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Old 2nd November 2011, 15:08   #106
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

After reading all the reviews and opinions, I think I'l wait till the ABS version is launched before even considering Force one. After totalling a bolero which refused to stop and started locking wheels for about 80 feet before banging against a bus, i think ABS must be made mandatory. My personal thought about XUV is that it has to prove that all its' electronic bells and whistles are trouble free at least for a year before it can claim to be top notch, and iam not griping about cheap plastics and so on and so forth here. Force one seems a no nonsense vehicle, but zero safety devices makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. And the pricing is insanely high for what they are offering now. Too bad, considering that by doing so they are digging their own grave.
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Old 2nd November 2011, 20:36   #107
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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
Yes, same Pratham. Though there seems to be a "Company Showroom" somewhere on Symbiosis road as well (close by to the Marriott).
There is Pratham Motors in Bangalore as well who is a major dealer chain for Maruti. Not sure if this is the same Pratham but I have had pathetic levels of service from them 4 yrs back when I owned an Alto
I recently heard that they have improved since, possibly tweaked by Maruti. Force Motors need to be doing similar tweaking but question is are they even monitoring.
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Old 2nd November 2011, 22:25   #108
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

Team,

I really don't think the Force 1 is overpriced. In a manufacturing industry, there are several thumb rules that people follow to arrive at a ROUGH COST ESTIMATE.

One of the popular methods, esp. in metal goods is to go by Rs/KG. The weight of a component, multiplied by cost/KG gives the input cost and 30% is the generally accepted manufacturing cost+overheads.

In this perspective, a 2.2 ton SUV like Safari, retails at 9.6 lacs OTR in Bangalore, where as a 1100 kg Hyundai i20 retails at 7.33 (Magna).

(I know I will get beaten up for such a crude comparison, but; )

Although the automobile companies make the final product, there are some highly specialized components (like Fuel Injection Systems comprising Filter, Pump, ECU, Rail, Injectors, High pressure pump) sold as kits by companies like Delphi / Bosch, which add significantly to the cost. (Even ABS comes as a complete system)

I think cars are way overpriced than SUVs. Going by the common logic that something made in larger numbers must cost less, is it not fair to say that most cars are overpriced compared to SUVs?

Your views please,
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Old 2nd November 2011, 23:38   #109
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Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
Team,

I really don't think the Force 1 is overpriced. In a manufacturing industry, there are several thumb rules that people follow to arrive at a ROUGH COST ESTIMATE.

One of the popular methods, esp. in metal goods is to go by Rs/KG. The weight of a component, multiplied by cost/KG gives the input cost and 30% is the generally accepted manufacturing cost+overheads.

In this perspective, a 2.2 ton SUV like Safari, retails at 9.6 lacs OTR in Bangalore, where as a 1100 kg Hyundai i20 retails at 7.33 (Magna).

(I know I will get beaten up for such a crude comparison, but; )

Although the automobile companies make the final product, there are some highly specialized components (like Fuel Injection Systems comprising Filter, Pump, ECU, Rail, Injectors, High pressure pump) sold as kits by companies like Delphi / Bosch, which add significantly to the cost. (Even ABS comes as a complete system)

I think cars are way overpriced than SUVs. Going by the common logic that something made in larger numbers must cost less, is it not fair to say that most cars are overpriced compared to SUVs?

Your views please,
Sorry but i am missing the point here. You mean to say that Ariel Atom should be priced <5L as it is very light ? Or Good old Amby should be priced at 20L since probably it weighs twice the Honda City ?
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Old 2nd November 2011, 23:48   #110
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

@autocrat:

I guess, I will simplify it using your logic on pricing. Force Motors needs to sell 1 Kg of Force 1 with 100 grams of ABS/Air Bags for about the price of 800 grams of XUV.

Is it making sense??
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Old 3rd November 2011, 10:06   #111
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
Team,

I really don't think the Force 1 is overpriced. In a manufacturing industry, there are several thumb rules that people follow to arrive at a ROUGH COST ESTIMATE.

One of the popular methods, esp. in metal goods is to go by Rs/KG. The weight of a component, multiplied by cost/KG gives the input cost and 30% is the generally accepted manufacturing cost+overheads....

Your views please,
This seriously doesn't make any sense to me. When was the last time someone compared the price of cars with their weight? There is a LOT more to cars than just weight buddy. And as per the safari and any other sedan which sells at the same price is concerned, you cannot compare them. Alright, Lets look at the new refreshed highline vento which is priced somewhat similar to the mid variants of the Safari.
You think that the quality, features and the bells and whistles it offers can be compared to that of the safari?

@4x4addict - Well said.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 11:17   #112
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

Autocrat, if what you say were true, then auto majors over the world would not be spending billions on new research into lightweight high strength polymers and materials as replacement for steel. Having spent those billions into making the cars lighter stronger and more efficient, they surely would not want generation/s old lumps of metal to out-price them based on weight! The only place where weight of metal is a directly proportional cost factor is when you sell materials as scrap, metal being easy and cost effective to recycle.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 11:26   #113
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
One of the popular methods, esp. in metal goods is to go by Rs/KG. The weight of a component, multiplied by cost/KG gives the input cost and 30% is the generally accepted manufacturing cost+overheads.
Hmmm. Perhaps this made sense 20 years back, when cars were all pretty much the same - except their size.

A mini would have the same equipment as a truck. Similar radio, similar type of drum brakes, similar carb'd engine, similar steel wheels. The only difference would be the size.

This reminds me of how my grandad used to calculate horsepower :
Liters of displacement x 2 hp. "8 liter engine? 16 hp!"

Technology has changed with time. Now we get 60+ hp / liter on average.

The same way, a hatchback might have ABS, EBD, direct injection, all-round discs, power windows, sunroof, 8 speakers, monocoque, aluminum roof, multi-link suspension, alloy wheels. Whereas a SUV that weighs the same might have NONE of the above.

Sure, metal thickness / weight might still play a small part in cost, but its largely diluted by technology, R&D and manufacturing techniques these days.

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 3rd November 2011 at 11:30.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 21:40   #114
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

Team,

As expected, lots of brickbats

I have worked in Bosch (Diesel Fuel Injection Systems) and I know the money being spent on R&D and engineering. All that money spent has to be recovered and some more made to fund new research.

This is the reason why the following disclaimer was added:
"Although the automobile companies make the final product, there are some highly specialized components (like Fuel Injection Systems comprising Filter, Pump, ECU, Rail, Injectors, High pressure pump) sold as kits by companies like Delphi / Bosch, which add significantly to the cost. (Even ABS comes as a complete system)"


I still feel, as the volumes go up, the price has to come down, and may be for the numbers Force 1 is selling at, the pricing is not bad.

May be if they sell the SUV in bigger numbers, they can haggle with their vendors, get bigger discounts and pass the benefit to customers.

I know of some major vendors who refuse to supply below a certain volume. Its all a numbers game
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Old 6th November 2011, 00:07   #115
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

Any idea how many have been sold so far? I saw a couple of pictures on facebook. It looks good in grey too.

PS: Just visited my uncle who own's an Endeavour. That has made me think again about the F1
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Old 6th November 2011, 09:03   #116
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
Team,

As expected, lots of brickbats
Naturally mate, if you are suggesting us to pay for cars by weight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
I still feel, as the volumes go up, the price has to come down, and may be for the numbers Force 1 is selling at, the pricing is not bad.


I think you are missing the point here. Your point of view is correct only from the manufacturers point of view. Firodia says, it costs me Rs. X to build the Force 1 so I need to sell it for Rs. X + profit margin. However, the problem is this logic is that there are other manufacturers like Mahindra and Tata who are offering better value. So your logic doesn't make sense for the consumer..

For a barebones SUV from a manufacturer with a spotty record, with no safety features, pricing is too high.

Do you agree?
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Old 6th November 2011, 09:07   #117
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post

For a barebones SUV from a manufacturer with a spotty record, with no safety features, pricing is too high.

Do you agree?
Totally
Its quite a dilemma I say - they cant rake up volumes at this price and they can bring down prices at this volume - if they have to sell, they need to cut margins till volumes pick up.
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Old 6th November 2011, 16:19   #118
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Its quite a dilemma I say - they cant rake up volumes at this price and they can bring down prices at this volume - if they have to sell, they need to cut margins till volumes pick up.
Very true..

I have been saying this from Day one that Force doesn't have the market recognition to reach for the 10 Lakhs + bracket. Unlike what some folks here think most buyers don't care if Force is assembling older Mercedes power trains.

I feel that they should have iimproved the Trax/Judo/Gama and taken on the Bolero first which sells about 8k units a month. After having made inroads into the Bolero market, they should have then slowly moved up the value chain. They have spend their whole life catering to the yellow board crowd and want to change to a premium car maker overnight.

Last edited by 4x4addict : 6th November 2011 at 16:21.
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Old 28th November 2011, 16:20   #119
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

Let me put in my brief experience with the beast.
I happened to visit the Force Motors Showroom at Ambattur Ind Estate area (Chennai) couple of weeks ago, out of sheer curiosity. Following are my observations;
1. I did not see much of a crowd except us and one more interested party in the showroom. But these days i am seeing a lot of activities in the showroom, seeing quite a few curious customers liasioning with the sales executive on daily basis as I pass by the showroom daily to my office.
2. The customer executive Mageshwari was courteous and very forthcoming in sharing my understanding/views at the same time put forward points wherever needed. Altogether seemed to be an knowledgable sales exec in the showrrom.
3. Now coming to the Vehicle, It surely deserves the name Beast!! Yes it is indeed one, huge and imposing. I got a chance to see both black and the white. The exterior design resembles more of Ford Explorer so is the street presence of its. The exterior fit and finish seemed to be much better than other competitors like Scorpio, Grande etc, though Safari seems to be better.
4. The model comes with All Day lights like BMW or Audi which should look amazing given its presence and stance. Inside its space will make you awe, a true SUV with three row comfortable seating arrangements. This includes generous third row leg room which is more than Grande/Innova's third row space. Post that there is good amount of luggage space which can accomodate 2 medium size suitcases. Infact the display vehicle had two stuffed in. Again the luggage area is much better than Innova for sure.
4. The internal fit and finish is nothing to talk about, few controls were flimsy. Even the Cruise control doesn't look like one! When inquired with the Sales Exec, she said "the second lot which are being dispatched are better than these initial models (which belong to first lot). Sir you can see a lot of difference in the second lots in terms of quality and new features since these are assembled by Daimler technicians directly. The first lot were assembled by Force technicians to roll out the demo models." However she did not give information on the additional features which I inquired about (may be she did not have). I was curious to know if ABS and Airbags are on its way.
5. Opening the bonnet, you will find the Engine with Force logo. The Sale exec claimed its the same engine working in Mercedes C class which took me by surprise. Though I am not sure on that, if it is indeed the case that is something a good news.
6. The outlet takes care of the service as well. When wanted to know on the number side, the sales exec told me already 54 units were booked and within 2 - 3 months vehicles will be delivered.
7. The chassis was on display, looked very rugged to take up the beast and the coil springs at the back gave some consolation that the ride quality will not be that bad on bad roads.
8. The On Road price of the model was 12.9 lacs Chennai

Final Impressions:
1. A person like me who is looking for a proper native SUV with rugged looks at the sametime with ample space for the luggage and most importnatly ultimate comfort in all three rows with creature comfort and space, this beast is real promising one. Yes it has awesome space.
2. Fit and Finish inside is a question mark. Hope the second lot addresses this issue.
3. Price seems to be not in line with the competition atleast for a new enterant hence a definite down.
4. The absence of Safety features is a sure disadvantage considering the size and power.
5. The Long term relaibility and durability is not known since being a fresh effort. Though collaboration with Daimler Chrysler and Force Motors reputation in building passenger carriers for quite long time should inspire some confidence.
6. Performance need to be gauged only after a Test drive

I had booked for a Test Drive and will post my comments after I take one. Meanhile few pics that i could manage to take and the broucher of the vehicle is attached along with.
Attached Thumbnails
Force One: Test Drive & Review-img_20111111_163736.jpg  

Force One: Test Drive & Review-img_20111111_163759.jpg  

Force One: Test Drive & Review-img_20111111_163814.jpg  

Force One: Test Drive & Review-img_20111111_163825.jpg  

Force One: Test Drive & Review-img_20111111_163842.jpg  

Force One: Test Drive & Review-img_20111111_163858.jpg  

Force One: Test Drive & Review-img_20111111_163921.jpg  

Force One: Test Drive & Review-img_20111111_163955.jpg  

Force One: Test Drive & Review-img_20111111_164008.jpg  

Attached Files
File Type: pdf Force One.pdf (2.07 MB, 788 views)

Last edited by shivag : 28th November 2011 at 16:31.
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Old 28th November 2011, 23:25   #120
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Default Re: Force One: Test Drive & Review

@Shivag - Good, objective review. Good pics as well. I'm coveting this vehicle for very long, who knows when they'll be able to arrange a TD in Kolkata.

A TD would have added to the detail though.
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