesel left. So in such a scenario, diesels are more prone to fuel pump damage.
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Old 15th March 2011, 13:19   #58
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Hey Mustang,

The Diesel Figo and Diesel Fiesta have the same Fuel pump Brand and make ?
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Old 15th March 2011, 14:13   #59
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

^ Not sure but I think it will be the same.
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Old 15th March 2011, 14:38   #60
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Default re: Figo TDCi: Dies occasionally while downshifting! Solved: Updated firmware by Ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
If you read the manual carefully it always tells you to keep atleast 1/4 of the fuel tank full.

This is because fuel moves around as the car moves around, While climbing steep slopes, fuel goes backward and vice versa, even when we turn fuel moves around.

This also happens in petrol variants (ask me i had to get the fuel pump of my ikon changed) but is less prominent as if you rely on DTE, it will be less prominent.

for eg: DTE shows 20kmpl

which can mean there is 2 L of petrol or 1 L of diesel left. So in such a scenario, diesels are more prone to fuel pump damage.
From my personal experience,

South City Ford at Mathura Road delivered diesel Fiesta with DTE indication as 7 Kms.

Harpreet Ford at Moti Nagar delivered Petrol Ikon with exactly 1L petrol; luckily the pump is just across the road

Adulterated fuel can play havoc with your vehicle. Presently my Ikon is undergoing repairs after being re-fueled with adulterated petrol on the highway near Karnal. There were periods of unresponsiveness or blank periods while accelerating which I thought were related to problems in the acceleration system. But turned out that they were related to poor quality petrol.

In the diesel Fiesta there have been many instances in the last 5 years when the DTE reading is in single digit prior to refueling. However, I have never faced any problems wrt the car becoming unresponsive on the road.

Ford Motors should also tell their dealers to read the manual carefully and deliver cars with 1/4th tank full.
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