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Old 22nd March 2006, 18:41   #31
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Originally Posted by goldie_malhotra
Zen-D and Palio-D were not great cars in themselves - one was underpowered and the other too bulky - could never compete with the Indica in any way.

However, the Xeta might suffer on accounts of lower FE than the alto, and the fact that base models of Santro are placed right alongside it ...
Palio-D is an execellent car for its size and price! Even far better than some C-Segment cars like Ford Ikon D, Esteem D etc. 1.9 Engine deilvers immense power & torque and makes driving a pleasure. Indica D is not worth comparing Palio D.
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Old 22nd March 2006, 18:43   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldie_malhotra
Zen-D and Palio-D were not great cars in themselves - one was underpowered and the other too bulky - could never compete with the Indica in any way.

However, the Xeta might suffer on accounts of lower FE than the alto, and the fact that base models of Santro are placed right alongside it ...
Even the Indica is underpowered in its diesel avatar. But the reason it is so successful is that it is [a] extremely practical, [b] it makes an enormous economic sense for the cost one pays vis-a-vis the size. Both the Zen-D and Palio-D looked highly overpriced in comparison.

Xeta may do the exact same. And although the Alto offers better economy I look at it from a different perspective. It meets the aspiration values. There are people who do not mind a lesser FE than an alto and hence a Santro or WagonR is ok to them. However they won't/can't shell out 3.5-4L for that. They will find that Xeta at 2.95L with most of the standard features is exceptional VFM product.

Again there could be others who are willing to buy a top end Alto because it costs less and yet gives them features like PS (ok only PS!). They will find that at 2.95L they are getting a beeeg car (to steal a line from Maruti) with PS, beige interiors, color-coded bumpers etc and yet paying less than Alto. Even they may find Xeta too attractive even at the cost of a little less FE (Ask Rajdoll... this phenomenon happened with his friend).
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Old 22nd March 2006, 18:51   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finneyp
Palio-D is an execellent car for its size and price! Even far better than some C-Segment cars like Ford Ikon D, Esteem D etc. 1.9 Engine deilvers immense power & torque and makes driving a pleasure. Indica D is not worth comparing Palio D.
And yet it got killed, more or less!

IMHO, the fact my dear friend is that it made not much of a practical sense to common people, the buyers. At its price people felt they could by a "sedan"... comparatively this was only a hatch. Again in terms of FE it was no great shakes for a hatch... Actually to common buyers it appeared to be a neither here nor there kind of car. Technologically speaking it just sported a "regular NA engine". All this caused it to loose the fight.

Palio petrol versions are great, no doubt about it. The 1.6 is amazing... but the diesel?!!! Uhuh... I think it could not find its stepping stone.
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Old 22nd March 2006, 18:53   #34
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Originally Posted by Steeroid
I wonder if somebody can clarify whether this is indeed some sort of Euro standard and what the reason for it is....my Smart comes with just ONE reverse lamp too
Euro standard
http://unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs41-60.html

Indian standard
http://morth.nic.in/mvlrule/rule5_105.pdf
point 7 on page 3.

The minimum requirement is one reverse lamp.
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Old 22nd March 2006, 18:58   #35
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Originally Posted by Zappo
Palio petrol versions are great, no doubt about it. The 1.6 is amazing... but the diesel?!!! Uhuh... I think it could not find its stepping stone.
Zappo bhai, I can tell you Palio D is a Torque paradise. The power may not be much, but the way it is delivered, and the torquey engine makes city driving effortless. Infact, i found NV to be more sluggish in city compared to Palio D. I just wonder what a beautiful machine would be Palio with Turbo Diesel..
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Old 22nd March 2006, 19:30   #36
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Originally Posted by dceite
Zappo bhai, I can tell you Palio D is a Torque paradise. The power may not be much, but the way it is delivered, and the torquey engine makes city driving effortless. Infact, i found NV to be more sluggish in city compared to Palio D. I just wonder what a beautiful machine would be Palio with Turbo Diesel..
Exactly, my point. But then the fact is what will be the stepping stone of a diesel car? At least in India? The 1st parameter that people will look for is the FE, the second is its price. Palio-D failed both the tests for its segment. An enthusiast who buys a car bcoz he loves to rip it won't buy a diesel in the 1st place. He will be a rank petrolhead... and thats where Plaio 1.6/gtx wins. For a diesel car an "enthusiasts' special" feature is a good-to-have kind of thing. But people won't mind if it fails this criteria but delivers on all other fronts. Which became Indica-D's winning point... it proved to be everything. But it was underpowered/sluggish. People have always known this... complained and cribbed about it... and yet kept buying it.

So the fact is to be successful (==make economic sense for the manufacturer) it has to cut the ice with the general car buying public and not only the enthusiasts.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 09:56   #37
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Add the Zen Classic to that list of single reverse lamp cars. And it looks like the NHC ZX (VTEC) has only one reverse lamp - can any ZX owner please confirm this?
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Old 23rd March 2006, 10:05   #38
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Originally Posted by hrag
Add the Zen Classic to that list of single reverse lamp cars. And it looks like the NHC ZX (VTEC) has only one reverse lamp - can any ZX owner please confirm this?
OT - yes, it has - the other is a rear fog lamp ...
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Old 23rd March 2006, 10:09   #39
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Originally Posted by Zappo
Again there could be others who are willing to buy a top end Alto because it costs less and yet gives them features like PS (ok only PS!). They will find that at 2.95L they are getting a beeeg car (to steal a line from Maruti) with PS, beige interiors, color-coded bumpers etc and yet paying less than Alto. Even they may find Xeta too attractive even at the cost of a little less FE (Ask Rajdoll... this phenomenon happened with his friend).
I absolutly second you on that. General public want to go for complete car which offers bit of everything at very affordable price and Xeta is providing exactly that after the price cut. So it has become very difficult for people to avoid the Petrol Indica(Xeta) while selection process, atleast they are visiting the Tata Showrooms to have a look at it. And once they see it (the space,interiors, paint job, size, sturdy build, interiors) after seeing Alto, they are finding it very difficult to buy any other car at that price. Same happened with my fried, he had decided to buy Alto, I just suggested him to atleast give a Dekho to Xeta, and he just fell for it.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 10:12   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finneyp
Palio-D is an execellent car for its size and price! Even far better than some C-Segment cars like Ford Ikon D, Esteem D etc. 1.9 Engine deilvers immense power & torque and makes driving a pleasure. Indica D is not worth comparing Palio D.
Excuse my bad choice of words - underpowered was meant for the Zen-D only.
When I said "bulky", I meant that the engine was too large (1.9 litres for a hatch !! - the Octy has one that size) to give any decent FE (alongwith the added bulk of the car).
This would be a definite no-no for most people looking for a diesel car.

But if Fiat had introduced the 1.3 TDi engine for the Palio D, things might have been a bit different. But then Fiat's A/S/S would have scared of most of the mainstay of the Indica D - the taxicab guys, away.

OT - And while we are at it - its better that those taxicab guys dont get more power to play with, they create enough havoc with the little they have.

Last edited by goldie_malhotra : 23rd March 2006 at 10:15.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 10:22   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldie_malhotra
Excuse my bad choice of words - underpowered was meant for the Zen-D only.
Have you driven the Zen hatch??? Its quite zippy. The 1.5 TUD5 makes as much power as the Indica's 1.4 and the car is much lighter. The Zen D was nose heavy and had no space in the bonnet, but it was quite a zippy little diesel.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 10:55   #42
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Originally Posted by Steeroid
Have you driven the Zen hatch??? Its quite zippy. The 1.5 TUD5 makes as much power as the Indica's 1.4 and the car is much lighter. The Zen D was nose heavy and had no space in the bonnet, but it was quite a zippy little diesel.
Yes, I did - twice - and I did not find it quite zippy, especially when loaded with 4 adults, more like grunting to gain speed and tough to drive in the city traffic - something I havent observed with the Indica - it drives the same, whether loaded or not.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 10:56   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldie_malhotra
Yes, I did - twice - and I did not find it quite zippy, especially when loaded with 4 adults, more like grunting to gain speed and tough to drive in the city traffic - something I havent observed with the Indica - it drives the same, whether loaded or not.
Okay, I drove it alone. Perhaps that was the difference, but should that really make that much of a difference?

The TUD5 needs to be revved to go.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 11:02   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
The TUD5 needs to be revved to go.
Hmmm ... perhaps i didnt push it too hard ...

And yes, 4 adults made a load of difference - esp if you saw my friends
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Old 23rd March 2006, 15:33   #45
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Originally Posted by Zappo
Whoa!!! All of a sudden we are having an influx of Xeta in our forums. Good for us all... now we will get some real feedback.

Congrats nonetheless buddies... I am sure you won't be unhappy with the immense value that Indica carries. Nice buy mate.

@hrag: believe me, the diesel shift is nothing like what people speak about. I know as I have two of them in the family. The earlier one was a bit more inane in terms of feedback (feels like you are moving a stick in the mud... but never difficult to shift) but the newer one ("refreshing series, BS-III) has a shift that seems to let you know every time it slots in and yet moves effortlessly between the gates. So they have definitely improved across both petrol and diesel
i second that bit on the gear shift. I had experienced the shift of the older indicas/indigos. the one on my indica tcic is definitely better. slots perfectly. haven't had a single misclutch. but the clutch itself could be freed up a bit more.
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