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Old 19th April 2011, 12:45   #16
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

Its not about ARAI bashing but what we have always spoken about is ARAI not being in tune with the times. We still are enforcing laws which were enforced ages ago in other countries. For example safety. We now for a couple of years have a law for seatbelts and light leveler when these were enforced ages ago in other countries. What they enforce now is ABS, seatbelts and at least 2 airbags in all models. Its no where close to being adopted here in India! And sadly it will have to be enforced by ARAI.

And the best side of the story is that the same manufacturer exporting the same model will provide with the mandatory Aribags, ABS, etc. So, this basically means that the life of an Indian (considering most vehicles sold are lower end variants) are not dear enough to ARAI or the manufacturer.

So its not about bashing the fuel economy figures. They are good as a comparison across cars even though they are not real world figures. I also, commend the effort put in to reduce pollution but why not safety? Are the manufacturers nexus so strong that your hands are tied?

How is it that a company like ford is going to give ABS and airbags in all variants of the Fiesta although it didnt come from ARAI as a compusion? Do they value the life of the Indian customer more that ARAI? I am guessing not! They must have realised that more and more people in India are opting for it as a majority are educated enough. You dont need to be an engineer to figure these things out!

Apart from the above I read that you also do safety testing? Do you mean crash testing? If your standards are the same as worlwide standards, how can an Ambassador or a Thar be sold at this day and age?

I am sure everyone would love to hear back from you soon. Thanks.

Last edited by sarmarishi : 19th April 2011 at 12:51.
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Old 19th April 2011, 12:46   #17
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

What a joke.

Let anyone from the A.R.I.A drive our cars and achieve that kind of mileage.

My simple query, I've driven the i10 Auto in the best possible way to achieve the A.R.I.A mileage specifications.(No A/C, no Music system, simple driving, never above 60 kmpl, never in STOP GO traffic, never with any passenger, no extra weights, No Horn, almost a torture kind of drive) Its impossible to get that 16kmpl in an Automatic i10, come what may.
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Old 19th April 2011, 12:52   #18
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

ARAI FE figures are real, for what they claim. At a constant 60km/hr in top gear if am not wrong.
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Old 19th April 2011, 12:53   #19
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
My only grouse with ARAI is the unrealistic FE figures ........
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
Gansbab,


- Why are the ARAI fuel efficiency test figures so un-realistic?


Personally, i understand the need for a standardized test that can be repeated accurately time and again, and compared from car to car -- but some people see these as "unrealistic/marketing figures", since the results are almost always higher than real-world conditions. Could the procedure be tuned to be just as repeatable, but provide more real-world driving like results? Is this some international standard being followed (ie more like freeway driving than indian city driving)?

Related thread : How ARAI does its Fuel Efficiency Testing (Article on how ARAI conducts its fuel-efficiency tests)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvish View Post
ARAI is no where close to being a regulator like SEBI or even TRAI (although this may be debated, in my opinion very few other regulators has been so customer centric).

Where they have failed:

-Fuel efficiency figures are a joke. They should stop it.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by dar3dev|l View Post
i would seriously like to know the body that Audits the ARAI results.
............

2) Again taking the example for the FE figures. Even a common man with no technical knowledge at all knows that the figures are completely inaccurate !! What is done to ensure the mistakes (if any) made by ARAI exec's are clarified or checked for its accuracy ??


Lastly, do ARAI follow RTI ?? I have never seen detailed test reports been shared on the websites or to public.
To just throw some light on the above FE related queries, I would like to mention something that is currently going on at ARAI based on my interaction with on of the ARAI engineers.

ARAI wants to introduce a new system for evaluating the FE of the cars and they are now developing the Indian Drive Cycle based on which the FE tests will be conducted and eventually provide us with more accurate FE numbers

Can anyone with more information on this throw some more light?
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Old 19th April 2011, 13:42   #20
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

Zoomsun,

See the link in my post above. The IDC is talked about in that thread in a writeup by Hormazd Sorabjee.

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Old 19th April 2011, 14:47   #21
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

i dont feel there is a large deviation in ARAI claimed figures and actual FE of any cars.

Can some one give examples where there is a deviation.

infact earlier manufacturers used to put any mileage they wished in the ADs. ford fiesta 40kmpl and what not.

for my car ARAI says its 19.1 and i daily driving conditions in traffic i get around 18 and on highways i get 22-23 kmpl.

so 19.1 is perfect according to standard test conditons of ARAI.


Yes i have a bash bat for ARAI.

Why the hell on the earth do the dangerous overhanging trucks, broken chassis fatichar buses and polluting 6 seaters ply on the road?

in other countries trucks are not allowed to carry material in open spilling it all over.
in our country the tanker spills water allover and bikes slip on them.
there are no number plates, brake lights on most of the trucks.

ARAI has to force the RTO offices to implement proper laws for all sorts of vehicles.

Agreed ARAI has best of the engineers, but the cannot change the rules and ways the ARAI works.
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Old 19th April 2011, 15:01   #22
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

amit, I wonder what does ARAI have to do with it. There is a law against overloading trucks with overhanging rods and all. Its the job of the police to enforce the law. So you have hit the wrong ball with your bash bat.
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Old 19th April 2011, 15:09   #23
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

Poor Gansbab ... I feel for you. I do agree on some points which he is trying to explain. ARAI has certainly helped the Indian Auto Industry for sure. Pollution norms are getting strict day by day. ARAI claimed FE figures are also reasonable. I get more mileage than given by ARAI on the highways. I guess avg given for Swift DZire Petrol is 15.XXX & i usually get more than 17-18 regularly on high ways.

Coming back to some trucks, buses issues people has mentioned. ARAI only certifies new vehicles coming out of factory. Not vehicles in use. Now a days most vehicles coming out are good when brand new. Problem is people dont use the way it should be. If truck wala is overloading the vehicles & met with an accident, what ARAI can do about it? I have seen transporters loading more than double capacity given by the manufacturer. Here in India people dont maintain the vehicles properly. Specially the commercial vehicles. I have seen Volvo's also make hell lot of smokes. Its due to bad maintenance & bad fuel.

I don't want to comment much on 3 wheeler issue. I dont know rules about that. But for city use its the best vehicle. Bajaj Auto's are there in India for more than decades now. In city areas its the best mode of Public transport. In 30-40 Rs you can travel 3 people for 4-5 kms in reasonable comfort. So cheap, isn't it?

Many problems mentioned by many here are not the ARAI problems but the general infrastructure issues. Government of India should improve the things like good roads, strict rules etc. That will make our life better.

These are just my thoughts
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Old 19th April 2011, 15:15   #24
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

What is the reason for stating "3 Wheelers are not safe"? How do we compare the safety aspect of the following 3W, Maruti Omni, 2W?

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Old 19th April 2011, 15:24   #25
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

I recently purchased a Maruti Suzuki Swift VDI. Had to pay extra for ABS. Was willing to pay extra for Airbags and a rear wiper & defogger. No luck. What did ARAI do in terms of setting the safety norms for these cars?

Take the safety features of any car model that is sold both internationally and in India. Please compare and tell me whether the Indian model has better safety features than the international model. And yet you talk about how ARAI has prevented us from being swamped with unsafe dumped imports.

ARAI is a cruel joke. They add no value whatsover to the Indian automobile industry, except for bringing out stupid mileage figures.
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Old 19th April 2011, 15:37   #26
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

I think it is very unfair to engage in senseless ARAI bashing. ARAI is a decent and professional organization. Because of them, there has been several changes in the market as it has been already described on this thread.

They are evolving. They do need to go a long way in several aspects like better testing facilities, safety standards, more realistic FE numbers etc. I know that they are aware of these shortfalls and working on it.
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Old 19th April 2011, 15:44   #27
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

I agree all your points related to mandatory safety features like ABS, Air Bags, etc. Those should have been made mandatory in all vehicles.

Instead of blaming ARAI, put it on ourself, the customers. It is after all our safety and think of a situation that if every customer is safety oriented and denies to get a car without ABS & Air Bags, will the companies manufacture cars without them? a big 'NO'! But are we doing that? again a big 'NO'. OEMs are here for business and ARAI too. If ourself don't care about personal safety why should a businessman think of it? Of course ABS is related to public safety, but again there are customers who want a 'thing' takes him to the destination at a lower investment rather than wanting a 'safer means of transport'

Regarding overloading, trucks without head lamps, number plates blah blah blah, what should ARAI do here? Its RTO & cops duty to screw such irresponsible idiots.
Blaming ARAI for such activities is like asking a Judge / lawyer to catch the thief and culprits instead of cops
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Old 19th April 2011, 15:54   #28
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

People say ARAI mileage figures are unrealistic, may be but in my case the ARAI rating is achieved. My ANHC has given me a mileage of 17 KMPL whereas the certificate rates the car at 16.7 KMPL. Just check out this link :: Honda City :: , I am not sure whether this is result of ARAI testing or Honda testing.
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Old 19th April 2011, 15:58   #29
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Boss View Post
I agree all your points related to mandatory safety features like ABS, Air Bags, etc. Those should have been made mandatory in all vehicles.

Instead of blaming ARAI, put it on ourself, the customers. It is after all our safety and think of a situation that if every customer is safety oriented and denies to get a car without ABS & Air Bags, will the companies manufacture cars without them? a big 'NO'! But are we doing that? again a big 'NO'. OEMs are here for business and ARAI too. If ourself don't care about personal safety why should a businessman think of it? Of course ABS is related to public safety, but again there are customers who want a 'thing' takes him to the destination at a lower investment rather than wanting a 'safer means of transport'

Regarding overloading, trucks without head lamps, number plates blah blah blah, what should ARAI do here? Its RTO & cops duty to screw such irresponsible idiots.
Blaming ARAI for such activities is like asking a Judge / lawyer to catch the thief and culprits instead of cops
Well, your analogy is a little unwarranted, since ARAI's mandate is to develop safe vehicles (As mentioned on ARAI's website). So ARAI should at the very least, make it mandatory for manufacturers of vehicles to offer safety features as an optional feature at an extra cost. However, even Airbags, which is a mandatory safety feature in other countries are'nt always available to the consumer. And asking customers to not buy such vehicles implies that you are passing your responsibility to the customers. A regulatory body should perform its responsibilities, rather than attempting to pass the buck.

Are we expecting too much from ARAI to define and set some basic safety standards?
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Old 19th April 2011, 15:58   #30
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

Quote:
When the single wheel is in the front (the "delta" form, as in a child's pedal tricycle), the vehicle is inherently unstable in a braking turn, as the combined tipping forces at the center of gravity from turning and braking can rapidly extend beyond the triangle formed by the contact patches of the wheels. This type, if not tipped, also has a greater tendency to spin out ("swap ends") when handled roughly.

With two wheels in the front (the "tadpole" form or "reverse trike") the vehicle is far more stable in braking turns, but remains more prone to overturning in normal turns compared to an equivalent four–wheeled vehicle, unless the center of mass is lower and/or further forward. Motorcycle-derived designs suffer from most of the weight being towards the rear of the vehicle.

Due to the incidence of injuries related to their use, a 10-year ban was placed on the sale of new three-wheeled Bikes in the United States in January 1988.
Three wheeler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Why are so many people hurt in ATV accidents?
These devastating accidents are perpetuated by a regulatory system that is still struggling to legislate and implement meaningful and life-saving safety standards. ATVS themselves were introduced to the market in 1971, and were initially three-wheelers. These vehicles were involved in so many rollovers and injuries, that the U.S. Justice Department filed a lawsuit alleging that ATVs and their manufacturers violated the Consumer Product Safety Act. In 1987, the ATV manufacturers agreed to stop producing three-wheeled ATVs, but did not recall the 2.4 million defective ones that had been already sold. Many of these extremely dangerous ATVs remain in use today.
ATV Accident Lawyer: Three Wheeler, 4 Wheeler and Quad Accident Attorney

Three Wheel Vehicle Safety Issues | eHow.com

Inherently, a two-wheeler is safer than a three wheeler. I've posted a few links so I don't have to enter a lengthy explanation for a topic that's been researched to death (pun not intended).

Bicycles with trainer wheels or carriages for the differently abled in similar configuration have the same issues inherent to three-wheelers. A combination of oversteer, wheel lift and inbuilt instability exacerbate the issue.

IMO, ARAI should know this. It is common knowledge among anybody with a basic physics degree and some understanding of weight distribution and gravitational forces. They may have chosen to not pursue it for reasons other than knowledge or lack of it. We know lobbying and political pull play a large part in Indian industry, so I'm not sure anybody needs to take offense when called out on it.

The fact is that evolution of the industry has happened because manufacturers want to compete. ARAI vets, but does not propose. Manufacturers decide which models they want to introduce subject to specs. ARAI cannot take credit for this. And they should not - their job is that of a watchdog. And unfortunately, like every other government body, they work in isolation.

Ideally, they should be partners with the NHAI (for example) to develop a blueprint for the transport and road travel future of the country. They should be helping drive down (pun not intended) the cost of transportation, and make it easier as it is still the best way of navigating small distances.

As of now they are hobbled by many factors. I don't know about the negative comments on the organisation as I'm kind of new. All I know is that a lot of vehicles approved for use in India are not consistent with safety (or other) standards that protect human lives. Vehicles are supposed to improve our standard of living, not become terrors. Irresponsible driving not counted - which is another grouse, but outside the scope of this thread.

Do not approve vehicles that can turn turtle if kicked hard enough. Simple.
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