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Old 24th April 2011, 12:14   #46
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post

@Star are you asking about 2 Fans ( 1 radiator , 1 condenser) or 2 fans for condenser only?

Spike
Spike, one radiator and one condensor. and for 2.6 and 2.2 crde only.
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Old 25th April 2011, 12:03   #47
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover View Post
2 fans only for the AC condensor ? Could you name any other vehicle than the safari please ? Just to enlighten myself.
Just for AC i really don't know of any other vehicle which has 2 electric fans. But ones without engine fan, many vehicles have 2 sets of fans, and in some cases 1 separate for AC and 1 for radiator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
@Ani There is one model which uses 2 fans for the condenser assembly.

@Star are you asking about 2 Fans ( 1 radiator , 1 condenser) or 2 fans for condenser only?

Spike
Very honestly none of us are interested in any guessing games! If you have a solution to the problem please discuss here. I have clearly stated that its an eyewash that is happening out there by saying AC is part of design spec for Thar. Atleast that is what i feel by looking at the great jugaad in the pictures posted.

Let us stop this cat and mouse game and do something to really help the poor souls who spent the money for this thing called Thar!!! Almost every ownership report is crying AC for Thar. Last saturday we had a chance to meet up with another black Thar owner in BLR and he also had the same need.
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Old 25th April 2011, 12:29   #48
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Cool Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Let us stop this cat and mouse game and do something to really help the poor souls who spent the money for this thing called Thar!!! Almost every ownership report is crying AC for Thar. Last saturday we had a chance to meet up with another black Thar owner in BLR and he also had the same need.
Jaggu: I wanted to THANK you in BLACK and WHITE for putting forth what many on the forum want.

A THAR with HT and AC and issues about warranty [warranty claims] if suspension is damaged offroad.

Cheers
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Old 25th April 2011, 13:02   #49
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

the way this thread is progressing it looks like some kind of deadly rocket science - this business of fitting an aircon in a metal box jeep!

I feel that at the very least, considering its positioning as a Lifestyle vehicle and target segment and of course its pricing strategy, the Thar ought to have at least one variant which comes with AC/ Heater or am I asking too much?
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Old 25th April 2011, 14:02   #50
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Angry Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Let us stop this cat and mouse game
Jaggu, what is Cat and mouse here? This:-

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
@Ani There is one model which uses 2 fans for the condenser assembly.
Or this:-

Quote:
@Star are you asking about 2 Fans ( 1 radiator , 1 condenser) or 2 fans for condenser only?
In both sentences, I have asked and clarified something, is this what you call cat and mouse game? I did not mention the model; which uses a dual fan setup as the model is irrelevant here. Just wanted to point that dual fan setup is possible and exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
I have clearly stated that its an eyewash that is happening out there by saying AC is part of design spec for Thar. Atleast that is what i feel by looking at the great jugaad in the pictures posted.
That is your opinion, I don't have to say anything on this.

Quote:
Almost every ownership report is crying AC for Thar.
Why do you think are the AC Kits (approved) being provided?
Quote:
If you have a solution to the problem please discuss here.
Considering this as an equal and open forum, I don't think you have any right to tell me what I must and must not post. I have my own way of asking and answering questions, so as long as I am within the posting etiquette and forum rules you need not raise any objection. When I am wrong tell me openly that I am wrong, I would be more than happy to rectify, otherwise just chill!

Spike

PS- Mods, delete this post and my earlier one if inappropriate.

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 25th April 2011 at 14:08.
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Old 25th April 2011, 14:42   #51
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

@Spike why were you assuming i was referring "only" to your posts? I think you are mistaken with that.

Anyways i very honestly dont see anything good coming out from this so called technical thread, which i had wrongly assumed that it would, while being part of this discussion. Now since you said that you were clarifying doubts, i would request you to be more specific. When people ask you a question, you are looked upon as a rep from M&M as well as a knowledgeable person for this vehicle in general, and expect clear answers.

If you are bound by official secrecy you can just state that, and atleast i would leave it at that. Instead of this (?) to almost all the replies. A reply from a knowledgeable person like would you will end with (.) and not (?). Atleast that is what each one of us lesser folks expects. Maybe we are wrong in our assumptions.

I dont know who is going to reply to my doubts, am asking for the benefit of others who might not have the right question in hand. Am just a member posting with a little bit of knowledge, please guide me if possible. With clear straight answers.

I dont think we need to worry about competition gaining unfair ground by getting this info. Do we?

1) Thar is claimed to be AC ready? Yes - According to M&M with detailed description of install documented here.

2) If so what should be done about the wiring since it is an ECU vehicle? So far no clear reply. Dealer seems to do whatever a normal road side AC mechanic does.

3) The hyderabad dealer installation is M&M prescribed format? Answer not clear since owner has not mentioned anything. M&M also silent about it. So is it OR not?

4) Adding additional fan in the hyderabad installation, is a M&M suggested method? No answer, have to assume its dealer suggestion? But then discussion creep'ed into guess game, which vehicle has 2 fans in India

I have left clear questions for anyone who has any reliable info to reply.

At the end of the day we all look forward to a reliable AC install in Thar, which will work without causing issues like over heating that used to happen in our old XDP's while installed by a road side AC mechanic.

Thats where the buck stops!

Last edited by Jaggu : 25th April 2011 at 14:58. Reason: Small correction and clarification.
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Old 25th April 2011, 15:06   #52
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
@Spike why were you assuming i was referring "only" to your posts? I think you are mistaken with that.
Sirji, I am NOT assuming. You have quoted my post; as simple as that, need more proof? I would still not mind if I'm mistaken.

Quote:
If you are bound by official secrecy you can just state that, and atleast i would leave it at that. Anyways i very honestly dont see anything good coming out from this so called technical thread, which i had wrongly assumed that it would, while being part of this discussion.
Yes I am. Still I try and answer things which do not put me in trouble.

Quote:
Instead of this (?) to almost all the replies. A reply from a knowledgeable person like would you will end with (.) and not (?). Atleast that is what each one of us lesser folks expects. Maybe we are wrong in our assumptions.
Am I not allowed to ask questions? Does that mean all people using (?) are lesser folks? Sorry I do not agree to this.

Jaggu, my current age will be mostly less than or equal to the period for which you guys have been driving automobiles (I am still a novice and learning) . Regarding this AC problem, I hope it gets sorted out in the correct way.

Spike

PS- A sentence must end either with a (.) or a (?), also when in doubt ask; my school teacher taught me this.

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 25th April 2011 at 15:08.
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Old 25th April 2011, 15:47   #53
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Sirji, I am NOT assuming. You have quoted my post; as simple as that, need more proof? I would still not mind if I'm mistaken.
My bad, your quote had replies. And i was referring to the replies which was pointing to a discussion which is getting brick walled Maybe i should have left it without your quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Yes I am. Still I try and answer things which do not put me in trouble.
Always appreciated it and will continue to do the same in future. Unfortunately i somehow am terribly confused, cant make out sometimes, if its a reply or its prompting us to derive an answer due to 'secrecy' clause. Either ways the info is not clear. Then assumptions start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Am I not allowed to ask questions? Does that mean all people using (?) are lesser folks? Sorry I do not agree to this.
When did i say that dear? See i used a (?) also but that was for communicating, rather clarifying a situation. Am not saying you are not doing the same, but yes when it comes to Thar it becomes terribly confusing for me ie your replies? Just kidding with the last (?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Jaggu, my current age will be mostly less than or equal to the period for which you guys have been driving automobiles (I am still a novice and learning) . Regarding this AC problem, I hope it gets sorted out in the correct way.
Spikee you know me little bit to know that i care a two hoot about age, i respect the knowledge that someone brings into a discussion. Be it a 16 year old or a 60 year old. Respect comes out of that and not age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
PS- A sentence must end either with a (.) or a (?), also when in doubt ask; my school teacher taught me this.
Definitely ask questions, its a very good thing. But when you know the answer, why not go directly to answers. I know professional ethics, but then is it such a delicate issue (ref to Thar AC) that secrecy has to be maintained? No this question is not to you Spike, its to M&M.

None of us are professionally trained or equipped like you guys (M&M reps) for issues related to Thar. If we have to do it on our own, using our road side jugaad we can do it and then post the resolution here. The idea was not that. It was very clear that there was an issue which the owners friend was trying to escalate using TeamBHP. Since M&M is actively watching it.

Now i can take a very different stand and start arguing, defending my post. But that is not what i want, i made a small communication mistake by quoting and replying you Spike. But that is totally irrelevant in this discussion. If you & me want, we can continue over PM or chat.


So let us get back into the real discussion and look for some real answers to the questions posted above!

EDIT: Questions below.

Quote:
1) Thar is claimed to be AC ready?

Yes - According to M&M with detailed description of install documented here.

2) If so what should be done about the wiring since it is an ECU vehicle?

So far no clear reply. Dealer seems to do whatever a normal road side AC mechanic does.

3) The hyderabad dealer installation is M&M prescribed format?

Answer not clear since owner has not mentioned anything. M&M also silent about it. So is it OR not?

4) Adding additional fan in the hyderabad installation, is a M&M suggested method?

No answer, have to assume its dealer suggestion? But then discussion creep'ed into guess game, which vehicle has 2 fans in India
So far assumptions atleast proves that ECU does not have any provision to even rig up an AC circuit. So what is the next best option? An independent ON and OFF circuit with additional cooling fans? For this i dont want M&M expertise, though the component details from earlier post is useful to identify the right parts.

no ps and pps.

Last edited by Jaggu : 25th April 2011 at 15:51.
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Old 25th April 2011, 18:23   #54
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post


EDIT: Questions below.



So far assumptions atleast proves that ECU does not have any provision to even rig up an AC circuit. So what is the next best option? An independent ON and OFF circuit with additional cooling fans? For this i dont want M&M expertise, though the component details from earlier post is useful to identify the right parts.

no ps and pps.
@Jaggu: I think:

1. The ECU has no provision to increase idle rpm while ac is ON because the engine is capable of withstanding that additional load which is apparently negligible. I dont see the vehicle performance deteriorating because of this feature or the lack of it.

2. The fan installation is not clear. What I would do is to have a single electric fan in front with the required cfm rating and a single electric fan at the back of the radiator. Having 2 fans at front and making one come on at a particular temperature is fancy stuff and leads to unnecessary loads.

3. Dealer training is what M&M has to improve upon. This area has been addressed before and i'm sure they are aware of the same too.
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Old 25th April 2011, 19:11   #55
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

1) I really dont know Headers, yup the bigger engine should help compensate for the load. But i dont think its the right approach, esp in stop go traffic wont it be one of the reasons contributing to overheating?

2) You mean to say remove the mechanical fan attached to engine and replace it with electric fan. Not sure that will work. I have seen it backfire in gypsies, not the engine but the 2 fan set up.

3) Seriously agree. Such a big established brand has issues with such basic stuff?! Totally unacceptable.

Rise customer Rise! Demand for your rights
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Old 25th April 2011, 19:57   #56
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

^^

1. It will work - No issues if the setup is correct IMO.

2. The 2 fan setup works fine in Chennai Heat - I've had it for many years in my MG413W.
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Old 25th April 2011, 20:46   #57
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

@Karthik, could you please let us how how much you were charged for parts and labour? Also, I'm confused...is it the condenser or the engine that was overheating?? Is the engine temp steady or RISEing. (pun unintended gentlemen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
1. The ECU has no provision to increase idle rpm while ac is ON because the engine is capable of withstanding that additional load which is apparently negligible.
Its not so much increasing rpm but increase fuelling to prevent drop in rpm due to load.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
[b] The condenser as seen in the photograph is not suitable for this application.
@BD sir.
Did your original 'AC fitment BOM' call for 1 fan or 2 fans? Why did the dealer use the wrong compressor? You mentioned in another thread that there is a some kind of 12 page document or something like that regarding AC fitment. Could you share that? or can you confirm that dealers have been provided that. Also I had asked you if these parts are being sold in 'kit' form to prevent mixing up with wrong condensers...

Last edited by Mpower : 25th April 2011 at 21:16.
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Old 25th April 2011, 21:42   #58
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

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Its not so much increasing rpm but increase fuelling to prevent drop in rpm due to load.
Can you please elaborate the difference?

What is the relationship between increase in fueling and increase in RPM? Dont you agree they are linear unless it is a VTEC engine!!
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Old 25th April 2011, 22:08   #59
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
^^

1. It will work - No issues if the setup is correct IMO.

2. The 2 fan setup works fine in Chennai Heat - I've had it for many years in my MG413W.
1) as i said i dont know. But i know its not the right thing

2) Great 413 has thermostat in the system? And its a carbed engine right? ECU gypsy with same set up of AC had heating issue, not at idle or at city traffic but only at 90 kph.

Anyway the point is not what we do outside. Its what M&M does as part of recommended and approved practice.
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Old 25th April 2011, 23:18   #60
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Default Re: Thar A/C - Dealer Fitment, but issues persist.

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Originally Posted by headers View Post
Can you please elaborate the difference?

What is the relationship between increase in fueling and increase in RPM? Dont you agree they are linear unless it is a VTEC engine!!
Vikram, there are two things you can demand from the engine. torque and rpm. some applications don't care or doesn't want to affect engine speed in which they only demand the torque to sustain their load. some applications demand rpm or minimum rpm.
for eg: few vehicles idle at 650rpm. when AC compressor runs, it will demand a minimum rpm of 850. on the other hand if 850 is the idle rpm, then compressor would just demand the torque to sustain its load. low idle governor can take the additional load of the compressor, but there will be fluctuation in the rpm. to avoid this, ECM should know in advance that a sudden load is expected and it should also prepare air system in advance to compensate for the extra load. this is just one thing, but there are several things that are considered in order to remove this extra load in critical situations. its a safety concern again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
Also, I'm confused...is it the condenser or the engine that was overheating??
My point is what could be the root cause for overheating. when a scorpio cannot overheat irrespective of load and environment conditions and inspite of producing more power. the same cooling system can't maintain the temperature of a lesser capacity engine which produce lesser power.
THAR engine sounds very rough compared to scorpio engine.

Providing an extra fan for the condenser is a workaround and NOT a solution.
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