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Old 30th October 2013, 12:20   #601
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Originally Posted by motomaverick View Post

Yeah what I am assuming is he is aiming at 260NM at crank. But looking at the Dyno graph between 1500 to 2500 the torque actually goes down and stays flat, while the bhp increases slightly, is there a possibility that the drop for the torque is reduced with a slight increase rather than flat. Or maybe it can linearly go up instead of a drop. That would for sure eliminate the lag. Do check with him, I have not been able to find time to meet him these days with all the family obligations
234 Nm at wheels and approx 265Nm at crank is what the RD dual channel box produced. I suspect this new map from Sidharth will trounce that figure.

Afterall, he himself has called it a cracker of a map.

2500 rpm was the weak point in the earlier map. All of us expressed this concern and I'm sure this will be taken care of in the new map.

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Old 30th October 2013, 12:34   #602
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
234 Nm at wheels and approx 265Nm at crank is what the RD dual channel box produced. I suspect this new map from Sidharth will trounce that figure.

Afterall, he himself has called it a cracker of a map.

2500 rpm was the weak point in the earlier map. All of us expressed this concern and I'm sure this will be taken care of in the new map.
234NM at the wheels from the RD Dual box? I guess thats in P2 mode. Did you check the P1 mode as well? So your Punto would have put a faster time in the vbox if it was calculated.

By the way Karthik, once you get this new map, I might try and pounce on it for my car as well Right now the Manza is not 100% with service pending after the trip.

Last edited by motomaverick : 30th October 2013 at 12:35.
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Old 30th October 2013, 12:53   #603
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

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Originally Posted by motomaverick View Post
234NM at the wheels from the RD Dual box? I guess thats in P2 mode. Did you check the P1 mode as well? So your Punto would have put a faster time in the vbox if it was calculated.
Yes. We calculated all 4 modes for the RD box as well. Thanks to Karthik for taking the initiative and pushing me into this -

Remap should have better timings because of the better top-end. Only issue with the remap currently is the dead spot at 2500 rpm. VBox will be calculated for both cars once the red rocket is ready with the cracker tune.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...ml#post3276972 (Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm)

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Old 30th October 2013, 13:29   #604
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by motomaverick View Post
Yeah what I am assuming is he is aiming at 260NM at crank. But looking at the Dyno graph between 1500 to 2500 the torque actually goes down and stays flat, while the bhp increases slightly, is there a possibility that the drop for the torque is reduced with a slight increase rather than flat. Or maybe it can linearly go up instead of a drop. That would for sure eliminate the lag. Do check with him, I have not been able to find time to meet him these days with all the family obligations
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
2500 rpm was the weak point in the earlier map. All of us expressed this concern and I'm sure this will be taken care of in the new map.
This was one of his main concerns too. I believe he has rectified this with the new map. I remember him telling in the beginning, it will take a few adjustments to arrive at the perfect map for every customer. The dyno run just helped us pinpoint where exactly he needed to make the adjustments . Nice experience for us car owners too! RaceDynamics Dieseltronic performance was a pleasant surprise. Fellow MultiJet users CD and nkrishnap, thanks for making it for the dyno run. Your inputs were very valuable in refining the map!

Quote:
234 Nm at wheels and approx 265Nm at crank is what the RD dual channel box produced. I suspect this new map from Sidharth will trounce that figure.

Afterall, he himself has called it a cracker of a map.
I don't know about that CD. I don't think Sid is aiming at bettering the DieselTronic figures at all. I don't remember giving him the Dieseltronic box graph set also *lol*. His main adjustments with the new map will be to get rid of that 2400 rpm torque curve flat spot, and to bring in the peak torque slightly earlier than now. DieselTronic will mostly still win the peak torque numbers battle

Quote:
Originally Posted by motomaverick View Post
234NM at the wheels from the RD Dual box? I guess thats in P2 mode. Did you check the P1 mode as well? So your Punto would have put a faster time in the vbox if it was calculated.

By the way Karthik, once you get this new map, I might try and pounce on it for my car as well Right now the Manza is not 100% with service pending after the trip.
CD bunked the VBox test that morning due to some errands. I'll try to get his Punto onboard one of these weekends and we will try to do a head-to-head comparo of the remapped 90HP v/s DieselTronic box'ed 90HP with:

0-60 kmph
0-100 kmph
30-80 kmph (3rd gear)
40-100 kmph (4th gear)
1/4 mile time

I am expecting the P2 to run almost the same performance figures as the remap from start to 100, but the lag-free remap will probably beat the T-box in the roll-on acceleration timings, by a noticeable margin. We'll see what the vbox tells us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Remap should have better timings because of the better top-end. Only issue with the remap currently is the dead spot at 2500 rpm. VBox will be calculated for both cars once the red rocket is ready with the cracker tune.
Yeah, I think we should do this once the corrected/refined map is ready. I have another pending dyno run to check how the torque and power curve shapes have changed post map-refinement.

Last edited by KarthikK : 30th October 2013 at 13:38.
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Old 30th October 2013, 13:33   #605
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

Gr8 thread KarthikK! I wanted to know abit more about the re-mapping. Would re-mapping have to be done over a period of time, or could it be done at 1 go too?

Also, does it affect any other components of the car, like exhaust etc. Some of us wouldn't have warranty, would it be risky to try these re-maps?

('09 Linea mjd)
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Old 30th October 2013, 14:21   #606
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

Thanks GrammanNazi!

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Originally Posted by GrammarNazi View Post
Gr8 thread KarthikK! I wanted to know abit more about the re-mapping. Would re-mapping have to be done over a period of time, or could it be done at 1 go too?
There is no such rule. Basically the tuner will listen to what you need and give you the best tune for your requirements - be it better FE, or better low end grunt, better mid range grunt or a hybrid map which will be a better all round improvement, etc.

Usually this is how it works - the tuner gives you a map and you drive it for a few days. If you don't like some part of it or feel some area can be better if improved, he will do the adjustment in the map and flash it back for you. It usually needs 2-3 visits to arrive at the best fit. Of course, there are people who have got it right at the first map itself, but most driving enthusiasts will usually pick out improvement areas after a few days of driving the modified tune. Most tuners nowadays will come home and do the remapping for you, so the inconvenience is little to nothing. Once the first map is tuned and modified, the subsequent adjustments won't consume too much time for either you or him since he has a copy of your map and just needs to improvise from there on.

Quote:
Also, does it affect any other components of the car, like exhaust etc. Some of us wouldn't have warranty, would it be risky to try these re-maps?
('09 Linea mjd)
Remapping is done usually within tolerance limits of the components (usually 25-30% increase in output), so there is very little risk unless you go all out on an aggressive tune-up which will begin to stress out those important engine components. I dived into it myself inspite of this being an in-warranty car and there's been no looking back with the transformation it has brought about. If you're out of warranty, you don't have much to lose anyway right? Whether you'd like to go ahead with remaps or not depends on the individual risk appetite, but honestly speaking this is more of an overall tune-up as opposed to a tuning box, so it is theoretically safer (and cleaner) than plugging in a piggyback box. There are remapped cars which have done in excess of 50k kms after the tune-up and running without issues. If you're thinking of box v/s remap, my personal vote goes for remap.

Yes, there will be some decrease in component life post-remap (probably 5% less than what they would last in stock form), but it won't be drastic to cause reliability issues in the long run, since most factory tune settings are designed to run at lower than optimal capacity due to ability to handle low fuel quality, or to ensure minimal complaints from customers on reliability when abused, etc. As long as the car is serviced frequently on schedule and maintained properly, it will be able to handle a higher state of tune and provide similar reliability levels (as stock), just that the tuners need to know where to draw the line when increasing the outputs.

Last edited by KarthikK : 30th October 2013 at 14:31.
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Old 30th October 2013, 18:31   #607
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

Thanks Karthik for the detailed report.
2 questions:

1) What gear were these dyno runs done in?
I'm guessing they should be done in 5th to achieve max numbers (as revs will rise the slowest in top gear, giving ample time for the turbo to build up that boost!)

2) Why don't the dyno runs start from 1000 RPM? Again, this will ensure that we get to peak boost as soon as possible.


There's a big difference in when peak torque comes in on the dyno charts (~3100RPM) and what Fiat claims (~2000RPM)
I think the 2 questions above may help us understand this difference better
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Old 30th October 2013, 23:10   #608
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

Boy oh Boy what an update. I am very happy to read about your remapped car. There are very few guys who can actually tune a car really nice and its great to hear a happy customer.

Frankly tuning industry in India is really nascent and few tuners know their job well. Reading your post TOT know their work and are really professional. I might end up with a map soon for my car. Let see when and how.
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Old 30th October 2013, 23:50   #609
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Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
Thanks Karthik for the detailed report.
2 questions:

1) What gear were these dyno runs done in?
I'm guessing they should be done in 5th to achieve max numbers (as revs will rise the slowest in top gear, giving ample time for the turbo to build up that boost!)

2) Why don't the dyno runs start from 1000 RPM? Again, this will ensure that we get to peak boost as soon as possible.
There's a big difference in when peak torque comes in on the dyno charts (~3100RPM) and what Fiat claims (~2000RPM)
I think the 2 questions above may help us understand this difference better
1. Run was done in 4th gear. They don't just bury the throttle, hit the full rpm and say its done. Its takes more time than normal for the revs to build as the dynamometer controls the load and thus the engine speeds as per its in-built calculations. Anyways, turbo spool time doesn't seem to be an issue here.

2. Dyno run starts from idle rpm but its useless plotting the same on the graph since valuable engine torque is used up for building momentum for the dyno.

Manufacturers like FIAT should be using engine dynamometers to measure the qouted figures. There is a world of difference between the two methods, not to mention the engine itself is not suffering from transmission load and losses. Would suggest not to do an on-paper comparison of the two. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Now- One doubt that I have regarding your post. Can you please explain how we can spool the turbo more effectively if we start from lower rpms? Theoretical reply would be fine. Just for my understanding.
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Old 30th October 2013, 23:59   #610
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
Thanks Karthik for the detailed report.
2 questions:

1) What gear were these dyno runs done in?
I'm guessing they should be done in 5th to achieve max numbers (as revs will rise the slowest in top gear, giving ample time for the turbo to build up that boost!)
It can be done in any gear theoretically. They are usually done in 3rd or 4th gears to ensure that the machine's data logging can take a longer set of samples over the same rpm range (more time allowed). The dyno can also be done in 5th gear, but in some cars, running at high RPMs in 5th gear can lead to speeds in excess of 180-200+. The dyno equipment's rollers may or may not be rated to handle such high speeds, so most dyno runners will prefer 4th gear which strikes a reasonable balance.

Quote:
2) Why don't the dyno runs start from 1000 RPM? Again, this will ensure that we get to peak boost as soon as possible.
The torque produced at such low rpm will be a very insignificant amount, also some of this very low-end torque will be needed to overcome the inertia of the dyno's rollers itself. This loss will lead to skewed figures on the dyno graphs. I am told this is the reason why the dyno equipment disregards the bottom end of the curve and begins logging from 1500 RPM and upwards.

I didn't get the last part of the query saar. Peak boost will be hit either way only once the turbo spools up right?? How can this be pre-poned to 1000 rpm as soon as possible??

Quote:
There's a big difference in when peak torque comes in on the dyno charts (~3100RPM) and what Fiat claims (~2000RPM)
I think the 2 questions above may help us understand this difference better
You're right. There is a considerable difference between Fiat's claimed figures and what came out on the dyno. While some of the delay is due to the small blip on the remapped torque delivery (flat spot around 2300-2500 rpm which will be corrected soon), there will still be some difference with what Fiat claims due to transmission losses. In fact even a stock run of the Punto 90HP engine produced a peak torque at about 2700 rpm, well above what Fiat claims. This is also not due to the drive ratio of the 4th gear, since the machine has been calibrated to run on that setting

Last edited by KarthikK : 31st October 2013 at 00:05.
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Old 31st October 2013, 00:23   #611
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

Nice review Karthik! All this while I wanted to keep my ride in stock and hence I stay away from the remap threads/reviews. I was always concerned about the warranty. But now your review and the one by Crazy Driver has tempted me big time to remap by Dzire. I wonder if any one has remapped their Dzire, I see lots of Swift though. I will get in touch with you to get more information.
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Old 31st October 2013, 10:25   #612
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Default re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tronics

Please see the replies inline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
1. Run was done in 4th gear. They don't just bury the throttle, hit the full rpm and say its done. Its takes more time than normal for the revs to build as the dynamometer controls the load and thus the engine speeds as per its in-built calculations. Anyways, turbo spool time doesn't seem to be an issue here.

If you don't bury the throttle right from the start, or let's say take it till 2000, let it fall back to 1500 and then bury it, then of course it's going to affect the turbo spool. You will notice the same thing while driving - just take accelerate hard up to say 2500/3000 RPM and let go of the accelerator for a moment.
There goes all your boost. You will spend a second or two building up boost when you go back on the throttle.


2. Dyno run starts from idle rpm but its useless plotting the same on the graph since valuable engine torque is used up for building momentum for the dyno.

Plot it from where ever you want, but the run should start from a low RPM.
See the post below from kryptonite, where his Rapid is able to generate boost very effectively even at low RPMs and his torque peak is much closer to the claimed manufacturer specs.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post2882405



Manufacturers like FIAT should be using engine dynamometers to measure the qouted figures. There is a world of difference between the two methods, not to mention the engine itself is not suffering from transmission load and losses. Would suggest not to do an on-paper comparison of the two. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course there are transmission losses that the engine dyno will not see. I'm not talking about those here.
But regardless of what method you use, the profile of the curve should remain the same - it's only the actual values that may differ.
For example, peak torque may go down from 260NM to say 230 NM, but the RPM at which it kicks will remain the same.
And in fact, the point at which you feel the maximum torque remains the same even with the most rudimentary butt dyno


Now- One doubt that I have regarding your post. Can you please explain how we can spool the turbo more effectively if we start from lower rpms? Theoretical reply would be fine. Just for my understanding.

Please see reply to Karthik below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarthikK View Post
It can be done in any gear theoretically. They are usually done in 3rd or 4th gears to ensure that the machine's data logging can take a longer set of samples over the same rpm range (more time allowed). The dyno can also be done in 5th gear, but in some cars, running at high RPMs in 5th gear can lead to speeds in excess of 180-200+. The dyno equipment's rollers may or may not be rated to handle such high speeds, so most dyno runners will prefer 4th gear which strikes a reasonable balance.

Makes sense.


The torque produced at such low rpm will be a very insignificant amount, also some of this very low-end torque will be needed to overcome the inertia of the dyno's rollers itself. This loss will lead to skewed figures on the dyno graphs. I am told this is the reason why the dyno equipment disregards the bottom end of the curve and begins logging from 1500 RPM and upwards.

See reply to CD above.

I didn't get the last part of the query saar. Peak boost will be hit either way only once the turbo spools up right?? How can this be pre-poned to 1000 rpm as soon as possible??

Punto 90HP, as you know, has a VGT, which starts spooling from sub 2000 RPM - probably as low as 12-1300 RPM.
You must understand that boost is a mechanical thing - it takes time to build up and it's current value not only depends on the current RPM, but also on how you got to that current RPM! Were you accelerating like a maniac in 3rd gear or were you cruising sedately in 5th to reach 2500RPM. All these factors affect boost.
I'm not suggesting that peak boost will be hit at 1000RPM - I'm just trying to minimize the turbo lag by starting from very low in the rev range.


You're right. There is a considerable difference between Fiat's claimed figures and what came out on the dyno. While some of the delay is due to the small blip on the remapped torque delivery (flat spot around 2300-2500 rpm which will be corrected soon), there will still be some difference with what Fiat claims due to transmission losses. In fact even a stock run of the Punto 90HP engine produced a peak torque at about 2700 rpm, well above what Fiat claims. This is also not due to the drive ratio of the 4th gear, since the machine has been calibrated to run on that setting

Again, see reply to CD on the engine dyno issue above
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Old 5th November 2013, 12:05   #613
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Default Re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tro

Update on the remap:

Siddharth and Vivek worked on a refined map for me and have given me the new remap to play around with. It feels very, very linear now in acceleration, even more lag improvement than the previous version and the flot spot around 2400 rpm has disappeared. I'm still yet to drive it around on a long distance basis, so will reserve my comments until the Bhadra drive (team-bhp meet planned) this weekend.


Update on the Karlsson black leather interiors:

Tomorrow, the Punto celebrates 1 year of ownership. A coincidence - on this very day, the car will also get new clothes on the inside too - I just received an appointment call from Karlsson that the full leather interior makeover will be tomorrow. It was supposed to be today but I got delayed due to other reasons and had to call it off.

Karlsson will take the whole day tomorrow to ensure perfection in fit and finish (As far as I know, they don't take more than 1 car a day for this reason). The design I have opted for might be a bit loud, but is not gaudy. I wanted something radically different from the sophisticated design in the T-Jet's beige leather seats, and they have promised me something elegant yet sporty.

Only 1 more day to go for what is perhaps the most awaited feature upgrade for me - better interiors/upholstery for a 'sporty' car!

Last edited by KarthikK : 5th November 2013 at 12:08.
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Old 13th November 2013, 14:04   #614
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Default Re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tro

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Originally Posted by KarthikK View Post
Update on the Karlsson black leather interiors:

Tomorrow,
Has this tomorrow not yet arrived!!! The wait is getting bigger and I'm tired of refreshing the page
Wake me up please!
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Old 13th November 2013, 15:23   #615
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Default Re: The Red Rocket - Fiat Grande Punto Sport. *UPDATE* 114 BHP & 250 Nm by Tune-O-Tro

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Originally Posted by hemanth.anand View Post
Has this tomorrow not yet arrived!!! The wait is getting bigger and I'm tired of refreshing the page
Wake me up please!

I was a bit busy travelling over the past weekend and couldn't find time to post the photographs on the thread. I've taken Before / After shots of the upholstery; they just need to be transferred to the laptop and uploaded here. Hang in there, probably a couple of days and I should be able to post the update.
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