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Old 25th August 2011, 10:10   #76
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Default Re: Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)

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Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
Please read my post below about running in period for the Cruze engine. Yes the service guys will tell you that Cruze needs no running in but take it from me the running in for the Cruze goes on for atleast 17000km. I do not mean to say you have to pussy foot for 17000km. Maintaining a rpm below 2500 is a must up to the first oil change though which is more than sufficient for Indian highways. Frequent oil check up is also a must. Never let it go below the half way mark.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...ml#post2303964 (More power from the Cruze: 466Nm torque.)
Thanks for the info Dr. Pullockaran. Got my car yesterday and took it on my usual 120 km commute to Ranipet this morning on the Chennai Bangalore highway. Will keep an eye on the oil levels and also try to keep a lighter foot on the gas. Since I don't want to hijack Poitive's thread. I'll continue this discussion on the ownership thead I'll start this weekend. Thanks again!
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Old 25th August 2011, 15:46   #77
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Default Re: Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)

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Originally Posted by charthom View Post
Poitive,

Thanks for the kind words,Mate.Glad you liked my logic.

Regarding your intention to post b/w pictures-it is an interesting idea.

But remember this is an automobile forum-people may expect specific information ,not really artistic/poetic ones. Hence I suggest you post proper colour photos-not keeping people guessing too much. Too much of anything is a put off,you will agree with me.

Have I offended you? Sorry,Mate-appreciate my intentions.

charthom.
Not offended at all, mate. And I do appreciate your intention. The reason why I got to b/w pics was that it looked a whole lot better in b/w. So will let it be a b/w series to start with and then follow it up with some colour ones. It is a lot more visually appealing. Automotive forums are about appeal as well. Hope you'll agree

BTW, there has been some progress on the pictures. The VVS is playing hard to get, but I'll find a way around!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrome6Boy View Post
Thanks for the info Dr. Pullockaran. Got my car yesterday and took it on my usual 120 km commute to Ranipet this morning on the Chennai Bangalore highway. Will keep an eye on the oil levels and also try to keep a lighter foot on the gas. Since I don't want to hijack Poitive's thread. I'll continue this discussion on the ownership thead I'll start this weekend. Thanks again!
Mate, since both the cars share the same engine, it should not be considered off topic. Doc seems to have done some research and if Doc is happy to share, we are happy to listen and discuss it right here

Chrome and Doc, please feel free to take this discussion further, right here.
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Old 25th August 2011, 16:42   #78
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Default Re: Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)

POitive congrats on the purchase.

i found 5 pages full of words crammed in (i guess this ownership report is the most exhaustive) but with one (!!) pic only. please add some more to avoid flagging interest.
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Old 25th August 2011, 17:05   #79
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Default Re: Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)

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Originally Posted by e46 View Post
POitive congrats on the purchase.

i found 5 pages full of words crammed in (i guess this ownership report is the most exhaustive) but with one (!!) pic only. please add some more to avoid flagging interest.
Thanks e46! For the wishes and the tip.

Pictures on this thread

The way I was seeing it was that there isn't anything too different about this particular example of the Magnum LS, hence didn't give it too much priority to start with.

Observations, experiences, thoughts about the car would not be as standardized, hence was focusing on that.

Later, after some thoughts and interest expressed by members (eg Charthom's, Prabhu's) I took it more seriously.

Just for the record - I haven't taken out the time for ANY accessory (not even half descent functional floor mats), but have tried to take pics for the forum. I just tried to express the experience in a humorous way. I was very disappointed for not being able to take proper pics (just before the picture post).

But as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Am working on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
BTW, there has been some progress on the pictures. The VVS is playing hard to get, but I'll find a way around!
Hope to be getting up some pics, bit by bit. Very soon.
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Old 25th August 2011, 17:30   #80
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Default Re: Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
Mate, since both the cars share the same engine, it should not be considered off topic. Doc seems to have done some research and if Doc is happy to share, we are happy to listen and discuss it right here

Chrome and Doc, please feel free to take this discussion further, right here.
When I saw Doc's post I was extremely apprehensive. I knew right then and there I couldn't control myself for any period longer than 1000 kms. I personally agree that the Cruze has plenty of power on tap and we can afford to stay below 3K rpm and still enjoy oodles of power. But I bought this car mainly because of its power and I want to enjoy all the acceleration it has to offer as soon as possible without doing any long term damage. I'm not talking about constantly red lining in every gear, but occasionally going to 4K rpm just for fun.

I'm going to take it easy for the first 1000 kms and check the oil levels. I'm sure Doc know his car inside out especially since he's owned his car right from launch. But I hop Chevy has tweaked their cars since then and fixed this oil leakage / burning problem.

On a side note have you guys seen this link posted earlier on another thread? Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

I was tempted by the above link, but decided to run my car in the more traditional way.
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Old 25th August 2011, 17:47   #81
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Default Re: Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)

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Originally Posted by Chrome6Boy View Post
On a side note have you guys seen this link posted earlier on another thread? Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

I was tempted by the above link, but decided to run my car in the more traditional way.

I read that, and followed it with my pulsar 150. never got mileage over 35kmpl whatever i did or how smooth it was driven and made a uncomfortable sound. Finally at 30k the asc told me the bore and some valve damage is present. Change the bore and piston kit and i get 43+ and is much nicer to hear. i'm still running it in after 3k kms.

That piece has to do with a race car, where nothing else matters but winning. All parts of the vehicle are used once for the race and replaced. I'm sure 99.9999% of the population in india do not need to read that.
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Old 25th August 2011, 17:49   #82
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Default Re: Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrome6Boy View Post
I'm not talking about constantly red lining in every gear, but occasionally going to 4K rpm just for fun.
Torque curve details aren't easily available. Haven't pushed mine as much yet. But after a 'certain RPM' the torque would anyway start to dip and you would get more juice from the car in next higher gear. I understand getting most juice (performance) out of the car, but have never really got the point in redlining. My guess is that about the 'certain RPM' would be under 3500 RPM in this one.

Quote:
I'm going to take it easy for the first 1000 kms and check the oil levels. I'm sure Doc know his car inside out especially since he's owned his car right from launch. But I hop Chevy has tweaked their cars since then and fixed this oil leakage / burning problem.
Quote:
On a side note have you guys seen this link posted earlier on another thread? Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

I was tempted by the above link, but decided to run my car in the more traditional way.
I too was tempted, but decided to stick to the traditional method. Don't want my initial euphoria about the car to go unrestrained, and leave me with a lot to sob for later. Making the running in process progress gradually may be a better idea too. Will soon try to elaborate on how I am running it in (and believe me, the car feels smoother than a petrol ever so often that it amazes me). Hopefully by late today or tomorrow.

Edit

PS: The net is a tool to be used with caution. One can usually find information to support any view! It is such a mass of information. Read about medical issues - you'll find a reason to use or not use almost all medication. Eventually one needs to take a balanced view on things.

Edit 2
Just seen Optimist's post above
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimist View Post
I read that, and followed it with my pulsar 150. never got mileage over 35kmpl whatever i did or how smooth it was driven and made a uncomfortable sound. Finally at 30k the asc told me the bore and some valve damage is present. Change the bore and piston kit and i get 43+ and is much nicer to hear. i'm still running it in after 3k kms.

That piece has to do with a race car, where nothing else matters but winning. All parts of the vehicle are used once for the race and replaced. I'm sure 99.9999% of the population in india do not need to read that.
Thanks for sharing that piece of experience, mate. I have lived with quite a few engines. Have lived through such 'tips' and have totally spoil one engine too. Hence the caution, but that is another story for another day.

Last edited by Poitive : 25th August 2011 at 17:55.
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Old 25th August 2011, 22:26   #83
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Arrow Experiencing The VVS Magnum

For you Chrome
.
EXPERIENCING THE VVS MAGNUM
.
Taking care of the engine – Running The VVS in and other stuff. – Part I
.

After some experiences in the early years of my driving, I am quite conservative on this front. Now before we proceed, please know that I am no expert. Also that this is far from the first car I have run in. Pretty far.

Before talking about running in, let me talk about something quite basic.

The Morning After

After being unused for hours at night (or even the daytime), as almost all of us, I too usually warm up the car for a few minutes in the morning. I think it goes a long way in protecting the engine. The metals and lubricants involved in the process work differently at different temperatures. Either extreme is not good. There is expansion and contraction and a change in viscosity based on their temperature.

It is more important in diesel engines to be at the right operating temperature for them to function well. Diesel engines seem to be more sensitive to this warming up in the morning. It seems to go a significant way in keeping the NVH levels lower and an overall smoother feeling in the car. Warming up between 3-5 minutes seems to fine.

General care of Turbo

From what I know, one is supposed to keep the car at idle for about a minute ‘each’ time one turns on the engine and also each time one turns it off. I follow this practice. The times when I am not too strict about it is when I have operated the car under 1300 RPM for the last 2 minutes before parking it (still idle it for about 20-30 seconds). When I am in a big big rush, I start moving after those 20-30 seconds and then drive under 1300-1500 rpm for the first few minutes.

Running in

What is running in? Will share what ‘I’ understand. The chamber (engine) has the piston rings rubbing against the bore (insides sides of the ‘hole’). Imagine the speed they move at – each rpm count means the piston ring rubbing against the bore 2 times (once up and once down). So at a paltry 1200 RPM we are looking at 40 times per second!! It needs extremely smooth surfaces for it to function well.

Are surfaces actually as smooth when the engine is new? Well, nowadays many manufacturers claim that the car doesn’t need to be run in, so I guess they are saying that they are. But given the levels of quality control we see on some very basic things, I really don’t find it worth taking a chance with the engine of the car. Really don’t.

So the surfaces need to keep rubbing against each other to really ‘polish’ each other. This polishing will also lead to debris coming off into the system. That is why it is important to take care of the first oil change of the vehicle – would suggest that one should never delay this.

To me, running in is the time till the piston and the bore get polished enough and don’t leave out significant debris. I am not sure how one can manage to figure this one out. Experts on the forum may be able to shed some light. A rough guide for me has been to take very good care for the first 1k, good car for about another 1k, wait another 1k to go ballistic. I may be overcautious, but probably not. Doc above, talked about 17k as running in (admittedly, that was surprising to me as well).

Another reason for me to still go in for the running in process is that there are many many moving parts in a car, beyond the engine. Want to get them to higher states of stress gradually and allow them to smoothen out as well.

Part 2 later tonight or tomorrow, I hope.
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Old 26th August 2011, 01:22   #84
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Default Re: Experiencing The VVS Magnum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
After being unused for hours at night (or even the daytime), as almost all of us, I too usually warm up the car for a few minutes in the morning. I think it goes a long way in protecting the engine. The metals and lubricants involved in the process work differently at different temperatures. Either extreme is not good. There is expansion and contraction and a change in viscosity based on their temperature.

It is more important in diesel engines to be at the right operating temperature for them to function well. Diesel engines seem to be more sensitive to this warming up in the morning. It seems to go a significant way in keeping the NVH levels lower and an overall smoother feeling in the car. Warming up between 3-5 minutes seems to fine.
Warm up the engine for few mins? Poitive, I just cannot imagine myself waking up at 6.45 in the morning and turning the ignition of my Magnum at 7.15 AM only to wait few mins for the metals and lubricants to do their business. I have owned few cars (800, Zen Di, Logan, WagonR, Baleno) and except for few seconds I have never waited for minutes to take off.

Is it really necessary to do this every morning? How much difference do you think it would make in the life time of the car?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
General care of Turbo

From what I know, one is supposed to keep the car at idle for about a minute ‘each’ time one turns on the engine and also each time one turns it off. I follow this practice. The times when I am not too strict about it is when I have operated the car under 1300 RPM for the last 2 minutes before parking it (still idle it for about 20-30 seconds). When I am in a big big rush, I start moving after those 20-30 seconds and then drive under 1300-1500 rpm for the first few minutes.
Few mins every morning and 1 min every time one turns the engine on?

Protecting your car is important but are we not taking this too far?

I might not be technically competent to even question what you said but as a regular user of a car I feel this is a little extreme.

I start my car in the morning, give it a few revvs, put it in gear and carry on. Considering a car has 10 years of life (eg) how much improvement can what you said bring into it?
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Old 26th August 2011, 01:48   #85
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Default Re: Experiencing The VVS Magnum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
.
Diesel engines seem to be more sensitive to this warming up in the morning. It seems to go a significant way in keeping the NVH levels lower and an overall smoother feeling in the car. Warming up between 3-5 minutes seems to fine.
You don't need to wait for 3-5 mins. That's taking it too far. Diesel engines need to be warmed up as the combustion of the fuel is based on compression. That is why diesel engines have a glow plug (The coil like symbol on the cluster).
You just need to wait till the glow plug light goes off. Then wait a few seconds for the oil to be picked up from the sump and you are ready to go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
The chamber (engine) has the piston rings rubbing against the bore
It needs extremely smooth surfaces for it to function well.

Are surfaces actually as smooth when the engine is new? Well, nowadays many manufacturers claim that the car doesn’t need to be run in, so I guess they are saying that they are.
The surfaces ARE that smooth. Earlier, due to lack of the technology we have today, the running in was required to smoothen out the components. Today, the finishing is done to accuracy of microns and hence that is not an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoRules View Post
Is it really necessary to do this every morning? How much difference do you think it would make in the life time of the car?

Few mins every morning and 1 min every time one turns the engine on?

Protecting your car is important but are we not taking this too far?

I might not be technically competent to even question what you said but as a regular user of a car I feel this is a little extreme.
Agree with you here on all points. It's just necessary to be practical.
Just ensure that you wait till the glow plug light goes off - thats all.
And for the first 1000 km, avoid going over 2500 rpm in gear 1 and 2 and above 3000 rpm in gears 3, 4 and 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoRules View Post
I start my car in the morning, give it a few revvs, put it in gear and carry on.
Do not rev the car - let it idle for a few seconds (5-10) (not mins ), and as you said - carry on!

The important part is to listen to the engine (in the optra you have to try hard) - and if you feel / hear the strain or the knocking, ease out or downshift as required.
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Old 26th August 2011, 02:37   #86
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Default Re: Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)

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Originally Posted by NoRules View Post
Warm up the engine for few mins? Poitive, I just cannot imagine myself waking up at 6.45 in the morning and turning the ignition of my Magnum at 7.15 AM only to wait few mins for the metals and lubricants to do their business. I have owned few cars (800, Zen Di, Logan, WagonR, Baleno) and except for few seconds I have never waited for minutes to take off.
I have tried it both ways. With and without waiting. The difference in smoothness of the vehicle was enough to make me want to try for a warm up.

Quote:
Is it really necessary to do this every morning? How much difference do you think it would make in the life time of the car?
Don't know how much of a difference it would make. Too difficult to answer rationally. But it isn't only about the life. More about the smoothness of the engine.

However, if one plans for it, it becomes simpler. I usually just open the door and start the car even before getting in. Then the bag and rest of the stuff is put into place. Followed by selecting the music I want to hear. It reduces the eventual time one is really 'waiting' significantly.

When I am in a terrible rush, I try to find the driver to start it for me. Or else go at a low RPM for the first few minutes.

Quote:
Few mins every morning and 1 min every time one turns the engine on?

Protecting your car is important but are we not taking this too far?
This is recommended only for turbo-charged cars. It lubricates the turbo charger and saves it from prematurely packing up. Most people either aren't aware of this or don't bother.

Again following the practice of turning on the engine before entering makes it simpler. I also turn it off right in the end, after I have picked up my stuff from the car. One usually has done a bit of low RPM movement before stopping the car, so I may only idle it for 30 seconds.

Quote:
I might not be technically competent to even question what you said but as a regular user of a car I feel this is a little extreme.
Ah mate! I am only sharing what I know. I too am not really a technical guy. More hands on experience based.
I try to practice it earnestly in the running in period. Beyond that, at times, life's other priorities take over.

Quote:
I start my car in the morning, give it a few revvs, put it in gear and carry on. Considering a car has 10 years of life (eg) how much improvement can what you said bring into it?
That used to be a valid way to do things in the old carburated cars. With ECU controlled cars, the ECU takes care of how much 'raise' the engine needs. Again, as I said, it is not only about the life of the engine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keyur View Post
You don't need to wait for 3-5 mins. That's taking it too far. Diesel engines need to be warmed up as the combustion of the fuel is based on compression. That is why diesel engines have a glow plug (The coil like symbol on the cluster).
You just need to wait till the glow plug light goes off. Then wait a few seconds for the oil to be picked up from the sump and you are ready to go.
AFAIK, the glow plug is for waiting 'before' you crank the engine. Has nothing to do with after the engine has started!

After starting (cranking) it is supposed to be good practice to wait for a few minutes. Whether one does or doesn't, is a matter of personal choice and priorities.

Quote:
The surfaces ARE that smooth. Earlier, due to lack of the technology we have today, the running in was required to smoothen out the components. Today, the finishing is done to accuracy of microns and hence that is not an issue.
Ah yes! I realize that there is a big improvement in technology, but what about quality control (as I said before)!!! Even the big Germans aren't able to handle that. I'd rather take some precautions in the running in I know of you taking the car to very high speeds in the running in period and having a diametrically opposite view of running in.

Quote:
The important part is to listen to the engine (in the optra you have to try hard) - and if you feel / hear the strain or the knocking, ease out or downshift as required.
I never heard a knocking sound from this engine yet! (touch-wood!)

Last edited by Poitive : 26th August 2011 at 03:00. Reason: minor changes
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Old 26th August 2011, 03:05   #87
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Arrow Experiencing The VVS Magnum

.
EXPERIENCING THE VVS MAGNUM
.
Taking care of the engine – Running The VVS in and other stuff. – Part II

How I am going through the running process

When first started after a few hours of rest – Warm up between 2 to 4-5 mins, depending on how long the car has not been used. (mornings is 4-5 mins). The temperature needle going above the C mark (the line, not the letter) is a good indicator too. Is a pity, that some of the newer cars don’t have this indicator.

After that, I usually drive the car at lower RPMs till the temperature needle reaches it’s normal operating temperature (just below the half mark in my case). This only takes a few minutes.

After that normal running-in guidelines I have made for myself apply. BTW, the above is good practice even after the car is across the running in period, IMO.

Running in Guidelines I follow, after the engine has warmed up

The 1,000kms is not a magical figure when the engine would suddenly change. I take things gradually. Very careful till about say 400-500kms. Upto about 1800 RPM or so. Over the next 800-1000 kms increasing the maximum RPM gradually to 2400-2500 RPM. In this phase also giving the car ample variations in RPM. At times, even specifically going for drives when it is possible to give it these variations. Thereon limiting to about 3000RPM for about another few hundred kms (say another 1000kms) depending on the feel of the engine.

The above are guidelines. There is some variation. I usually tend to push the RPMs a bit further when the engine feels very very smooth. This usually is during a longer drive. Also typically limit the RPM to a lower level when on a lower gear and allow a slightly higher level as one moves up the gears.

The following is NOT fanboy comment –
Very often, this car feels smoother than petrol cars.
This is such a pleasant surprise! Have noticed that the car usually feels smoother on longer drives and often over about 70kmph. Guess it has to do with running at it’s operating temperature (remember the needle we see on the panel is only the temperature of the engine oil – there are many other parts in a car which could contribute to a smoother experience).

Now on these longer drive, also take the car to slightly higher RPMs than mentioned above. Only slightly. Also usually try to prevent using the car in too low an RPM in a higher gear.

To me, the smoothness suggests that I am doing things well (besides probably being lucky). Fuel used too may have a role to play, as I had said earlier.

Going beyond just the RPM, also avoid accelerating too hard. Do give it the odd thrust from 1800 to 2500 RPM though (is a delight, to say the least).

Also take care of not braking too hard, unless really needed.

Hope this helps.

PS: The above may make it seem that I drive with both eyes on the RPM meter!!! It really isn’t like that.
Eventually I base it more on the feel and enjoy the drive.

Last edited by Poitive : 26th August 2011 at 03:10. Reason: Minor updates/typos
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Old 26th August 2011, 08:23   #88
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive
.

The following is NOT fanboy comment –
Very often, this car feels smoother than petrol cars.
This is such a pleasant surprise! Have noticed that the car usually feels smoother on longer drives and often over about 70kmph. Guess it has to do with running at it's operating temperature (remember the needle we see on the panel is only the temperature of the engine oil – there are many other parts in a car which could contribute to a smoother experience).
The smoothness at higher speeds is also because of the fact that diesel cars run at lower RPMs than petrol cars at these speeds. I too find my car much smoother than my previous petrol car at high speeds. Lower RPM leads to lesser vibrations.
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Old 26th August 2011, 09:36   #89
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Default Re: Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
Before talking about running in, let me talk about something quite basic.

The Morning After
Isn't this beginning to sound like a honeymoon?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
I have tried it both ways. With and without waiting. The difference in smoothness of the vehicle was enough to make me want to try for a warm up.
Would you recommend a minute's wait on electricals on and a minute's idling before movement for a petrol vehicle too? What about when turning off?
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Old 26th August 2011, 10:03   #90
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Default Re: Experiencing The VVS Magnum

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
How I am going through the running process

When first started after a few hours of rest – Warm up between 2 to 4-5 mins, depending on how long the car has not been used. (mornings is 4-5 mins). The temperature needle going above the C mark (the line, not the letter) is a good indicator too. Is a pity, that some of the newer cars don’t have this indicator.
I idle my engine for about a minute or two from a cold start especially in the mornings. This was recommended to me by @ph03n!x. We both own Getz CRDis (my first diesel car). I haven't found any discernible difference but better safe than sorry huh?
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