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Old 24th March 2012, 13:12   #16
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Wonderful comparo. As mentioned in the above post, adding Safari Storme [once it launches] would be Awesome. Looks like you guys had a lot of fun with these TDs.

Did you guys check with the Force SE how many vehicles have been sold so far? I feel that they should make sure to incorporate all the feedbacks when they launch the 4WD and make sure the customers get a much better package. They also need to re-position this vehicle to attract more buyers. A sub 10L price for 2WD should bring in some extra sales. They can't be stubborn about the prices and be a direct competition to XUV 500!

What I like about M&M is the improvements they have made after the launch! The car was an instant hit and would have continued to be so even if they didn't improve the fit & finish. But they took efforts to make the product better and hence my vote goes there. It's high time that Force starts working with this attitude, if they want to remain competitive in this space.

Once again THANK YOU for a beautiful thread, The Good, The Bad & The Ugly!
Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately the sales figures were not available when we went for TD. But their sales force is well trained and well informed about the features of the car as well as other vehicles which works very well in their advantage as they are able to explain the vehicle in a much better way resulting in increase in confidence. The overall attitude of force one seemed very positive compared to Mahindra, who were also keen but a bit snobish. The vehicle looks quite macho and considering that one of the main selling point for endy to sell was its looks, this vehicle will hit numbers. I totally agree it was really nice to see that M&M had made significant improvements over the months after the launch of their vehicle. I have noticed this in past as well when they had launched Scorpio. They take customer feedback quite seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
Very nice comparison.
Another point that goes against the Force One is the poor service network. Force motors needs to ramp up its sales and service network fast if it wants the vehicle to pick up any decent sales.
I think this is their first venture in this segment and they are treading with caution as to not crash and burn which is appreciable. But yes they definitely need to ramp up the show to compete.

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Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
Great comparo Dot, Monaro CV8 and Subodh. Have you guys felt that the bulk of the Force One might go against it in those hilly areas of Himachal and North East? Also, if possible, please try to do a TD of the XUV5OO on those steep inclines that you have mentioned and let us know if the FWD faces any problem.
Hey Black pearl, Not sure about the North eastern hilly areas and the bulk of the vehicle as I have never driven in that area before but considering the agility which is available with this size, I am quite sure that it will perform better than endy in this scenario. The XUV even though being a front wheel drive, has got decent amount of power to pull the vehicle. The turbo lag is negligible and it might come handy when we are considering the steep inclines. It also comes with hill start assist which is an added advantage. in terms of off road performance, XUV is no last runner in fact if we ignore the low front bumper which we felt could be an hindrance,the vehicle shows good signs of doing offroad stints. It might not be able to do what a proper 4x4 might be able to do, but none the less, it cannot be discounted as a weak performer.

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Originally Posted by Guderian View Post
Fabulous comparision and write up dot, Monaro and Subodh !
Collaboration at its best.
Service network is certainly one worrisome area of the Force 1, besides of course quality matters, fit and finish. However even the XUV seems to be having initial hiccups.
Incidentally what equipments do you think the Force 1 4X4 would be shod with ? Any predictions whether it would have, like the Gurkha, differential locks etc ? With the all the tools of the OTR trade in it, the Force 1 4X4 would be irresistable...to heck with the service issues I'd say.

Shabash and well done guys !
Thank you HG. I would give credit to DOT for his perseverance in making this thread happen. According to me HG, the force 1 should be shod with luxury features frankly to face the stiff competition in this segment. Force one already seems to be capable offroader in its own terms and adding 4x4 will give it much required capablities. If we are looking from pure enthusiast point of view, yes diff locks and snorkles make sense but frankly that will not see any numbers in terms of sales for force one and therefore we might not be able to see these options.

As for what others and you have very well pointed out, service network needs to be definately ramped up.

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Originally Posted by 220kmph View Post
Spot on with the reviews. I dare say that about 75 % of India's SUV wanna-bes' are waiting in the wings for the 4x4 version (and I am one of them)!! The people at Force motors have been quite pro-active and have been surely but silently taking in feedbacks and reviews(check out their FB page @ SUV Force One).

Photographs don't do justice to the F1. Seeing it in the flesh just blows your breath away.

Like any true blue off-roader, the Force One has minimal of electronics that could cause maximum trouble when out in the rough. We are already hearing horror stories of the XUV's Tyre pressure monitoring system giving erroneous readings.

The 4x4 version of the F1 is surely going to be a deal-breaker. We now have to only wait and watch.
Thanks Buddy, we are all awaiting the launch of more 4x4's in the market.

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Originally Posted by pganapathy View Post
Congrats on an awesome review GOOD, BAD and UGLY

It seems that the XUV is a soft roader at best, which makes it a perfect city car but not something that can take abuse, unlike their older products like the Bolero and Scorpio. I guess that is the price you pay for better road manners and comfort. Not that it can't be done, as shown by the Porsche Cayenne, but it takes serious engineering might and skill to do so.

I am impressed with M&M for the quick improvement in a few months. They are truly following the principle of Kaizen.

The F1 is actually a brilliant off road vehicle that would sell brilliantly if they could actually work on QC and fit and finish. A very unfortunate issue that is keeping sales low. In addition, their service centres are very sparse indeed. Work on those two and this would be the vehicle of choice for rural India for sure and would even sell well in urban India (where jungle rules say might is right unfortunately Do you really want that big a vehicle in your rear view mirror).
Thank you for your kind words. I would say that XUV is more than just soft roader. Take her on bad surface and the only minus point I could see is bumper getting scraped. Believe me, Professionally I have to drive on bad roads as I am related to Mining Sector and I have taken sedans to places people are scared to take their suv's. The only niggle i saw in XUV was it might start rattling over the period of time if driven extensively over bad roads, else it is a able performer. The only problem i faced was in size of tyres on XUV which i felt were not adequate. On braking at fast speeds,for e.g. When i was breaking from 120kmph, the ABS did not engage and the wheels were squiking.
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Old 24th March 2012, 15:25   #17
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Post Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

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Originally Posted by kevinephraim View Post
Subodh, Monaro and Dot,

Thanks for the awesome comparision!!!!!!

Noticed that the XUV500 is registered earlier than the Force One, so am I right in assuming that the XUV pictures are of the initial TD in Aug/Sept 2011 and the Force One pictures are in Feb 2012?
Hey Kevin,
Thanks for the well wishes mate!

Regarding your observations about the car registration dates:

We did TD the XUV after the Force One. It was dot's 2nd time after Sept'2011.
The Test Drive XUV was fairly new, just 1400 clicks on the Odometer. The Test Drive Force One had done about 34000 km on the Odo.

Last edited by Monaro CV8 : 24th March 2012 at 15:35.
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Old 24th March 2012, 15:47   #18
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

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Originally Posted by 220kmph View Post
Photographs don't do justice to the F1. Seeing it in the flesh just blows your breath away.
I agree.
We really wanted to take photos when the vehicle was moving. Felt that it little better than taking pictures when standstill.

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Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
That video is by fellow bhpian Adc.
Thanks! I dont visit 4*4 and travelogue sections too much, so missed his threads. Now thanks to you, found those gems. Amazing to say the least.

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Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
I feel the Force One will also face the same problem as it looks very similar in size to the Endy.
P.S: A comparison report with the Endeavour will be very helpful.
We will try to TD the Endy! Having said that, I have driven the Safari a bit. IMO, Force One has better handling characteristics than the Safari.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinephraim View Post
Noticed that the XUV500 is registered earlier than the Force One, so am I right in assuming that the XUV pictures are of the initial TD in Aug/Sept 2011 and the Force One pictures are in Feb 2012?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monaro CV8 View Post
Hey Kevin,
We did TD the XUV after the Force One. It was dot's 2nd time after Sept'2011.
The Test Drive XUV was fairly new, just 1400 clicks on the Odometer. The Test Drive Force One had done about 34000 km on the Odo.
Yeah, I do not know why the registration number is older, but pretty sure that the TD vehicle is from the second lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinephraim View Post
As all have said before, it does look like Mahindra is listening to the feedback and improving the XUV500 with every batch. Hopefully Force motors will do the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pganapathy View Post
I am impressed with M&M for the quick improvement in a few months. They are truly following the principle of Kaizen.
I agree and hope even Force takes the feedback seriously. That is one reason we were very keen to make this thread happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subodh View Post
On braking at fast speeds,for e.g. When i was breaking from 120kmph, the ABS did not engage and the wheels were squiking.
But it did stop the vehicle in quick time isnt it?
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Old 24th March 2012, 17:37   #19
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

Great write up Dot, Subodh and Monaro.

Looking at the spec sheet comparison i really wonder why would a potential customer go with the Force. Only for the engine under the hood??

Monaro Bhai - While you were at it i am sure you were making mental notes and comparing it with Fortuner So any additional points to be added on that front??
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Old 24th March 2012, 18:44   #20
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

Nice review by The Good , Bad and the Ugly

Well 2 of my friends own the Force One ( Stripped down Mercedes ) as they call it. Though the cars are used on North Karnataka and with regular Bangalore trips, both the cars have done almost 85000 kms in a matter of few months, I have always seen them praise the way it runs inspite of the kms clocked. The Mercedes Engine and the Lotus suspension combo sure has done a lot good to the car, and basically reliability issues are only pertaining to the tyres and injector issues due to bad fuel quality. Breakdowns a NO NO as per them. Even a general search on the WWW. gives positive reviews of the Force One from car owners. I think that itself is a huge relief to put your money into the Force One. But how many Force One SUV's are sold Month on Month, do we have the sales figures??

And XUV..! let me not make any comments, its been the talk of the town.

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Old 24th March 2012, 19:25   #21
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

Very well written review and thanks to subodh, dot and monaro CV8 for your efforts. While I take away the general consensus amongst you is that force one has lot of potential, there seems to be a difference of observation as far as the braking is concerned, can you share more around this? I'm still not convinced about lack of ABS on a vehicle which is costing you a million bucks and has relatively high CG compared to cars.

Given the utilitarian nature of the SUV and the lack of features, force could have priced it a little lower. Though it is a product with potential, does it deserve the asking price? What do you think.

Once again, appreciate your collective effort in penning this down. I see all the three of your reviews as very neutral and honest, very well done.
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Old 25th March 2012, 13:35   #22
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

Force Motors is slowly ramping its production from a mere 50 nos per month it has now come close to 500 vehicles per month with a nearly no marketing strategy. Work for 4x4 is already started & a possible launch can be expect in July-August period. Well ABS would be included with 4x4 launch & airbags would get integrated by December 2012.
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Old 25th March 2012, 14:51   #23
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

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Originally Posted by 007 Bond View Post
Force Motors is slowly ramping its production from a mere 50 nos per month it has now come close to 500 vehicles per month with a nearly no marketing strategy. Work for 4x4 is already started & a possible launch can be expect in July-August period. Well ABS would be included with 4x4 launch & airbags would get integrated by December 2012.
DO you by any chance know what's been the monthly sales figures?

Also what's with these guys, safety equipment gets integrated in different builds??
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Old 25th March 2012, 16:36   #24
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
DO you by any chance know what's been the monthly sales figures?

Also what's with these guys, safety equipment gets integrated in different builds??
In December it was 180 January it was 250 February it was 300, March it was planned 500 but achievable would be somewhere close to 400.

Well airbags was first planned but the supplier to whom it was delegated in 11 hour could not succeed, also technical know how of force team could have been a suspect as they don't have a single vehicle in their arsenal with ABS & Airbags. a new supplier has been identified & things are in progress.
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Old 25th March 2012, 19:35   #25
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Well 2 of my friends own the Force One ( Stripped down Mercedes ) as they call it. Though the cars are used on North Karnataka and with regular Bangalore trips, both the cars have done almost 85000 kms in a matter of few months, I have always seen them praise the way it runs inspite of the kms clocked.
Both the vehicles has done 85000 kms each? Thats a lot of kilometers in five-six months. I can assume that the vehicles would have gone for multiple services with this running. How was the service experience? Any other issues faced?

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Originally Posted by 007 Bond View Post

Force Motors is slowly ramping its production

Work for 4x4 is already started & a possible launch can be expect in July-August period. Well ABS would be included with 4x4 launch & airbags would get integrated by December 2012.
Thats a good news. Do you know if they are looking at those loose ends of the interiors?
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Old 25th March 2012, 20:31   #26
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

Saw a shoot out on Tv, Overdrive. They recommended the Force for the Mercedes Engine alone.

The Mahindra XUV scores over the Force Motors car on all other factors.

Last edited by nanduchitnis : 25th March 2012 at 20:32.
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Old 25th March 2012, 21:18   #27
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

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Originally Posted by nanduchitnis View Post
Saw a shoot out on Tv, Overdrive. They recommended the Force for the Mercedes Engine alone.
Have not seen the show and most likely cant. Hence asking: They also conducted a shootout comparo between these two SUVs? Thats incredible co-incidence aint it?

The show hosts recommended Force One over XUV only because of the engine? Wow!
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Old 25th March 2012, 21:39   #28
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

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Originally Posted by dot View Post
Have not seen the show and most likely cant. Hence asking: They also conducted a shootout comparo between these two SUVs? Thats incredible co-incidence aint it?

The show hosts recommended Force One over XUV only because of the engine? Wow!
I saw one comparo in Timesdrive as well. And immediate thought was about this co-incidence
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Old 26th March 2012, 08:48   #29
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Post Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

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Originally Posted by amitwlele View Post
Looking at the spec sheet comparison i really wonder why would a potential customer go with the Force. Only for the engine under the hood??
That is exactly the purpose of this thread. Looking merely at the spec sheet, anyone would tend to get biased and lean towards the XUV. It was only after we got to spend some time with the Force One, did we realize the potential in that car. In my opinion, it is a true underdog.

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Originally Posted by amitwlele View Post
Monaro Bhai - While you were at it i am sure you were making mental notes and comparing it with Fortuner So any additional points to be added on that front??
Amit, comparing the Force One with the Fortuner wouldn't do justice to the former
But yes, we can always use it as a benchmark.
Like I mentioned in my OP, the gearbox of the Force One needs to be more refined. The brakes need some getting used to.

And yes, the most important of them all..space!
The 3rd row legroom is more than that of the Fortuner's !
Don't believe ? During the test drive, I took the liberty to ride in the last row, for a good 20mins.

This pic was taken by Dot.
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Apart from the head room, which I found a bit less (for tallish people; I'm 5'11"), the ride was comfortable. Not at all bumpy like the Endy's 3rd row.


IMO, Force Motors need to do the following 2 things, on top priority:
1. Interior fit & finish needs to be uplifted.
2. Aggressive marketing!

This will ensure that Force One will be appealing to the Urban market as well.
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Old 26th March 2012, 10:14   #30
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Default Re: Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid: A Comparison between Force One and Mahindra XUV

Nice thread!

I was part of the Force One SUV TD with dot and Monaro_CV8. My impressions in brief:

Dealer Experience:

There were a lot of complaints about the first (and only, for some time) Pune dealer Pratham but we went to Siddharth on SB Road and it was a very pleasant experience. The showrooms are really snazzy: perfectly set up for a single car dealership. There is a display vehicle in "emphatic grey" which is actually a very nice colour. Next to it is a bare-bones frame (chassis + engine + tyres) which is an excellent idea when you come to think about it. Force must have taken the initial negative feedback on the showrooms into account because the front end executive was a very helpful and efficient lady.

They allowed us to take a pic of the car in the showroom but not the frame:
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Looks:
First impression this car makes on you is: Wow! The front is particularly impressive but I like the way it looks overall, 100 mm longer than the Fortuner means it is a big boy all right and no quirkiness a la the XUV. The TD car was white and coming on to its first service.
The Chinese-made panels apparently cost 35% of what most manufacturers pay for them and it shows- they are a bit flimsy and not even close to German or even Japanese standards. Thunk test failed by a big margin. And though the paint looks good, the finishing is ordinary- no attention to detail.

Interiors:

The one we drove had beige seats (black is an option) and a bench for middle row (pilot seats available for marginally more). Interiors are beige though thankfully the steering wheel is greyish-black. I didn't think it was a Landy ripoff steering though suhaas has said so on Archish's TD thread. It's nice and chunky to hold, quite responsive and gives good feedback- not at all vague like the Safari's. I found it better than the Fortuner's but then I haven't driven the Toyota in a while and Monaro, a Fortuner owner himself, hastened to disabuse me of that notion . Ah well, the Fortuner does cost almost double!

Beige interiors were suprisingly not bad at all. Dashboard plastics hard as one may imagine but then so are those in my Vento. Stalks were particularly hard but then I am used to the best-in-class VW stalks now.

The 2DIN JVC HU looks OK, though sound is strictly average even by OE ICE standards. AC is so-so, for some reason the driver side wasn't cooling as much as the passenger side- driver claimed the gas was out.

Driving Experience:

We did a run across to Khadki cantonment and found a nice track suitable for mild off-roading. I have never done anything of this sort and was happy to throw it around in sedan-like fashion in second gear, but the others slowed me down to a crawl (literally...first gear, no throttle input up a rocky stretch). The driver accompanying us was grinning and going along with anything we did. He told us he usually does the driving and the track near Tathawade that he uses is much worse than the one we'd chosen!

I really liked the driving experience. It handles well enough in the city: we took it to about 80 and it stayed rock-steady, no vibrations, no perceptible body roll. I got the impression you shouldn't really rip in this baby since the brakes are strictly average (only front discs, no ABS). But on the rough terrain, the Force One really came into its element (what do you call this vehicle? "The One" sounds too grandiose )- keep in mind this is a 4X2 so slush-handling capability (untested during our TD) are still suspect. I like keeping my vehicles (and myself) dry so it's not really a dealbreaker for me.

We all took turns at the wheel and in the middle row. Monaro (all 5'11" and 94 kgs of him) decided to even venture into the last row and declared it usable. There is a fair bit of boot space even with the rear seats in place, which is good. Spare tyre is neatly tucked under the vehicle, which makes it look classy.

I expected the seating position to be average but this vehicle has steering height adjust plus the steering wheel height adjust (no reach) so finding a good seating position was not a problem at all. Usually this is a problem with me: when my Vento comes back fro servicing I usually spend 15 minutes trying to adjust it back and often even after that don't succeed .

Pricing etc.:
It helped that I went in with very low expectations: I found myself liking this car more and more as I drove it. The price tag (12.57lac on-road in PMC, without discounts) was the best part. The driver seems to have been trained well: he declared that it was the price of a Verna (is it?) and that you could buy this AND an i10 for the price you'd pay for an Endy .

Deal breakers:

Lack of even basic safety features is its only glaring fault. No discs all around may be forgiven but no ABS, no airbags means it's virtually out of contention as a family carrier. I plan to lug my wife and kid, parents and the occasionally visiting relative in this- the space is just perfect with tons of legroom. Here's the good news: the ABS & airbags version is expected to come in 8 months time. no word on 4X4, though that was also announced at Auto Expo I think.

Buyer's Remorse?
Later in the day, showed my wife the showroom as we drove past and she liked the look of it. Liked the price even more when I told her, said "Maybe we should have waited" (we bought the Vento in Jan 2011).

One thing is obvious: this is selling faster in semi-rural India than the cities. The driver told us most of the people he demos to are "gaonwale". Serious image problem I guess. But frankly at this price I don't care and overall think this has awesome road presence as well.

I have yet to TD the XUV5OO. Had put in an online request when bookings were announced and followed it with a c ouple of reminders but I suppose Mahindra is doing good enough business without bothering to respond to every single request . But after this thread am tempted to call them and ask for one!

Last edited by noopster : 26th March 2012 at 10:36. Reason: Corrected the OTR price
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