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Old 26th July 2011, 17:34   #76
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
I dont know what the right figures are, but they do not in any "fathomable" way add up to 7.5 lakhs
Just out of curiosity how have you deduced that all the components don't add up to 7.5 lacs? considering you now acknowledge you don't know the figures?
Quote:
cobbled together 4x4 system
Wow !! so a BMW 5 series and 7 are not cobbled together when the same engine does duty in both with a engine remap and customers pay a hefty premium on the 7?

or

What does platform sharing between Audi, VW and Porsche mean to you if their respective SUV's are not cobbled together?

or

When VW makes a Seat and a Skoda and a VW with shared components that's not a cobbled together car for you?

SO !! when a Mahindra does it this becomes a cobbled together 4x4?

I'm afraid you don't seem to be aware that manufacturers across the planet are busy "cobbling together" models to lighten your pocket. This is the way ahead for the industry and in a few decades all you will have is maybe five automotive "cobblers" dishing out thirty brands !!

The Mercedes Chrysler marriage was basically a gigantic excercise in "cobbler's itch". Its another story that they couldn't see where one could cobble into another !!

BTW your biggest cobble story is the Fortuner/Innova/Hilux trio. Do you now also believe that the Fortuner is a rip off at 24 lacs? when the Innova which shares so much with it is at 15?

I personally don't think the Fortuner is a rip off and if I could afford it I would buy one anyday and consider it a VFM SUV !! because in my opinion it really is so considering its cousins are beyond 50 lacs topping it to 100 lacs.

Quote:
So, just purely based on the argument that one's alternatives are Mayapuri/roadside mech., the Thar is great VFM? Sure.
No you missed the whole point. You design a car fresh from the drawing board today like the Thar and give consumers a brand new 2.5 litre CRDi engine based 4x4 you won't be able to do it less than 15 lakhs (maybe 20?) unless ofcourse you "cobble together" a car like what Mahindra did using parts from the Scorpio and Bolero family of cars.

Quote:
Most world renowned companies like MB, Honda, Toyota, made their name by letting their product speak for themselves.
True and what makes you think that Mahindra or Tata's aren't? You seriously believe that these Indian companies can withstand competition if they were as hollow as you claim them to be in competence? Greed doesn't ensure market share and growth. Competence and delivering to customer demand does.

Today the demand for 4x4 leisure vehicles is miniscule and yet for the little demand there is the Thar fills in very well. The car will carve its own reputation and identity of its own.

Quote:
it should only be fair to entertain some other realities that truly reflect the vehicle for what it is: A factory made Mayapuri Jeep!
My suggestion: Take a freshly restored 540/550 from Mayapuri, test drive it to your heart's content, then go to a showroom and test drive a Thar. Then come back and announce if you still believe a Thar is a factory made Mayapuri Jeep.

Last edited by DKG : 26th July 2011 at 17:41.
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Old 26th July 2011, 20:15   #77
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Just out of curiosity how have you deduced that all the components don't add up to 7.5 lacs? considering you now acknowledge you don't know the figures?
Because if it did, there's no way Mahindra sold you one for that price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post

Wow !! so a BMW 5 series and 7 are not cobbled together when the same engine does duty in both with a engine remap and customers pay a hefty premium on the 7?

or

What does platform sharing between Audi, VW and Porsche mean to you if their respective SUV's are not cobbled together?

or

When VW makes a Seat and a Skoda and a VW with shared components that's not a cobbled together car for you?

SO !! when a Mahindra does it this becomes a cobbled together 4x4?
Personally, I think it's automotive blasphemy to talk about such cars in a Thar thread, but what the heck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I'm afraid you don't seem to be aware that manufacturers across the planet are busy "cobbling together" models to lighten your pocket. This is the way ahead for the industry and in a few decades all you will have is maybe five automotive "cobblers" dishing out thirty brands !!

BTW your biggest cobble story is the Fortuner/Innova/Hilux trio. Do you now also believe that the Fortuner is a rip off at 24 lacs? when the Innova which shares so much with it is at 15?
FYI, platform sharing and parts bin engineering has been going on much longer than the examples you quoted, and is not something new. I would hardly call the IMV platform the biggest story. But let's use it as an example, because BMW and VW just does not deserve to be denigrated to being compared by M&M.

Platform sharing and parts bin engineering is a well accepted and successful program done by several manufacturers. But the end result of each of these programs is a vehicle that is capable on it's own. They do not use that as an excuse to cover weakness. Even though the Innova and Hilux shares same platform, the Hilux has been individually tailored for it's use. Take for example, the rear tow hook. Innova does not need/have a rear tow hook. But the Hilux has one. The rear end that Thar borrowed does not have a tow hook. Was it engineered to have one in the Thar? Does a real Jeep not have a tow hook? Difference between engineering and cobbling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I personally don't think the Fortuner is a rip off and if I could afford it I would buy one anyday and consider it a VFM SUV !! because in my opinion it really is so considering its cousins are beyond 50 lacs topping it to 100 lacs.
It's a well known fact that the Fortuner has been criticized for having similar interiors to the Innova and therefore not considered VFM by many. Toyota is responding to this and trying to distinguish Fortuner from Innova.
The steering offset from eons ago, or as M&M would like to say now, from the Bolero continues with the Thar. Criticism of such is not entertained. Difference between engineering and cobbling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post

No you missed the whole point. You design a car fresh from the drawing board today like the Thar and give consumers a brand new 2.5 litre CRDi engine based 4x4 you won't be able to do it less than 15 lakhs (maybe 20?) unless ofcourse you "cobble together" a car like what Mahindra did using parts from the Scorpio and Bolero family of cars.
Not that it will happen, but who is asking for a fresh design? Since none of that has happened, what warrants the asking price of Rs.7 lakhs? Please dont give the sum of all parts argument again because it just doesnt hold any water in my eyes. If there was any truth in that theory the manufacturing industry would not exist.

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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
True and what makes you think that Mahindra or Tata's aren't? You seriously believe that these Indian companies can withstand competition if they were as hollow as you claim them to be in competence? Greed doesn't ensure market share and growth. Competence and delivering to customer demand does.
I am a very patriotic guy myself, but my pride remains with the Indian buyer, who deserves better products, and not the manufacturers, who have been very disappointing to say the least.
I am sorry to say, but yes, I do think that Mahindra is a very hollow and greedy company. Market share and growth in India by Mahindra is purely by sheer Middle class volume and favourable government policies. If you try to convince me that it is because of innovation or engineering or any quality related to automotive greatness, you would be wasting your time.

Take for example the Great Scorpio. Retails for roughly same price as an Innova. (Yes, yes, slightly lower, I know). A big portion of Innova's cost is going for import taxes. How much of Scorpio's? Yeah, that much.
How many iterations and versions did it take to make a decent (safe) handling vehicle? Is it still a decent (safe) handling vehicle? I still recall the older generation Scorpios being used in B grade regional movies with the goondas chasing, and a mere flick of the steering wheel would make the vehicle literally jump from side to side. Funny? yeah. Well engineered? No.

I'm sure there was a poor handling Innova at one time too, but that must have been in pre production, because Toyota would not be caught dead putting their name on something like that and selling it to people.

M&M is lucky the Govt does not enforce the Lemon law or hold them responsible in any manner for putting unsafe vehicles on the road, and using the customers as guinea pigs to fund their development cost.

What's that you say? Toyota has so much more money for development? Well, if Mahindra spent money on vehicle development, instead of using moneys got from selling crap to buy software companies, I might have had an iota of respect. But yeah, it's corporate policy, blah, blah. Comes back to my earlier post of engineering greatness vs Richest list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Today the demand for 4x4 leisure vehicles is miniscule and yet for the little demand there is the Thar fills in very well. The car will carve its own reputation and identity of its own.
With vehicles like the Thar the only option, yes, it will remain miniscule. Usually with lifestyle vehicles, an availability of options is what increases demand. And from the looks of it, an oath of loyalty in blood to Mahindra is pre requisite to join. So, hopefully will remain small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
My suggestion: Take a freshly restored 540/550 from Mayapuri, test drive it to your heart's content, then go to a showroom and test drive a Thar. Then come back and announce if you still believe a Thar is a factory made Mayapuri Jeep.
Do I really need to compare with Mayapuri? You guys seem to be doing it plenty. I see it as a vehicle alone, and as such, it sucks.

Cheers
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Old 26th July 2011, 23:08   #78
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Thar as a Daily Driver
What I don't like:
a blindspot which can gobble up an entire car !!
Dear DKG

Can you elaborate more on this blind spot. Where is this ? Are the outside rear view mirrors not sufficient ?

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Old 26th July 2011, 23:33   #79
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

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Originally Posted by carrot_eater View Post
Can you elaborate more on this blind spot. Where is this ? Are the outside rear view mirrors not sufficient ?
If a car is in a zone which is your left rear three quarter area it kind of disappears. But if you set the mirrors to reflect the body side of the Thar then you can spot it. But it takes a little getting used to. In heavy traffic the rear soft top panels do block a lot of your vision. I am sure with a little getting used to it I will get more comfortable with spotting cars in that zone

@gthang - have you test driven a Thar? If you have driven one and concluded that its trash dished out by a greedy company I respect your opinion and have nothing further to add.

But if you haven't driven one and have come to all these conclusions then -

BTW next time you see a new 5 series inspect the paintwork closely, you'll see more orange peel than a real orange on many panels.

Ironically just this evening I sat in a brand new G55 and it was creaking !! Yes the esteemed MB was creaking like a Mayapuri 550 and the car costs 1.4 crores !!
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Old 27th July 2011, 00:43   #80
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post

@gthang - have you test driven a Thar? If you have driven one and concluded that its trash dished out by a greedy company I respect your opinion and have nothing further to add.

But if you haven't driven one and have come to all these conclusions then -
As though test driving a Thar is an easy affair. Guess you havent heard of the wonderful practices the great Indian company does when it comes to test drives.
Somehow I doubt if I test drive the Thar, all the rattling will stop, a lockable storage box will appear, functional HVAC will also magically appear, a working tow hook, etc, etc. I'm sure the dynamics of the vehicle is just fine, as fine as a stripped down Scorpio can get, I guess. Not something I am wetting my pants to get into anyways.

Anyways, I like your logic. If for some reason,I happened to be handicapped, and cannot drive a vehicle, I should not have an opinion about it, and my opinions will be considered . Did not know this was a drivers only forum. My apologies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
BTW next time you see a new 5 series inspect the paintwork closely, you'll see more orange peel than a real orange on many panels.

Ironically just this evening I sat in a brand new G55 and it was creaking !! Yes the esteemed MB was creaking like a Mayapuri 550 and the car costs 1.4 crores !!
Excellent conclusions. I saw a 5 series with bad paint, and a G55 that creaks. Therefore all 5 series all crap, and G55 is no better than mayapuri jeep. Nice. All other accolades be damned.

Well, it's been fun. Another Thar discussion gone the same way. No discussions entertained till you drive or buy one yourself. So much for automotive discussion forums.

Cheers.
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Old 27th July 2011, 10:04   #81
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Somehow I doubt if I test drive the Thar, all the rattling will stop
The Thar CRDe has no rattles. There will be some soft ruffling sound on account of softtop and frames but its hardly a rattle.

Quote:
a lockable storage box will appear
has one under the passenger seat

Quote:
functional HVAC will also magically appear
hopefully by summer

Quote:
a working tow hook
If this is a must I am sure under the guidance of BD and Spike a solution can be found. When you look at the chassis its evident they have cut a section out of a longer chassis to use for the Thar and hence the rear cross beam is missing which traditionally gave a solid support to a trailer hitch. I am pretty sure a mod can be carried out to fix this issue should you desire to have a trailer hitch.

Quote:
If for some reason,I happened to be handicapped, and cannot drive a vehicle, I should not have an opinion about it and my opinions will be considered .
Without driving a vehicle assessing it and its mfg is like someone writing off a dish, its cook, and a restaurant without ever dining there or eating the preparation !

And yes in light of your never having driven a Thar you just rendered your entire perspective on the issue "in-credible"

Quote:
Did not know this was a drivers only forum. My apologies.
Now that's not fair. You know TBHp is an open forum where anyone with an interest in cars participates.

Quote:

Therefore all 5 series all crap
Yes sir they are all crap when it comes to the paintwork. And I have shown the orange peel to too many people on too many cars to say this with confidence. But I also happen to consider the 5 series the finest sedan on the planet so to me its not a big issue. I don't write off a car because its paintwork is pathetic unlike you who just wrote off the Thar because its plastics are substandard or it was put together from parts from the Scorpio/Bolero family

And its not just BMW, I have many a time pointed out the poor paintwork on Hondas too. Its all about factory assembly line paintwork that simply doesn't allow a company to fuss over paint finishes and get a perfect finish. So what comes out is flawed and needs a lot of hand finishing to correct it.

The best joke now in restoration is when restoring a car people are saying finished with "authentic orange peel factory finish"

Quote:
No discussions entertained till you drive or buy one yourself. So much for automotive discussion forums.
For the past three weeks I am using a Thar daily. I also clean the car myself so I get to observe it very closely. Based on my experience of the car I am forming an opinion about it.

You on the other hand have arrived at some strong conclusions/opinions purely through inference and mostly conjecture.

You seriously think we can have a meaningful discussion? I think not, and the reason is very obvious to me !
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Old 27th July 2011, 10:41   #82
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

Suspension and Steering

The handling, comfort and driving pleasure derived from a car mainly stems from the way its suspension and steering have been setup and the kind of rigidity its chassis affords. Coupled with weight distribution and centre of gravity dynamics a good suspension and steering setup makes a world of difference in your enjoyment of a car.

Having used the Thar for the past three weeks as a offroader being driven onroad I was delighted to find the ride most enjoyable.

The Thar drives quite like a car and like many of the SUV's you encounter. Its such a far departure from the handling dynamics of an old Jeep that you simply cannot compare the two

It feels planted on the road and soaks up minor undulations and road roughness very well. The radials too play a role in damping out road roughness very well.

However beyond a point its the body that lets down the overall shock absorption as it audibly cries out if you hit a deep pot hole or rut.

Needless to say one has to drive a high GC vehicle with care and not fling it around bends like a hatch back. On a sharp turn you do encounter body roll as expected on a tall car but overall the suspension is taut and body roll is not pronounced to the point of making the car feel unsafe.

The steering on the car is very well weighted. Its neither too light to intrude into your driving style nor too heavy to draw your attention to needing more assist. Feedback is reasonable for a SUV style tyre and suspension setup and you can maintain directional control effortlessly and with confidence.

I haven't driven the Thar beyond 100 so I cannot comment yet on how the suspension and steering behave at upper limits but for most part I like the feel of the Thar at speeds upto 100 kmph.

I am not very sure if its on account of scuttle shake or chassis flex (BD or Spike can clarify) but on rough roads you do encounter the steering wheel and column to shake. This came as a surprise as you don't expect that on any car but its clearly a quirk of the Thar. It would be nice if they can engineer that shake out as it would make the ride feel more solid. That slight jiggle on a rough patch is a slight turn off when you are driving.

Overall the suspension and steering are very well setup for onroad driving. All my impressions so far are based on onroad use. I see that the engineers have succeeded in balancing this out so well that the Thar feels secure and planted on the road and offers driver and passenger (don't know about rear comfort) enough comfort to enable thousands of kms of road travel without much strain.

Its a joy to drive and am actually having fun driving the car in town.

Last edited by DKG : 27th July 2011 at 10:45.
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Old 27th July 2011, 10:52   #83
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

Suggestion : Can you two quit. There is no winner or loser. Opinions expressed and read. We agree not to agree. That sort of thing.

Let's - me atleast - enjoy more about Thars capabilities or other wise.

DKG: Is that shake similar to body shake or death rattle on jeeps? May be other jeep owners could answer but on a new vehicle this is alarming.

Last edited by sudev : 27th July 2011 at 10:57.
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Old 27th July 2011, 11:03   #84
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I am not very sure if its on account of scuttle shake or chassis flex (BD or Spike can clarify) but on rough roads you do encounter the steering wheel and column to shake.
I presume it is the Steering jiggle (sidewise). If yes, solution is available. It is not because of chassis flex. 30 min job.

EDIT- DKG has partly answered the problem (below).

Spike

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 27th July 2011 at 11:08. Reason: see edit
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Old 27th July 2011, 11:06   #85
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

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Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Can you two quit
Will ensure it

Quote:
Is that shake similar to body shake or death rattle on jeeps?
No its not the death wobble of Jeeps which is a deadly resonance that sets in through the wheels.

This is a jiggle you feel at the steering. Possibly either because the chassis flexes on a rough patch and since the steering column is tethered to the body you feel the chassis flexing along with the steering box

OR

The scuttle of the body shakes as its all not very rigid (this seems more likely but I could be wrong)
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Old 27th July 2011, 11:08   #86
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
I presume it is the Steering jiggle (sidewise). If yes, solution is available. It is not because of chassis flex. 30 min job.
I knew you'd have the right answer. Yes Spike its a sidewise steering jiggle and glad to know its not the chassis. So what is the solution?

Edit: Tighten the body bolts?

Last edited by DKG : 27th July 2011 at 11:09.
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:13   #87
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

Hi,

Some questions on the modds that can be done on the Thar.

Disclaimer: I am a newbie when it comes to 4x4 and some (all) of my questions might be stupid. Pls bear with me and if they are answered elsewere, pls point me to the right direction.

This said - back to the questions

1. Is is possible to have diff lock (both front and rear) for Thar? Are they available OEM? Or elsewhere?
2. Is is worthwhile to install a tuning box? It has been said that tuning boxes inc performance and FE by some 10~15%?
3. On articulation - to me it looks like - the issue is in the space available for tyre movement. So can we downsize on tyres (given that a lift is not recommended due to handling on tarmac issues) with appropriate "strengthening" of the suspension (?) or more robust shocks - so that the vehicle stance is not changed with smaller tyres but it provides good space for tyre movement?
Is this doable? what will it do to the handling/performance/safety, etc? (I know this sounds stupid with people wanting to upsize and i am talking about downsizing. Still wanted to ask)
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:38   #88
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

DKG: Thanks for your elaborate writeup. Glad you enjoy the orange peel

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Suspension and Steering

I am not very sure if its on account of scuttle shake or chassis flex (BD or Spike can clarify) but on rough roads you do encounter the steering wheel and column to shake. This came as a surprise as you don't expect that on any car but its clearly a quirk of the Thar. It would be nice if they can engineer that shake out as it would make the ride feel more solid. That slight jiggle on a rough patch is a slight turn off when you are driving.
THAT IMO is a result of IFS and R&P PS.

Can you try a slalom test on the THAR and tell us your experience?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sach.sri View Post
1. Is is possible to have diff lock (both front and rear) for Thar? Are they available OEM? Or elsewhere?
2. Is is worthwhile to install a tuning box? It has been said that tuning boxes inc performance and FE by some 10~15%?
3. On articulation - to me it looks like - the issue is in the space available for tyre movement. So can we downsize on tyres (given that a lift is not recommended due to handling on tarmac issues) with appropriate "strengthening" of the suspension (?) or more robust shocks - so that the vehicle stance is not changed with smaller tyres but it provides good space for tyre movement?
Is this doable? what will it do to the handling/performance/safety, etc? (I know this sounds stupid with people wanting to upsize and i am talking about downsizing. Still wanted to ask)

Answers IMO:
1. NO factory stuff but the market is booming
2. Contact RD
3. The suspension is a compromise between onroad high speed handling and offroad slow speed driving - Hence it is a COMPROMISE only. Better not touch it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I knew you'd have the right answer. Yes Spike its a sidewise steering jiggle and glad to know its not the chassis. So what is the solution?

Edit: Tighten the body bolts?
No no no - I dont want to buy a 8L vehicle and tighten the bolts like I do for my daughters cycle!!!!
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:52   #89
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

Quote:
Answers IMO:
1. NO factory stuff but the market is booming
2. Contact RD
3. The suspension is a compromise between onroad high speed handling and offroad slow speed driving - Hence it is a COMPROMISE only. Better not touch it.
headers - thanks.
on #3 i wanted some more discussion

I understand that it is a give and take - but i would like to understand what i am giving Vs what i am getting if i go this route.

Like i said - i am no expert, so will appreciate some more details on this query

3. On articulation - to me it looks like - the issue is in the space available for tyre movement. So can we downsize on tyres (given that a lift is not recommended due to handling on tarmac issues) with appropriate "strengthening" of the suspension (?) or more robust shocks - so that the vehicle stance is not changed with smaller tyres but it provides good space for tyre movement?
Is this doable? what will it do to the handling/performance/safety, etc? (I know this sounds stupid with people wanting to upsize and i am talking about downsizing. Still wanted to ask)

Thanks.
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:59   #90
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar: How I made sure I didn't lose the forest for the trees !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sach.sri View Post
1. Is is possible to have diff lock (both front and rear) for Thar? Are they available OEM? Or elsewhere?
I understand there is, I think for the rear differential only.

Quote:
2. Is is worthwhile to install a tuning box? It has been said that tuning boxes inc performance and FE by some 10~15%?
Obviously the engine can be tweaked for more performance. However, stock the engine is a bomb I doubt if I would ever need more power.

Quote:
3. On articulation...So can we downsize on tyres
On the stock tyres your wheel travel is not limited on account of tyre size, so you will have no impact on articulation with smaller tyres.

Last edited by DKG : 27th July 2011 at 13:01.
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