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Old 19th April 2011, 16:30   #31
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
.....you are passing your responsibility to the customers.....
To make it clear, No way I'm connected with ARAI and posting on behalf of fellow customers.

My voice is that 'why to blame only on ARAI? Why not the customers (ourself) take initiation by avoiding the cars without safety features?'. Once when the sales trend changes, OEMs are forced to introduce those features as standard features or atleast as an option. Why should we expect a third party to care for our own safety?

OT again : Once when Hellmates were made mandatory, was that 100% followed by customers? No. Then what is the need of that act?
The same may continue here, even after making ABS & Air Bags as mandatory features.
I came across a fleet operator with modern trucks (tractor trailers) and shocked to hear from him that he removed the ABS unit from all his vehicles since the braking was not good with ABS

One of my father's friend met with a minor accident on his innova and Air bags diploid. He don't want them to be repaired as he feels it is of no use and costly too.

There are customers here in India with the above thoughts. What to do in such cases?
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Old 19th April 2011, 16:47   #32
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

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amit, I wonder what does ARAI have to do with it. There is a law against overloading trucks with overhanging rods and all. Its the job of the police to enforce the law. So you have hit the wrong ball with your bash bat.
what i mean by overhanging trucks etc is - ARAI should make it mandate for truck manufacturers that there should always be enclosed structure for carrying load like in the US.
if enclosure is mandatory then there are no overhangs

In india ARAI has made it mandate that trucks should carry the reflective tapes of various sizes and colors.
similarly for bus body they should have certain norms over the sizes.

Last edited by amit_mechengg : 19th April 2011 at 16:49.
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Old 19th April 2011, 16:50   #33
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

Isn't most of what we are asking be taken up by the govt? Are we not confusing ARAI's mandate here.
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Old 19th April 2011, 16:52   #34
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

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Originally Posted by Mr.Boss View Post
To make it clear, No way I'm connected with ARAI and posting on behalf of fellow customers.

My voice is that 'why to blame only on ARAI? Why not the customers (ourself) take initiation by avoiding the cars without safety features?'. Once when the sales trend changes, OEMs are forced to introduce those features as standard features or atleast as an option. Why should we expect a third party to care for our own safety?

OT again : Once when Hellmates were made mandatory, was that 100% followed by customers? No. Then what is the need of that act?
The same may continue here, even after making ABS & Air Bags as mandatory features.
I came across a fleet operator with modern trucks (tractor trailers) and shocked to hear from him that he removed the ABS unit from all his vehicles since the braking was not good with ABS

One of my father's friend met with a minor accident on his innova and Air bags diploid. He don't want them to be repaired as he feels it is of no use and costly too.

There are customers here in India with the above thoughts. What to do in such cases?

Well said ! In Europe PSA came up with DPF (diesel particulate filter) even though the legislation never demanded it. But then due to their aggressive marketing, other OEMs were forced to come up with their own due to social pressure.
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Old 19th April 2011, 16:54   #35
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Isn't most of what we are asking be taken up by the govt? Are we not confusing ARAI's mandate here.
whenever a new model is to be launched auto manufacturers have to obtain certification from ARAI.

ARAI is planning to introduce lots of norms for commercial vehicles.

this should be one of the norms.
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Old 19th April 2011, 16:58   #36
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

^^ Is ARAI the only certifying agency? Aren't there any other in India?

Spike
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Old 19th April 2011, 17:12   #37
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

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Originally Posted by Mr.Boss View Post
To make it clear, No way I'm connected with ARAI and posting on behalf of fellow customers.

My voice is that 'why to blame only on ARAI? Why not the customers (ourself) take initiation by avoiding the cars without safety features?'. Once when the sales trend changes, OEMs are forced to introduce those features as standard features or atleast as an option. Why should we expect a third party to care for our own safety?

OT again : Once when Hellmates were made mandatory, was that 100% followed by customers? No. Then what is the need of that act?
The same may continue here, even after making ABS & Air Bags as mandatory features.
I came across a fleet operator with modern trucks (tractor trailers) and shocked to hear from him that he removed the ABS unit from all his vehicles since the braking was not good with ABS

One of my father's friend met with a minor accident on his innova and Air bags diploid. He don't want them to be repaired as he feels it is of no use and costly too.

There are customers here in India with the above thoughts. What to do in such cases?
A regulator such as ARAI needs to set the standards and regulations. Part of their mandate is setting safety standards for vehicles that ply in India. Setting lax standards is therefore a direct failure of their responsibility as a regulator.

Customers might do many stupid things, that does not make it a standard. Enforcing laws such as helmets for two wheeler riders, is a function of the judiciary and the law enforcement agencies, namely the traffic police.

I understand, and am in total agreement, that you wish customers to be more concerned about their own safety, however, ARAI has to be held accountable for the fact that they do not even make it mandatory for autmobile manufacturers to offer safety devices if the customer is willing to pay for it.
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Old 19th April 2011, 19:01   #38
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Dear All,

I am truly overawed by the responses I have had to the post. Firstly I would like to thank all the posters along with their specific concerns / comments.

I would first like to apologise for late reply but being in the UK and supposed to be on work does make it difficult. Nevertheless, I will try and explain all the points raised. Again, I am open to critical comments, but the reason for my post in the first place was the many of the bashing was incorrectly directed.

ARAI and its role

ARAI's role is that of a test agency (Type Approval Authority) to certify the vehicles prior to registration. This means that once the vehicle is registered and in-use on the road, ARAI has no influence over its safe use or alleged illegal condition in use. The Ministry of Road and Transport along with the local RTOs have the regulatory powers to stop any dangerous vehicle plying on road. Why they don't do it is a completely different topic as we all know.

Nevertheless, ARAI is pushing for more in-use vehicle checks for passenger as well as commercial vehicles(Similar to European countries) which could arrest polluting / dangerous vehicles posing more danger to other road users. It's coming in, but due to the bureaucratic approach within the Govt. it will take time.

As per the requirements of the National Accredition Boards (NABL & NABCB) ARAI is audited religiously as any other test agency in the world. as per ISO17025/ISO 9001:2008

3-Wheeler Approvals/Safety Approvals.

The current safety standards for the 3-wheelers are admittedly being improved with problems arising due to increased carriage of passengers. The approved 3 - wheelers are mostly approved as Driver+3 configuration, however, again as said earlier, whatever happens post registration is a different area. While approving the seating, there is a minimum requirement for the seat width / per passenger which is mandatory.

About vehicles turning turtle, I would like to clarify in no country has a safety standard mandatory for on-road performance evaluation under certain conditions. It would be difficult to ascertain the safe driving threshold as they would be different from vehicle to vehicle (speed, vehicle weight, stability due to suspension settings, etc.) as well as road conditions (camber, curve, slippery road, etc.). That is why some auto magazines conduct tests such as elk test, or reverse-elk test (google please), but that is again not mandatory anywhere.

Coming to how Maruti Omni, a crash test is only required for vehicle kerb weight 1500kgs (which is the standard norm, in EC regulations). As these vehicles fall under that, they can get away.

I admit here that we need to have an off-set frontal crash requirement just as in European countries, but coming to the point of ARAI again, it cannot mandate the standards. It tests and approves what has been agreed under the Govt. Central Vehicle Motor Vehicle Rules (CMVR)


Fuel Economy Variation

You have to agree that everyone's driving conditions differ which have a direct effect on the FE. No standardised test procedure will give you an accurate FE when you are driving it. The aim to have a ARAI FE figures is to have a common comparison between the vehicles as they are all tested under the same laboratory conditions. The figures (IMHO) are obtained by a calculation known as Carbon Balance method when the vehicle undergoes an emission test on dynamometer. The basic principle being that since is fuel composition is carbon based, FE can be calculated by comparing the carbon balance post the driven test and dividing it by the number of kms. run

This is a standard practice everywhere in the world. I think we have had posts explaining this in quite detail

Truck Chassis / Underrun Protection Devices / Roll-over protection

Again since ARAI is not the enforcement agency for on-road use, it cannot dictate the vehicle conditions to be used on road. However, it does give a feedback and some points have been incorporated for chassis transit on road. (You may see a temporary structure for driver, which wasn't there some 5 years ago). As of law, ABS is mandatory for commercial vehicles and so is Side and Rear Underrun Protection (in-line with European requirements). The Roll Over protection is mandatory for tractor applications and also Truck Cabs. I also believe that the Bus approval also makes ROP mandatory. If not, it will soon be.

Additional safety features viz. ABS / Airbags

Be ready for the shock. As of today, ABS and Airbags are not mandatory for any passenger cars (M1 Category) for its sale in Europe. However, the customer demand for these safety features is very high due to awareness about the NCAP ratings (again, NCAP is not mandatory, mind you!)

It is the customer who dictate and manufacturers give it back to us. If you browse through this forum, you still have about 20-30% T-Bhpians questioning about the use of these features (some even declaring they don't see the need of Left -ORVM!) If that's the case in T-BHP just imagine the layman

Anywayz, Indian market is very very price centric still and unfortunately a low cost vehicle which misses out on these safety features does sell well. Again, unfortunately, those who want to buy it, cannot even have it as an option as an ABS system fitment involves quite a change and its not commercially feasible for the manufacturer

Accepting ECE Certification

This is a bit political issue. If we accept the ECE regulations, will the UN-ECE (European members) accept our approvals?? We are not technologically backward in anyways as we used to be 10 years ago. However, this is being discussed under the UNECE and there would something called a GTR (Global Technical Regulations). Approvals issued as per the GTR by a member country signatory to the 1998 UNECE convention, would be accepted by other member countries.

A bit of blowing my trumpet now.. Having worked in the ARAI (VEL), and TUV Rheinland (German Test agency), I now work for the Vehicle Certification Agency, which is the UK type approval authority for European approvals

Again sorry for the long post, but I have tried to answer every comments. In case you have any homologation queries, please do not hesitate to PM me and I will answer you as best as I can

Gandhar

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Gansbab

While I appreciate ARAI's role, how on earth dones it manage to pass some three wheeler monstrosities which are slow, unsafe and have diesel motors which are so noisy that a safety expert would not permit such noise in a factory environment?
Dear Ajmat,

I accept that it is the way you see it on the road. However, if you see the type approval document, the engine compartment has a sound deafining material which mysteriously vanishes once the vehicle is registered

Again, there is no standard which dictates the power to weight ratio (which would ensure the road speed). That depends on the end user whether to buy such a vehicle. Legally, I hope you can understand such a criteria cannot be set. And even if it is done, the user overloads the vehicle to the extent that the vehicle becomes a slow couch again..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansbab View Post
Hi All,

Anywayz, what I would like to stress here is ARAI is India's regulatory body...

I would like to rephrase this statement to correct the fact.

ARAI is India's regulatory body for type approval prior to registration.

Clarification again: It does not have regulatory powers(like the TRAI or SEBI) for in-use conditions (read, after the vehicle is registered and the vehicle owner uses it own public roads).

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
@Gabsaab

I am sorry to say, but you seem to suggest that it is the ARAI which has been responsible for the growth of the Indian auto industry.

But here, people, common people like us, will express our opinions with whatever information we are able to gather. And we join these forums, to express our opinions, share our information and also gather information from others and listen to their views.I am happy to see, that we have an ex-ARAI guy among us who will be able to provide us about the inside info.

Also, I am disappointed by your post, which is all praise for ARAI, but does not admit to any problems at all. The ARAI has definitely done well on the emission norms, but on the safety front it fares poorly. What ever safety that we have in our cars is largely because the manufacturers offer them, and some safety conscious customers want to shell out the extra money.

Our crash test norms are a complete sham. Nothing except seat belts and a high-mount stop light seem to be a serious requirement. The trucks and buses on our roads, are danger to everybody. I agree some improvements have been made, but there is still a very long way to go.

One simple thing ARAI can do, stop the transport of truck chassis on the country's highways. Pray tell me what is stopping them??

But like I said, forums are a place where we are here to discuss and express our opinions, and share information with each other. So please don't take anything said by the member's personally. If you feel anything is wrong with an opinion, share your view as to why you think so. That is what we are here to do after all.
Dear Julupani,

Its Gansbab or Gandhar

Anywayz, I never said that ARAI was responsible for growth in the Indian automobile industry. What I meant was that it is instrumental in advocating legislations (through the enforcement body, Govt.) which ensured safer roads. An example is mandatory ABS for commercial vehicles and buses. I admit there is still a long way to go. For that matter not only ARAI but all the other type approval authorities are..(read, ICAT, VRDE, etc.)

I also do not only want to praise ARAI but I just made my voice clear about the misconceptions about the role of ARAI in the Indian Auto industry.

It is not that I do not want to admit any problems, but all I was saying was that people are barking up the wrong tree in ignorance. I have tried to explain this also in another post of mine (which will take a while via the moderators)

I would be more happy to read where members of T-BHP would help with constructive comments about ARAI which is what the forum should serve.

I completely agree that our crash test requirements haven't been updated (they are in the process). On the bus / truck arena, we have a Bus Building Code (similar in lines with the European requirements, may be not all..) and for trucks, there is a proposal (I think..or may be already in force) to include guidelines for aftermarket cabs (Read wooden decorated cabs)

Gandhar

Last edited by Jaggu : 19th April 2011 at 23:07. Reason: Back to back posts, please use Multi Quote (Quote +) instead. Thanks
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Old 19th April 2011, 20:06   #39
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

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Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
what i mean by overhanging trucks etc is - ARAI should make it mandate for truck manufacturers that there should always be enclosed structure for carrying load like in the US.
if enclosure is mandatory then there are no overhangs
Misconceptions

There are many trucks in the US which don't carry enclosed loads. THere are trucks which carry things with overhangs too, Hell I even see pickups here with stuff hanging out.
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Old 19th April 2011, 20:19   #40
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@gansbab, Thanks for the detailed post which surely opens eyes on what ARAI does. As a company we also work with ARAI on several issues and stuff. But as a person I didnt have an idea on all these aspects. Now we know!

It is difficult to believe some of these rules. What shocks me most is the requirement of crash test is only for vehicles over 1500Kgs. That means 90% of the cars on our road does not need a crash test certificate to be sold. It is preposterous.
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Old 19th April 2011, 20:25   #41
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^^ Yeah, some rules are really funny e.g. the Head Impact test, Bumper Test, Lighting Installation for 45 degree visibility, Wiper stall test.

Spike
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Old 19th April 2011, 20:29   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
^^ Yeah, some rules are really funny e.g. the Head Impact test, Bumper Test, Lighting Installation for 45 degree visibility, Wiper stall test.

Spike
Hi Spike Arrestor,

Could you clarify what do you mean funny? epecially wrt to
Head Impact Test, Lighting Installation Test, Wiper stall Test?

Maybe we discuss on that then.

Gandhar

Quote:
Originally Posted by dot View Post
@gansbab, Thanks for the detailed post which surely opens eyes on what ARAI does. As a company we also work with ARAI on several issues and stuff. But as a person I didnt have an idea on all these aspects. Now we know!

It is difficult to believe some of these rules. What shocks me most is the requirement of crash test is only for vehicles over 1500Kgs. That means 90% of the cars on our road does not need a crash test certificate to be sold. It is preposterous.
Pardon me.. I seemed to have goofed up here as I got mixed up N1 Category

At the moment, the full frontal crash checks only for the Steering Impact and column movement, and not actual dummy impact, which is applicable for M1 (passenger) and N1 (commercial) category vehicles with GVW upto 1.5 tonnes.

The offset crash test (when mandated) will apply to all M1 vehicles upto 2.5 Tonnes (inline with European legislation).

Last edited by Vid6639 : 19th April 2011 at 22:23. Reason: merged posts as they were posted within 20mins
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Old 19th April 2011, 21:05   #43
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Default Re: ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer

@Gansbab - I have one query - Is the saree guard on motorcycles mandated by the government or the engineers at ARAI have come up with the idea? It is painful to look at a Ninja 250 or R15 with a saree guard
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Old 19th April 2011, 21:41   #44
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@Gansbab - I have one query - Is the saree guard on motorcycles mandated by the government or the engineers at ARAI have come up with the idea? It is painful to look at a Ninja 250 or R15 with a saree guard
This is again a mandatory safety feature (after technical committe discussions, I must admit quite a while before I was at ARAI) considering that most of the pillion riders were thought to be wearing saree which if accidentally caught in-between the wheels (mostly wire wheels) would be dangerous. Ofcourse this wouldn't have been without strong justification backing based on accident survey, as without that manufacturer's wouldn't have agreed on it.

More often than not, legislation doesn't go well with aesthetics. A homologation engineer is a designer's nightmare..
Otherwise we would still be having the Ben-Hur styled chariot inspired wheel designs with pointed hub edges.

However, nothing stops the 2w designers to incorporate an aesthetic saree guard that jells well with the overall design. One example worth quoting is look at what Audi has done to the Daytime Running LED Lamps design, every other manufacturer was complaining about. They have used the legislation's advantage as their style statement.

Gandhar.
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Old 19th April 2011, 22:33   #45
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Originally Posted by Gansbab View Post
Hi Spike Arrestor,

Could you clarify what do you mean funny? epecially wrt to
Head Impact Test, Lighting Installation Test, Wiper stall Test?

Maybe we discuss on that then.
Hi Gandhar,

Head Impact Test- Applicable to M1 and not N1, why??

Wiper stall Test- Can be easily done away / controlled if fiddled.

Lighting Installation- I have seen parts failing in COP but still clearing the Lighting Installation tests

Spike

PS- This is just an e.g. I know many such loopholes.

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 19th April 2011 at 22:47. Reason: add info
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